Communist CSA - Details?

I'm working on a story thirty years after the CSA undergoes a communist revolution following the Bol Weevil wiping out the cotton crop. I'm trying to work out some details about the nation and the society that might arise.

The CSA lost Virginia, southern Florida and all thier land west of the Mississippi to the Union following the revolution. The revolution itself had the low class whites and the black slaves uniting against the Planter upper class.

What would the Communist CSA call itself?

What Southern figures from OTL (I'm ignoring the butterfly effect for the story) might take various rolls in the Communist government?

What are the odds that they will attract northern communists (like Eugine V Debbs or Upton Sinclair) to immigrate to the Communist CSA. Maybe communists immigrants from abroad as well?

Would they make racial integration one of the goals of the regime? Perhaps offering incentives for the blacks and whites to intermarry?

What effect on the USA would having a Communist CSA next door have on the nations culture and politics?

thekingsguard said:

I'm working on a story thirty years after the CSA undergoes a communist revolution following the Bol Weevil wiping out the cotton crop. I'm trying to work out some details about the nation and the society that might arise.

The CSA lost Virginia, southern Florida and all thier land west of the Mississippi to the Union following the revolution. The revolution itself had the low class whites and the black slaves uniting against the Planter upper class.

What would the Communist CSA call itself?

What Southern figures from OTL (I'm ignoring the butterfly effect for the story) might take various rolls in the Communist government?

What are the odds that they will attract northern communists (like Eugine V Debbs or Upton Sinclair) to immigrate to the Communist CSA. Maybe communists immigrants from abroad as well?

Would they make racial integration one of the goals of the regime? Perhaps offering incentives for the blacks and whites to intermarry?

What effect on the USA would having a Communist CSA next door have on the nations culture and politics?

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There are plenty of names the CSA could have: the Socialist Confederation/Confederacy; The Confederate Socialist States of America (CSSA); The Commune of the Deep South (although that does sound more anarchist).

I don't know much about Southern history and political figures. You might need to give a time (1870s?/90s?).

I don't think Communist immigration will be significant, but the CSSA could clandestinely support Northern communists.

I don't see much of a point in offering incentives for inter-racial marriages. I think they would have to ALLOW mixed marriages, but not encourage them. If a white woman isn't attracted (or vica-versa) to a black man, why make them marry? same with white man/black woman. You'll just get the poor exploiting it with de jure marriages that actually aren't valid. Another problem with that is that racially mixed couples have racially mixed kids. While this isn't a problem in itself, it gives the CSSA an ethnic identity to distinguise the Southerners from the Northerners. This is contradictory to (early) Communism's internationalism.

Again, don't know a lot about American history, but I'll try: I imagine relations between the two, which may have experienced a period of detente, will get worse again. Depending on how militarised the CSA is, they may attack it again to get it back into the fold.

thekingsguard said:

What would the Communist CSA call itself?

What Southern figures from OTL (I'm ignoring the butterfly effect for the story) might take various rolls in the Communist government?

What are the odds that they will attract northern communists (like Eugine V Debbs or Upton Sinclair) to immigrate to the Communist CSA. Maybe communists immigrants from abroad as well?

Would they make racial integration one of the goals of the regime? Perhaps offering incentives for the blacks and whites to intermarry?

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Instead of the naming it the CSSA, which I find to be overused in most communist CSA topics, I'd change it slightly by having it be the "Confederacy of Socialist American States" or CSAS which I find to be easier to say.


If you intend on making the communists focus on racial integration then one interesting person you could use is Patrick Cleburne. He is famous for suggesting to the government of the CSA to recruit black men as soldiers to fill the thinning ranks of their army. I am not entirely sure what his personal opinions were when it came to white supremacy though. He could have made the suggestion because he thought black people where equal to whites or he could have just thought that they could stop a bullet as easily as a white man. Most though see him as a progressive individual for at least suggesting to make black men soldiers. If he remains alive by the time the CSA is independent in wore TL then he could stay around to have more influence later on. Now if the communist revolution is exactly 30 after the Boll weevil event then that will make the year 1922. This would make Patrick 94 years old by then and most likely dead. If he had lived in OTL though he most likely would have married a woman named Susan Tarleton and would have had children with her. Also in OTL Cleburne had an education as a lawyer. So my suggestion is that perhaps you write that Cleburne has a son after the war that gets an education in law and becomes a politician. Then after the revolution the communist try to use him as a tool by taking advantage of his fathers heroism during the war and playing up his action of suggesting to recruit black soldiers to convince the population that black and white integration does not have to be entirely alien to the southern states.

