MotF 86: The Pen is Mightier - Voting thread

Whose map was best?

  • Zaius

    Votes: 16 20.3%

  • Olthy

    Votes: 11 13.9%

  • Dom Jao II

    Votes: 12 15.2%

  • Pischinovski

    Votes: 21 26.6%

  • Nanwe

    Votes: 19 24.1%
  • Total voters
    79
  • Poll closed .

Nanwe

Voted for Olthy. While all entries were really good, his entry had a je ne sais quoi that really appealed to me.
 

Snaut

Damn you. In a normal round I could have at least fairly easily decided which maps (besides my own of course) I would definitely not vote for, but even this has been denied to me. Really excellent work, all four of you.
 
iori

iori

All the maps were good aesthetically and all of them had atleast moderately entertaining backstories, but in the end my vote when to Zaius, as I liked the Alliance System dranw onto the map.
 
Alvar_13

Alvar_13

Voted for Nanwe because I thought that this map took longest amount of time to make and it was one of my firsts
 

Enigmajones

My only problem with Nanwe's map, is that the butterflies are a tad to selective. Why is Italy's domination over Albania accepted? They received Vlore and a portion of Albania IOTL (Sphere of Influence wise) but were unable to hold it. What was different ITTL? Also, why is Hitler deported? He was never in any danger of being deported from Germany as far as I know, as even at the time, Austrians thought of themselves as Germans and Vice Versa.
 

Nanwe

Enigmajones said:
My only problem with Nanwe's map, is that the butterflies are a tad to selective. Why is Italy's domination over Albania accepted? They received Vlore and a portion of Albania IOTL (Sphere of Influence wise) but were unable to hold it. What was different ITTL? Also, why is Hitler deported? He was never in any danger of being deported from Germany as far as I know, as even at the time, Austrians thought of themselves as Germans and Vice Versa.
Click to expand...

Oh, they were able to hold it. I just didn't show it in the map, because it was meant to be a simple, "school" map. While Italy herself is indeed overextended, Albania is smaller than OTL and Italy is slightly more stable in particular because D'Annunzio never takes over Fiume. Also as Vittorio Emmanuele never departed the negotiations of the Treaties, he counts with the support of a France already abandoned by the US and a Britain keen on returning to "splendid isolation" which needs allies in Europe.

I'll explain. In 1923, Bavaria established special courts that were illegal according to federal German law. Who was to to judge Hitler became a certain way of fighting the conflict between the social democrat-led government in Berlin and the arch-conservative government in Munich. OTL, they reached the agreement that these special courts would be dissolved in exchange, the Bavarians would judge him themselves. But TTL, they don't reach any agreement and as a result, Hitler is judged in a Berlinese court, that while conservative, would be less keen on being nice than one in Bavaria, where Hitler-friendly people, like the Thule society were powerful. And as he wasn't a German citizen, deporting him would be easy.

What does Austria feeling German have to do with anything? While true, it wouldn't change the fact that the party in government, the CZP was anti-Anschluss, as opposed to pretty much every other party in Austria.
 
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Enigmajones

Nanwe said:
Oh, they were able to hold it. I just didn't show it in the map, because it was meant to be a simple, "school" map. While Italy herself is indeed overextended, Albania is smaller than OTL and Italy is slightly more stable in particular because D'Annunzio never takes over Fiume. Also as Vittorio Emmanuele never departed the negotiations of the Treaties, he counts with the support of a France already abandoned by the US and a Britain keen on returning to "splendid isolation" which needs allies in Europe.
Click to expand...
Okay, I get that without the whole Fiume incident, D'Annunzio and the Fascists never take hold as a major force, but surely the Fascio fighting clubs would still form amongst the veterans of the war, who are still upset at the lack of reward that Italy receives ITTL, which is similar to what happened IOTL, but without a central event to coalesce around, I can understand that they would remain what they were initially, far right irredentists and social reactionaries without a base of power.

And actually, Im asking how exactly Albania remains an Italian protectorate, considering that all attempts in OTL failed miserably, up until the Second World War at least.

I'll explain. In 1923, Bavaria established special courts that were illegal according to federal German law. Who was to to judge Hitler became a certain way of fighting the conflict between the social democrat-led government in Berlin and the arch-conservative government in Munich. OTL, they reached the agreement that these special courts would be dissolved in exchange, the Bavarians would judge him themselves. But TTL, they don't reach any agreement and as a result, Hitler is judged in a Berlinese court, that while conservative, would be less keen on being nice than one in Bavaria, where Hitler-friendly people, like the Thule society were powerful. And as he wasn't a German citizen, deporting him would be easy.

What does Austria feeling German have to do with anything? While true, it wouldn't change the fact that the party in government, the CZP was anti-Anschluss, as opposed to pretty much every other party in Austria.
Click to expand...

Ah, thats what I thought (in reference to him being tried in a government court instead of Bavaria), although it's my opinion that Hitler would not have been able to form the Kampfbund that allowed him to attempt the Beer Hall Putsch if it wasn't for the inspiration provided by the March on Rome in 1922. Ignoring that though, my point about him being Austrian would be that IOTL, it's been stated that Hitler received such a light sentence not because of the Bavarian courts far right tendencies, but because of his speaking ability and his uncovering of Gustav Ritter von Kahr's plot with von Lossow and von Seisser to establish Bavaria as separate from the Weimar government. What I was saying is that the idea that Hitler would be expelled from the country seems out of character. Giving a much harsher prison sentence and similar bans on the NSDAP seem more likely. Especially considering his past service to Germany in WW1, and his post war service for the Reichswehr.

I don't quite get what the CZP has to with anything, but I suppose that might have been confusion due to me bringing up the Austrian POV.
 

