WI: China manages to expand into Middle East, Islam influence curved?

Ganon

This question is not for a timeline, but just a pure WI question based on a timeline I read long ago & my own thoughts.

I remember reading a timeline where when China events gunpowder (or whatever it was called), it did not take long for them to realize it could be used in weapons and not just fireworks. This allowed them and their neighbors to take the role the west did in world history. Part of this included controlling the holy city, and when Muslims started to give the Dynasty at the time trouble, either destroyed the stone and it's mosque or destroyed/severely wrecked the city to show how sever they were willing to be. This was presented as one of the major reasons that followers were so minor in the 'present'

So my first question is that regardless of how, do you think this can written as a believable outcome? From what I read of China, their dynasty's were not kind to those that caused trouble. Hell, a stranded response seemed to have be if you caused trouble, you, your family, and half the time the extended family, were dead.

My second question is that did Islam get lucky in it's early spread that it either didn't encounter a ruler of a non-Islamic region or have Muslims and it's holy cities under the control of a government that was willing to take such...extreme and harsh measures to keep the status quo? (like the ones China was willing to in the timeline)
 

cubefreak123

Banned
Ganon said:
This question is not for a timeline, but just a pure WI question based on a timeline I read long ago & my own thoughts.

I remember reading a timeline where when China events gunpowder (or whatever it was called), it did not take long for them to realize it could be used in weapons and not just fireworks. This allowed them and their neighbors to take the role the west did in world history. Part of this included controlling the holy city, and when Muslims started to give the Dynasty at the time trouble, either destroyed the stone and it's mosque or destroyed/severely wrecked the city to show how sever they were willing to be. This was presented as one of the major reasons that followers were so minor in the 'present'

So my first question is that regardless of how, do you think this can written as a believable outcome? From what I read of China, their dynasty's were not kind to those that caused trouble. Hell, a stranded response seemed to have be if you caused trouble, you, your family, and half the time the extended family, were dead.

My second question is that did Islam get lucky in it's early spread that it either didn't encounter a ruler of a non-Islamic region or have Muslims and it's holy cities under the control of a government that was willing to take such...extreme and harsh measures to keep the status quo? (like the ones China was willing to in the timeline)
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The Mongols were incredibly harsh on people who caused trouble and showed it during their conquest of Persia and other parts of the Middle East. The Mongols used a lot of Chinese troops and tech in their conquests so I'm not sure if that answers your question.

If you haven't already, look up the Mongol conquest of Baghdad. The city was the center of Islam at the time of its Golden Age but when the city resisted the Mongols they ended doing pretty much what you described: slaughtered the city's population, destroyed many ancient texts, and burned and looted government buildings and mosques. There are also accounts that state that the caliph in charge of the city was forced to watch the slaughter before being put into a bag or rug and then repeatedly run over by horses until he was paste; no, I am not kidding. Just to add insult to injury, they also salted the earth so that nothing would ever grow again.

But if you're wanting this to all happen via China much earlier than OTL then I don't see that happening. It's way too far away and both sides considered the other to be a valuable trading partner. I think I remember seeing the story you're talking about and it was a total China-wank (or is it Sino-wank?).
 

Ganon

But if you're wanting this to all happen via China much earlier than OTL then I don't see that happening. It's way too far away and both sides considered the other to be a valuable trading partner. I think I remember seeing the story you're talking about and it was a total China-wank (or is it Sino-wank?).
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I just used China because that was country in the timeline. Now what you say sounds like what I was my thinking, but I think there's a difference between seeing it during an invasion and done as the first sign of trouble-even minor-that would effect Islam survival.

And ya, from what I remember of it, it would fall as China-wank. I found it on the Wikipedia, I think.
 

WhatIsAUserName

Ganon said:
This question is not for a timeline, but just a pure WI question based on a timeline I read long ago & my own thoughts.

I remember reading a timeline where when China events gunpowder (or whatever it was called), it did not take long for them to realize it could be used in weapons and not just fireworks. This allowed them and their neighbors to take the role the west did in world history. Part of this included controlling the holy city, and when Muslims started to give the Dynasty at the time trouble, either destroyed the stone and it's mosque or destroyed/severely wrecked the city to show how sever they were willing to be. This was presented as one of the major reasons that followers were so minor in the 'present'

So my first question is that regardless of how, do you think this can written as a believable outcome? From what I read of China, their dynasty's were not kind to those that caused trouble. Hell, a stranded response seemed to have be if you caused trouble, you, your family, and half the time the extended family, were dead.

My second question is that did Islam get lucky in it's early spread that it either didn't encounter a ruler of a non-Islamic region or have Muslims and it's holy cities under the control of a government that was willing to take such...extreme and harsh measures to keep the status quo? (like the ones China was willing to in the timeline)
Click to expand...
What timeline was this?

Anyways, it couldn't work because by the time fireworks were invented in China (Tang-Song Dynasties), Islam was already decently established in the Middle East and North Africa. Not to mention that no Chinese Dynasty in that period would be interested in conquest as far as the Arabian Peninsula. Maybe Central Asia at most.
 

HanEmpire

Perhaps China doesn't go through the traumatic disintegration of the Han Dynasty, instead experiencing relative stability that allows the Emperor to try and control greater portions of the Silk Road? Cutting out the middle men in that lucrative trade route would bring a lot of wealth to the Empire.
 

profxyz

It's a bit disingenuous to say that China didn't realize that gunpowder could be used for the military. They did realize that, as early as during the late Tang Dynasty - certainly by the Song Dynasty (900) they had fire lances.