I actually want to write a TL myself that involves the CSA winning the ACW thanks to adapting submarine designs based off those of Narcís Monturiol i Estarriol who was a communist from Spain. Then after the war Estarriol goes to the CSA angrily protesting that they stole his designs and used then to further war and oppression when he himself was a pacifist and created his submarines to help all people. He then makes frequent trips to the CSA during his life campaigning for communism so as to get back at those that stole from him and also to generally help those he thinks are in need there. So because of this I am looking forward to seeing what you write.

Honestly, they might not even bother changing the name. Though Communist States of America would be fun because you get the same acronym and the people don't have to bother with making new logos or belt buckles or anything. It'd be even more hilariously ironic if the battle flag ends up getting used as the national flag. Would make sense if the army helps with the revolution, given that the army was obviously largely composed of poor whites whereas the planters didn't have to join.

There's no real need to change the name. Just the government of the CSA.

thekingsguard said:

The CSA lost Virginia, southern Florida and all thier land west of the Mississippi to the Union following the revolution. The revolution itself had the low class whites and the black slaves uniting against the Planter upper class.

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How do you explain a CSA surviving without all that territory, and supported only by the people with no money in a country that is probably already dirt poor? A Union that gets all that back isn't going to stop until it gets the rest.

Hrvatskiwi said:

There are plenty of names the CSA could have: the Socialist Confederation/Confederacy; The Confederate Socialist States of America (CSSA); The Commune of the Deep South (although that does sound more anarchist).

I don't know much about Southern history and political figures. You might need to give a time (1870s?/90s?).

I don't think Communist immigration will be significant, but the CSSA could clandestinely support Northern communists.

I don't see much of a point in offering incentives for inter-racial marriages. I think they would have to ALLOW mixed marriages, but not encourage them. If a white woman isn't attracted (or vica-versa) to a black man, why make them marry? same with white man/black woman. You'll just get the poor exploiting it with de jure marriages that actually aren't valid. Another problem with that is that racially mixed couples have racially mixed kids. While this isn't a problem in itself, it gives the CSSA an ethnic identity to distinguise the Southerners from the Northerners. This is contradictory to (early) Communism's internationalism.

Again, don't know a lot about American history, but I'll try: I imagine relations between the two, which may have experienced a period of detente, will get worse again. Depending on how militarised the CSA is, they may attack it again to get it back into the fold.

Click to expand...

SPJ said:

Instead of the naming it the CSSA, which I find to be overused in most communist CSA topics, I'd change it slightly by having it be the "Confederacy of Socialist American States" or CSAS which I find to be easier to say.


If you intend on making the communists focus on racial integration then one interesting person you could use is Patrick Cleburne. He is famous for suggesting to the government of the CSA to recruit black men as soldiers to fill the thinning ranks of their army. I am not entirely sure what his personal opinions were when it came to white supremacy though. He could have made the suggestion because he thought black people where equal to whites or he could have just thought that they could stop a bullet as easily as a white man. Most though see him as a progressive individual for at least suggesting to make black men soldiers. If he remains alive by the time the CSA is independent in wore TL then he could stay around to have more influence later on. Now if the communist revolution is exactly 30 after the Boll weevil event then that will make the year 1922. This would make Patrick 94 years old by then and most likely dead. If he had lived in OTL though he most likely would have married a woman named Susan Tarleton and would have had children with her. Also in OTL Cleburne had an education as a lawyer. So my suggestion is that perhaps you write that Cleburne has a son after the war that gets an education in law and becomes a politician. Then after the revolution the communist try to use him as a tool by taking advantage of his fathers heroism during the war and playing up his action of suggesting to recruit black soldiers to convince the population that black and white integration does not have to be entirely alien to the southern states.

I actually want to write a TL myself that involves the CSA winning the ACW thanks to adapting submarine designs based off those of Narcís Monturiol i Estarriol who was a communist from Spain. Then after the war Estarriol goes to the CSA angrily protesting that they stole his designs and used then to further war and oppression when he himself was a pacifist and created his submarines to help all people. He then makes frequent trips to the CSA during his life campaigning for communism so as to get back at those that stole from him and also to generally help those he thinks are in need there. So because of this I am looking forward to seeing what you write.

