WI Julia Ceasaris and/or Son Lived

In OTL, Julia, only child of Julius Ceasar and wife of Pompey, died in childbirth and her son was stillborn; it is said this was the true end of the Triumvirate. What if Julia doesn't die in childbirth? Or what if she still does, and her son lives? Or both live? (Or are these scenarios effectively identical for historical purposes?)
 
Caesarion.

It wouldn't change much though in the way lf the formation of the empire. Caesar still prefered Octavius as his heir.

Surely alliance between Caesar and Pompey last longer. And this unborn child would be much nearer relative for Caesar than Octavius. So this might pretty well prevent or delay civil war and collapse of Roman Republic.
 
The alliance between Caesar and Pompey lasted until 50 and partially into 49 anyway (and there was interest from both sides in at least coming to some mutual understanding). I'm not sure how big of an effect Julia had on this-Pompey had to distance himself from Caesar because it was killing him politically-he had never gained anything from the triumvirate while Caesar and Crassus prospered greatly from it.
 
Octavius was 8 or 9 years old at the time of Julia's death. If she lives, if the baby lives, and especially if Pompey and Julia are able to have additional children, no way Octavius becomes his maternal grand uncle's primary heir.

Pompey might still turn against Caesar and join the Optimates at some point, but the odds are significantly less he'd do so.

Regardless, the butterflies would be enormous.
 
The alliance between Caesar and Pompey lasted until 50 and partially into 49 anyway (and there was interest from both sides in at least coming to some mutual understanding). I'm not sure how big of an effect Julia had on this-Pompey had to distance himself from Caesar because it was killing him politically-he had never gained anything from the triumvirate while Caesar and Crassus prospered greatly from it.

I thought their relationship was clearly broken by 52 BC, when Pompey married the daughter of an Optimate; also, Wikipedia says "the Roman Senate supported [him] as sole consul" that year (whatever that means).

Surely alliance between Caesar and Pompey last longer. And this unborn child would be much nearer relative for Caesar than Octavius. So this might pretty well prevent or delay civil war and collapse of Roman Republic.
Pompey might still turn against Caesar and join the Optimates at some point, but the odds are significantly less he'd do so.

This is why I gave multiple scenarios in the OP -- for example, if Julia survives, then if nothing else that prevents Pompey from marrying into Caesar's enemies; on the other; but if an infant son survives, but not Julia, then Pompey will still look to remarry at some point, and if he is tiring of Caesar...
 
I thought their relationship was clearly broken by 52 BC, when Pompey married the daughter of an Optimate; also, Wikipedia says "the Roman Senate supported [him] as sole consul" that year (whatever that means).
Not necessarily. It signalled an end to the formal alliance, yes, and an attempt by Pompey to win back support with the senators he lost permanently in 59 when he sponsored Caesar and then formed the triumvirate with Crassus and Caesar. You have to understand how horrible politically the triumvirate was for Pompey-candidates he supported often failed, he found his legislation opposed at every turn, and he found alliances he had painstakingly built up among the traditional aristocracy shattered. Crassus and Caesar both gained a lot from the triumvirate-Crassus his coveted eastern command, and Caesar a command in Gaul. Pompey got Spain, but he had little interest in campaigning at this point and what he really wanted was to regain political clout-and instead all it did was eviscerate what clout he had left.

So whether or not Julia survives, Pompey's going to start trying to win back his traditional support, and that means distancing himself from Caesar. Back to my claim that Pompey and Caesar were still on somewhat good terms-Pompey wasn't being hostile to Caesar in 50-49. There's a reason the optimates took strong measures to prevent him from meeting with Caesar like he may have wanted-they feared some kind of reconciliation. It was not in Pompey's best interests to have a civil war and the fact that he was woefully unprepared for it when the time came (I mean, Caesar swept Italy with ease), shows he expected he could come around to Caesar. Pompey would have found it in his best interests to prevent Caesar from being prosecuted upon his return from Rome, since that would threaten legislation that Pompey had largely been supportive of during Caesar's consulship. Basically, Pompey, regardless of what happens with Julia, is going to try some kind of middle of the road path, which was a path he had travelled his whole career politically until the triumvirate. It's one that would fail for the same reasons it failed before, but it's what Pompey seemed to be attempting to do.

Of course, events in 50-49 completely spiraled out of either his or Caesar's control so...
 
Of course, events in 50-49 completely spiraled out of either his or Caesar's control so...

Gotcha. So the question is, are the chances of events staying in their control really strengthened significantly if they still share a familial bond (through either Julia or her child)? It may be, in your analysis, that this would make little difference.
 
I'd say it would give them a bigger chance to come to a peaceful argeement ... although if its worth much more than a drop in the ocean ... *shrugs* seems like the entire optimates group was itching for a fight with Ceasar (even as woefully unprepered they were for just about everything), and while not being able to use Pompey as a battering ram / Galleon figure might slow them down a bit, i doubt it would stop them.