OK, the problem with China in the late 900 (which is where I think you want your PoD to be, rather than during the Tang or the Ming) are as follows:

1) Song Dynasty was anti-military, as a result of the trauma of the collapse of the Tang Dynasty, where military garrisons accrued more and more power to the detriment of the central government;

2) Song Dynasty's rise coincided with the rise of advanced ironworking tribes such as the Khitans (Liao), the Tanguts (Xi Xia) and the Jurchens (Jin). These blocked off the Silk Road from Chinese expansion.

3) Song Dynasty was a bureaucratic empire in which the Emperor was closer to primus inter pares than any other dynasty (indeed, any other Chinese regime on the mainland) was. And the bureaucracy didn't like fighting.

I think the best way for this scenario to work, therefore, would be to furnish some sort of 'warrior ethos' within the Chinese bureaucracy. Maybe the Song Dynasty coopts the Khitans and Jurchens into the government; maybe the Khitans and Jurchens are never satisfied with tribute and so the Song Dynasty is forced to adopt a stronger position against them, or to seek allies further afield.

Most likely you'd have Song naval diplomatic expeditions at first to seek potential allies against the Central Asians; the Arab world would be the natural partner in this affair. So some emissaries go to Transoxiana with some cash and hire a couple Turkish mercs, they trap and destroy the Khitans/Jurchens in a pincer movement, and the Song extends its reach to Mongolia and the Tarim Basin. Then maybe some sort of Han romanticism takes hold of the Chinese bureaucracy, and they try and recreate the situation under the Tang, when Central Asia submitted to them. One thing leads to another and eventually you have Chinese/Turkic forces pouring into Persia and the fractured Arab world.

The reputations of Chinese dynasties (torture/death by association) you talk about are more applicable to the later Ming and Qing dynasties, where imperial absolutism was taken to its peak. The Tang and Song before them were relatively lenient due to the literati and nobility-dominated bureaucracy: indeed, the Song had the unspoken rule of "no intellectual will be executed", and amnesties/retrials for the death penalty were very common.
 
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Ganon

The Easternized World Timeline
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Ya, that is it.

Again, my memory is fuzzy, I just remember that quick and severe punishment by China/whoever controlled the region in it's early centuries basically prevent it from becoming even a shadow of it's current self. Thus I wonder if ultimately this type of response, regardless of who, would realistically be able to accomplish this.
 

MrNumbahOne

Emperor Julian said:
The Easternized World Timeline on the Alternate History Wikia. It's a bit hard to judge the plausibility of the conquest, since it's 250 years after the POD, with those years just being summarized as "China advances significantly more compared to OTL"
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Hmm sounds interesting. Regarding the plausibility, is the timeline classified as ASB or Before 1900?
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

One word: logistics

How the heck are the Chinese supposed to support an army that far from home? Especially a gunpowder and gun based one.

Even if they did, somehow, what stops the general from setting himself up as emperor?

Could you get a Chinese based dynasty in Iran, say? Maybe. Could Iran ever become part of China? Not unlike railroads.
 
wcv215

wcv215

Emperor Julian said:
It is on the Wiki, where it isn't classified as ASB. The tale of how it conquered most of Asia or ruled it is very vague, so its plausibility is hard to judge.
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It has China ruling a good deal of Siberia in the 1200s. It has no explanation for the magical technological development that occurred other than "it happened". There is no explanation for the logistics behind this empire. It's ASB.
 

HunterX

Chinese direct rule in the Middle East borders on ASB due to the logistics and geography of it. Temporary or indirect rule in Central Asia yes, but beyond that you need modern technology.
 

democracy101

Emperor Julian said:
It is on the Wiki, where it isn't classified as ASB. The tale of how it conquered most of Asia or ruled it is very vague, so its plausibility is hard to judge.
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Different websites have different standards, and if that author had posted his timeline here instead (possibly even back in late 2007, according to the edit history), he would almost certainly have been thoroughly criticized from all sides. The majority of the timelines on that website tend to focus much more on the dates in question than attempting to systematically flesh out the details, which might work well for an outline, but does very little to thoroughly tackle the various cultural, social, political, and technological aspects.

If you look at the talk page, the author also seems to have based his scenario largely on the Mongol Empire's expansions, but ignores the fact that two major civil wars broke out only 33-5 years after Genghis Khan's death due to four separate regions struggling for influence, shattering its unity soon afterward. In addition, nomadic entities tend to be much more mobile when transferring troops to the battlefield, due to smaller populations and fewer resources, which cannot be directly applied to any unified Chinese dynasty. He also brings up Russia's eastern expansions, but fails to realize that most of Siberia had been (and still is) sparsely populated, minimizing local resistance, not to mention that regional governors would not have had access to a significant population base to declare independence from the central government. As a result, neither analogy is particularly applicable.

On that note, his PoD essentially entails butterflying away the An Lushan Rebellion, but given the fact that the general had a large following soon after the revolt broke out, along with various autonomous governments springing up across the country even after the uprising had been quelled, it would essentially have been inevitable by the mid-late 8th century for a general to declare independence. He also states that most of the Central Asian entities had been subjugated within a year, and towns were set up soon afterward, which is virtually impossible given the fact that the steppes were not particularly conducive to widespread settlement, which would force the Tang to invest a significant amount of resources just to retain the newly obtained possessions, while the nomads can simply retreat to other bases in order to resume systematic raids soon afterward. In addition, there is also the growing possibility of other states capturing advanced weaponry during battles, which would gradually negate the Chinese technological advantage over time.

As a result, even if China somehow manages to subjugate Central Asia, given the consequences of the An Lushan Rebellion IOTL, generals begin heading west will face stiff resistance from a large foreign population having minimal cultural ties with China, not to mention the Muslims potentially using gunpowder after capturing it in battle. The generals themselves could also decide to create a new dynasty in Central Asia with well over 100,000 troops in order to overthrow the Tang, similar to what had occurred IOTL.
 
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