Click to expand...

9 Fanged Hummingbird said:

Honestly, they might not even bother changing the name. Though Communist States of America would be fun because you get the same acronym and the people don't have to bother with making new logos or belt buckles or anything. It'd be even more hilariously ironic if the battle flag ends up getting used as the national flag. Would make sense if the army helps with the revolution, given that the army was obviously largely composed of poor whites whereas the planters didn't have to join.

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kevvy2010 said:

There's no real need to change the name. Just the government of the CSA.

Click to expand...

hairysamarian said:

How do you explain a CSA surviving without all that territory, and supported only by the people with no money in a country that is probably already dirt poor? A Union that gets all that back isn't going to stop until it gets the rest.

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Thanks for the ideas! More info on my story

The timeframe of the story is (so far) the early 1930s, though I may move it back. The story follows an American agent trying to rescue the daughter of a wealthy supporter of Quintin Roosevelt, who is running for President in the next election. The revolution itself took place in the 1880s or 1890s though.

The name I was considering was either the Confederated Communist States of America or maybe the Confederated Socialist Soviets of America.

As for the borders, I just figured some parts would split following a revolution, others didn't feel much loyalty to the South (ie, southern Florida or Texas) or got taken by the Union during a war the two fought in during the Great War. Whats left is a heavily fortified border along the Mississippi River, which makes the western boundary of the nation, a heavily patrolled northern border along the OTL Kentucky-Tennessee border, and a south Florida that is in essance, Guantanamo on Steroids.

I wondered about the interracial marriaged by the state as a way to esnure unity between the two factions that supported the revolution, the poor whites and the slaves. Plus, it might be good for propaganda.

Interracial marriage is not happening. In fact, I can see a successful Communist Revolt falling quickly into race war.

How do the poor whites reconcile the fact that the blacks are now competing for their jobs? I think the CSA would have fallen to revolution, but I'm sure it would have involved something nastier than just communism. A racist, seemingly (but not actually) fascist bent of communism. Nationalized slaves, anyone?

Plumber said:

Interracial marriage is not happening. In fact, I can see a successful Communist Revolt falling quickly into race war.

How do the poor whites reconcile the fact that the blacks are now competing for their jobs? I think the CSA would have fallen to revolution, but I'm sure it would have involved something nastier than just communism. A racist, seemingly (but not actually) fascist bent of communism. Nationalized slaves, anyone?

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Extreme doubts.

For one, competing with blacks as wage-laborers is far better than having to compete against them as slaves/quasi-serfs.

The simple demographics also mean that the CSA will be majority black by the time of the revolution, and it would be blacks who were the ones most likely to subscribe to such an ideology, espescially if they were employed as industrial serfs/slaves, which would be the increasingly likely necessity.

On the whole, I think that it would be somewhat more evocative of Maoism and Left SR Maximalism than Bolshevism though. Unless there are a signficant number of defectors from the white intelligentsia in the party, which is certainly a possibility.

The difference from the Soviet experience is probably that there would be far less of a chance for full Stalinist totalitarianism. More likely, it would be like Turkey under Ataturk: an authoritarian single-party state, probably with a unifying national leader. Less crash industrialization as a result, unless the CSA itself had adopted full blown absolutist style state security apparatus.

As for names, I'd choose it based on what kind of regime you want it to embody.

If it turns out like China, a People's Republic of America might be the case (and there's no reason why they'd hold onto federalism in all cases. the CSA could be replaced by a unitary state).

If it's more evocative of classic Bolshevism, then perhaps an American Federated Council Socialist Republic would suffice.

In any case, I doubt they'd keep the moniker of "Confederate" or "Confederacy", which would be considered entirely reactionary by the party. Because, let's face it, it's going to be the chosen moniker of slaveholding aristocrats.

Federal Socialist Republic Of America (FSRA) has a good ring to it.

Don't use the word 'Soviet' in the name. Soviet is a specifically Russian term, and makes no sense, especially if the CSA goes communist before/instead of Russia.

Hrvatskiwi said:

Don't use the word 'Soviet' in the name. Soviet is a specifically Russian term, and makes no sense, especially if the CSA goes communist before/instead of Russia.

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It isn't specifically Russian, as it has cognates in many of the other Slavic languages. But yes, avoiding "Soviet" specifically is a must. But we must remember that soviet simply means "council", and radical lefties love their councils.