Do seem to remember reading that the roman politics doing the 50s was spiralling down even before Ceasar had sat down in a military camp in Gaul, with competing gangs of thugs and bullies fighting the streets between different 'wannabe' consuls, escalating to the murder of Clodius Pulcher
 
Last edited:
Gotcha. So the question is, are the chances of events staying in their control really strengthened significantly if they still share a familial bond (through either Julia or her child)? It may be, in your analysis, that this would make little difference.
I don't see Pompey remaining married to Julia very long (this wouldn't be the first time he's divorced an ally's wife), and that might sting Caesar a bit, but I could see the child perhaps giving them a slightly closer position to work with (Pompey being the father of Caesar's grandson after all might make Caesar a little more impartial to him). This doesn't stop Curio from doing everything in his power to drive a wedge between them in 50-49. This does not mean they actually are being driven apart (that wasn't the case OTL either), but that Curio can raise enough ruckus for his own personal gain and at their expense by playing tough with either Caesar or Pompey and claiming to have the support of the other side (OTL he claimed to have Caesar's support, support he very likely never had). You have to get rid of Curio first, and then you can have a reconciliation over the crisis brewing.
 
The marriage was of course not the key nor the core of the political alliances roman leading aristocrats concluded.

There are several examples of political alliances sealed by marriages that ended in political enmity with or without divorce.

Scipio Aemilianus and his wife Sempronia hated each other and Scipio was a political opponent of Gaius Gracchus and the populares at least from 133 on. Some historians have dated the political drift between Scipio and the Gracchi as early as 142, because the Gracchi had historically been allies of the Claudii Pulchri before the marriage between Tiberius Gracchus the father and Cornelia Scipionis, one of the two real daughters of Africanus.
However, Scipio Aemilianus and Sempronia never divorced.

Pompey's optimate friends already urges him divorcing from Julia as early as 57.

But I disagree with slydesertfox on the fact that Pompey ended his alliance with Caesar because it was supposedly killing politically.

Pompey gaines much from the Triumvirate although he gained less than Caesar in proportions.

The Triumvirate served Pompey's goals.
First of all It saved Pompey from the risk of political extinction he faced in 61/60 when most of the political stage was banding against him.

Then, in 56/55, Pompey understood that the Triumvirate remained his best option and that all the optimates would bring his own downfall the moment after he dropped Caesar if he ever stopped Caesar. The fact is that Caesar was a lawful ally. And that's certainly the main reason for the reconduction of the Triumvirate, a very political decision in which the real love Pompey felt for Julia was certainly marginal.

The Triumvirate finally ended because Pompey decided that he could audition his support with Caesar's enemies in order to strengthen his own position. Cicéron had perfectly understood that Pompey acted this way because he could not stand the idea that Caesar would become his equal on the political stage thanks to the prestige of his gallic conquests and his popularis stance. Pompey miscalculated and pushed Caesar in a corner, committing this way the same mistake ad Marius committed against Sulla when he had Sulpicius Rufus deprive him of his asian proconsulate.
Caesar was really ready to negotiate and to compromise but he would never accept humiliation and political extinction. That was the cause of the civil war : the declining First man in Rome (Marius in 88, Pompey in 50) who outs a terrible mess and provokes a chaîne reaction because he miscalculates in order to retain the lead on the political stage.

Now, if Julia had lived and her son lived, It would not have prevented a breach with Caesar, nor maybe even the civil war.

The son of Pompey and Julia's destiny was probably to be adopted by his material grandfather. Pompey already had 2 adult and healthy sons by Mucia : he did not need a third son keeping his name.

But It would certainly dramatically change the world's fate because Caesar would never have adopted Octavian if he had had an adoptive son, his real grandson, bearing the name of Gaius Julius Caesar.

Hindsight is very deceptive. However intelligent Octavian was as a teenager, nobody, absolutely nobody (including Caesar) could guess how extraordinary was his potential, nor how he would reach an extraordinary position of power. The young man had a poor health. He even was literally a coward and a military non-entity. There were other brilliant teenagers in the roman nobility.

Besides, I have already explained (based on several historians among whom Luciano Canfora) on this forum that Octavian certainly was a temporary heir, and not the first one.

Caesar's first known heir was Pompey from 59 to 49/48 (cf. Caesar's will which he made public during the civil War.

Then, Caesar's secret heir probably was his cousin Sextus Julius Caesar, the grand son of the consulship of 91 who was Caesar's uncle. This Sextus Julius Caesar was born around 78 and he was murdered in 46 in Syria where he was the caesarian Governors. And guess what, 46 is precisely the date when Octavian appears on the political stage.
Augustan propaganda has tarnished his memory probably because Octavian had to destry the idea that there could have been another heir and that he was not predestined by the Gods to rule the roman empire.
 
Top