Nanwe

Enigmajones said:
Okay, I get that without the whole Fiume incident, D'Annunzio and the Fascists never take hold as a major force, but surely the Fascio fighting clubs would still form amongst the veterans of the war, who are still upset at the lack of reward that Italy receives ITTL, which is similar to what happened IOTL, but without a central event to coalesce around, I can understand that they would remain what they were initially, far right irredentists and social reactionaries without a base of power.
Click to expand...

But actually that's the point. Italy does get practically all it wanted, in part because it demanded less and better (Fiume over Northern Dalmatia). I do realize having the Italians not mess up such historical occasion is borderline ASB though :p

Enigmajones said:
And actually, Im asking how exactly Albania remains an Italian protectorate, considering that all attempts in OTL failed miserably, up until the Second World War at least.
Click to expand...

That I couldn't say. This map is sort of a seed for an idea I have for a TL, but sadly I am having trouble finding information about interwar Italy (especially pre-Mussolini, so between 1919-1922) and interwar France. That is a weak point in the map, sadly.

Enigmajones said:
Ah, thats what I thought (in reference to him being tried in a government court instead of Bavaria), although it's my opinion that Hitler would not have been able to form the Kampfbund that allowed him to attempt the Beer Hall Putsch if it wasn't for the inspiration provided by the March on Rome in 1922. Ignoring that though, my point about him being Austrian would be that IOTL, it's been stated that Hitler received such a light sentence not because of the Bavarian courts far right tendencies, but because of his speaking ability and his uncovering of Gustav Ritter von Kahr's plot with von Lossow and von Seisser to establish Bavaria as separate from the Weimar government. What I was saying is that the idea that Hitler would be expelled from the country seems out of character. Giving a much harsher prison sentence and similar bans on the NSDAP seem more likely. Especially considering his past service to Germany in WW1, and his post war service for the Reichswehr.
Click to expand...

While without Mussolini's example, it's true they won't attempt per se a march on Rome at some point the hotbead of reactionary, fascist, ultra-nationalist and anti-Semitic that Munich was was going to explode one way or another and Hitler was just too darn charismatic and good at rhetorical speech as not to win over the DAP. Also, even if he does not try to march on Berlin by November 8th 1923, the situation of Bavaria being practically in open revolt against the Reich was not all that linked and I think Hitler, who was not just yet good at waiting, would have gone ahead nonetheless. Plus he still had the support of Ludendorff.

Umm, your solution also seems possible. The idea of the ban came from A.J. Nicholls's Weimar and the Rise of Hitler and well he mentioned that a Prussian court would have been most likely to ban him than a Bavarian one. But my idea was simply to get rid of him.

Enigmajones said:
I don't quite get what the CZP has to with anything, but I suppose that might have been confusion due to me bringing up the Austrian POV.
Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry, I got confused :eek:
 

Enigmajones

Nanwe said:
That I couldn't say. This map is sort of a seed for an idea I have for a TL, but sadly I am having trouble finding information about interwar Italy (especially pre-Mussolini, so between 1919-1922) and interwar France. That is a weak point in the map, sadly.
Click to expand...

I get it, I just find butterflying the Fascists completely would be amiss. I do agree though, without D'Annunzio's antics the Fascists wouldn't have the ability to form a coherent movement capable of actual action. Hell IOTL Mussolini basically bluffed his way into power, it's not impossible to think that the powers that be would hold the Fascist down without problem.

While without Mussolini's example, it's true they won't attempt per se a march on Rome at some point the hotbead of reactionary, fascist, ultra-nationalist and anti-Semitic that Munich was was going to explode one way or another and Hitler was just too darn charismatic and good at rhetorical speech as not to win over the DAP. Also, even if he does not try to march on Berlin by November 8th 1923, the situation of Bavaria being practically in open revolt against the Reich was not all that linked and I think Hitler, who was not just yet good at waiting, would have gone ahead nonetheless. Plus he still had the support of Ludendorff.

Umm, your solution also seems possible. The idea of the ban came from A.J. Nicholls's Weimar and the Rise of Hitler and well he mentioned that a Prussian court would have been most likely to ban him than a Bavarian one. But my idea was simply to get rid of him.
Click to expand...

I agree that the situation in Bavaria is to flammable not to ignite, however I disagree with the assertion that with the POD that occurs, the Beer Hall Putsch would occur as OTL. While the Nazis and Hitler would be a dominant to middling power in Bavaria, without the March on Rome, I could see the more reactionary elements taking the day, Bavarian separatism was quite large at the time, as well as those who supported restoring the Wittelsbach family to the throne of Bavaria.

Another possibility could be for Von Kahr to be more witty when talking with Hitler. Now he was an arrogant son of a bitch, but if if Seisser or Lossow could have intruded, or convinced him of the tactics superiority, they could have promised to "aid the National Socialist revolution of Germany" by ordering the regiments of the Reichswehr and the Bavarian State Police to begin the march on Berlin to restore a true nationalist government. Only, when the troops actually come out, they are fully aware of their superiors intentions, and massacre the Nazis assembled mass. Hitler and a whole lot of Nazis would die, before anything could happen. Then, if you wanted to expand on the fall of far right politics in Germany, the Bavarian government could actually attempt to secede and get crushed by the actual Reichswehr. However that might cause a civil war.

But if you keep the Beer Hall Putsch, banning him from taking an active role in politics would likely kill the Nazi's as we know them. I know I sound like I work for a Strasserist lobby, but seriously, Gregor Strasser had serious traction and you could see the Rhine and Northeast Germany become the Nazi heartland with a bit more red. But obviously Im big on Strasser.
Obviously, this is just my take and any timeline is up to you in the content area. I like the map, just had some problems with the TL background.
 
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