It depends on what we mean by Communist CSA, really.

Jello_Biafra said:

It isn't specifically Russian, as it has cognates in many of the other Slavic languages. But yes, avoiding "Soviet" specifically is a must. But we must remember that soviet simply means "council", and radical lefties love their councils.

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Then perhaps Conciliar Republic of Southern America?

Evan said:

Then perhaps Conciliar Republic of Southern America?

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Why not the Democratic Republics of America? Or even the People's Republics of America?

Terry Bisson had a somewhat similar scenario in Fire On The Mountain. The POD concerned a more successful John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry. The raid set off guerrilla warfare among escaped slaves which eventually led to an independent black state, "Nova Africa" which eventually became socialist. Whites who were willing to make their peace and live in a socialist society were allowed to stay.

I think that a "communist Confederacy" would be majority African-American.The name and political structure might depend on how the revolution transpires.If it begins in a period with slavery there may be a more black nationalist direction. If it begins in a later, more "apartheid" style Confederacy it still would have a nationalist element but there may be a "liberal" African-American layer, as well as white allies moderating the revolution.

A proposed nationalist name for South Africa IOTL was Azania, but after Steve Biko was murdered that faction withered and the "Republic of South Africa" was kept.

Names for a socialist Southland might be "New Africa", "the Free States of America","the United Socialist States of America", I like the "Free Socialist Commonwealth of America"

Kate said:

Terry Bisson had a somewhat similar scenario in Fire On The Mountain. The POD concerned a more successful John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry. The raid set off guerrilla warfare among escaped slaves which eventually led to an independent black state, "Nova Africa" which eventually became socialist. Whites who were willing to make their peace and live in a socialist society were allowed to stay.

I think that a "communist Confederacy" would be majority African-American.The name and political structure might depend on how the revolution transpires.If it begins in a period with slavery there may be a more black nationalist direction. If it begins in a later, more "apartheid" style Confederacy it still would have a nationalist element but there may be a "liberal" African-American layer, as well as white allies moderating the revolution.

A proposed nationalist name for South Africa IOTL was Azania, but after Steve Biko was murdered that faction withered and the "Republic of South Africa" was kept.

Names for a socialist Southland might be "New Africa", "the Free States of America","the United Socialist States of America", I like the "Free Socialist Commonwealth of America"

Click to expand...

Well, to be honest, I don't think that a Communist CSA would initially be majority African-American in government. Maybe in population, but probably not government. They would barely be literate at the independence and it would depend on how whites let them get educated.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=234183

This is another possible thing that might spark a commie CSA. The Confederacy invades Cuba, thousands of troops get tossed into a meat grinder with nothing to show for it.

There is NO reason why a Communist CSA would suddenly embrace multiracial integration. Communists of that period were about as racist as everyone else. Any revolution that allows for racial intermarriage in the 1920s CSA will be quickly overthrown as you aren't suddenly going to have huge numbers of Southerners (or Northerners for that matter) give up racist thinking just because there has been a revolution. Someone here came up with a Southern Communist state with the slaves held in common by the central government. Looking at what the Communist Movement excused with Stalin I have no problems believing that well could happen. It is certainly more likely than Southerners suddenly giving up racism.

Kate said:

Terry Bisson had a somewhat similar scenario in Fire On The Mountain. The POD concerned a more successful John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry. The raid set off guerrilla warfare among escaped slaves which eventually led to an independent black state, "Nova Africa" which eventually became socialist. Whites who were willing to make their peace and live in a socialist society were allowed to stay.

I think that a "communist Confederacy" would be majority African-American.The name and political structure might depend on how the revolution transpires.If it begins in a period with slavery there may be a more black nationalist direction. If it begins in a later, more "apartheid" style Confederacy it still would have a nationalist element but there may be a "liberal" African-American layer, as well as white allies moderating the revolution.

A proposed nationalist name for South Africa IOTL was Azania, but after Steve Biko was murdered that faction withered and the "Republic of South Africa" was kept.

Names for a socialist Southland might be "New Africa", "the Free States of America","the United Socialist States of America", I like the "Free Socialist Commonwealth of America"

Click to expand...

Any African-American controlled revolution would be quickly put down. If the majority of the members are African-American it will be almost all African-American as the vast majorirty of White Southerners would never join a Black majority party. It just wouldn't happen.