The Phony War goes very bad

Eurofed

Banned
This is a variant of a TL of mine, springing from the same basic PoD, but with a few key differences that make it go in a wholly different direction.

It also gets inspiration and a lot of ideas from this other masterful TL. Although Onkel Willie’s “Great Mistake” has already developed the scenario much better than I could ever do, I made the TL in order to answer a question in the other thread about how the same PoD (Hitler’s death in the Burgerbraukeller assassination attempt) could lead to an opposite outcome. Instead of narrowly defusing WWII, it makes it worse.

The main differences are that Goering survives the assassination, and the balance of power and influence in the British leadership between the various factions (hawkish/dovish, Germanophobe/Sovietophobe) is somewhat different.

Goering survived the bomb that killed Hitler and Hess on November 8, 1939. He was the designated successor of Hitler, according to a decree signed by the Fuhrer in September 1939. Yet that paper was not enough to prevent a power struggle for succession that took place in the following weeks between Goering, backed by the moderate, Wilhelmine Imperialist faction of the Nazi party, Himmler backed by the SS network and the radical Nazi faction, and the army. Goering realized he needed the backing of the army to win, yet he was strongly disliked by the generals (even if they loathed Himmler and the SS much more). He swallowed pride and offered a power-sharing compromise to the generals, by which they would split the positions of President and Chancellor again, with Goring becoming President and a general Chancellor. Since both factions, despite their personal antipathies, shared similar outlooks and programs on many issues (notably foreign policy), the compromise was accepted by the generals and Reichenau was chosen and appointed as Chancellor. Himmler, seeing his own imminent marginalization, tried a last-ditch coup with the support of the SS. The coup however failed and was subsequently easily quashed by the Heer. Himmler was shot, the SS disbanded, the radical Nazi faction purged (as well as Bormann, which knew too much and no one liked).

The new Goering-Reichenau diarchy had a rather different foreign policy outlook than Hitler. They wholly supported the recovery by Germany of all its irredentist claims, including Danzig and as much as of the pre-1914 territories in Poland as they could afford, but they wanted to end the war with the West with a compromise peace if at all possible. Moreover, they deemed Hitler's planned war with Soviet Russia a dangerous folly. Their attitude about the racist Nazi issues was much more lukewarm than the one of Hitler or Himmler: Goring did not really care about anti-semitism (he told "I decide who is a Jew") and neither him or the generals liked Poles, but they were quite pragmatic about such issues. Although they would prefer an alliance with the western democracies and Italy, they were prepared to work with the Soviets too if need be.

Peace offers by Germany were repeatedly made over Winter 1939-40 to Britain, with Berlin hinting readiness to restore the independence of Poland, provided that its historical territorial claims were satisfied.

This brought about a split in the British Cabinet: the peace faction, headed by PM Chamberlain and Halifax, was interested in opening up peace negotiations, highlighting the novelty represented by the new German leadership and moderate offers; the war faction, headed by Churchill, adamantly opposed compromise, remarking how Goering was still a Nazi and the former right-hand man of Hitler and could not be trusted, just like his mentor. The two factions fought to a standstill, which resulted in a compromise about the opening of half-hearted preliminary negotiations to seek time and explore German intentions but with the instruction to stall, while the war would continue.

In the following weeks and months, such "negotiations" took place, with the Germans bargaining their claims down to the restoration of full political independence of both Poland and Czechia, although they insisted on their territorial claims and for their right to deport the Pole population from pre-1914 ex-German territories (less for racist reasons than in order to prevent the kind of Pole irredentism that had troubled the Second Reich) and keep the pre-invasion legitimate Czech government in charge, which was pro-German. The British remained uncommitted and the talks drag on spinning their wheels.

Increasingly realizing the hopelessness of peace talks with the Entente, Germany was forced to explore the necessity of continuing the war with the West to victory. In order to achieve this, Germany absolutely needed to reinforce the friendly neutrality of the Soviet Union, which protected its back and ensured an all-important plentiful supply of commodities. Much less vital, but still seen as quite important, was the friendly neutrality of Italy, in order to protect the southern flank and strategic access to the Mediterranean. Since the expansionist ambitions of the new German leadership were much more moderate than Hitler’s crazy plans, they were willing to draft a sensible compromise about the reciprocal spheres of influence with their partners. A series of diplomatic talks between Germany, Italy, and Soviet Union ensued. Although none of the three dictatorships really trusted each other to begin with, those talks were gradually able to build upon the previous relationships established with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the Pact of Steel to define a rough, but acceptable, definition of spheres of influence, as contingencies might dictate, throughout Eastern Europe and the Balkans. Economic cooperation was enhanced as well and Germany and Italy started an exchange of military liaisons. These liaisons were meant as much as to share experience as to reduce the chance of each partner interfering with each other’s interests, but they were considerably effective at gradually building trust. They were also the seed by which the future Axis large-scale integration and standardization of training and equipment grew.

In due time, during Winter 1939-40, the Soviet Union annexed the Baltic states and started the Winter War against Finland, while Italy, in an alliance with Hungary and Bulgaria, started the Third Balkan War against Yugoslavia. Although both invasions revealed many flaws in the setup of the Red Army and the Regio Esercito, the quantitative advantage of the Red Army was so huge that a temporary stalemate ensued, but in the long term Finland was doomed to defeat. As for the Balkan war, various factors (long-standing preparation by Italy for a war with Yugoslavia, assistance by Hungary and Bulgaria, mass defection of Slovene and Croat troops) ensured that the Italian army was painfully but gradually able to win acceptable success. In the meanwhile both Stalin and Mussolini scrambled to have structural flaws (and incompetent officials) purged from their respecive armies. Germany kept the no-fighting stalemate on the Western front, while it struggled to build up its army for a general offensive and develop a strategic plan more efficient than the old Schliffen Plan.

As months went by, the strategic stalemate plagued the British and French governments, too. The evidence of the German aggression to Poland spreading into an Eastern European expansionist free-for-all by the dictatorships worried the Anglo-French leaders, as did evidence that increasing economic and military cooperation between the three powers indirectly reinforced Germany’s standing more and more and Soviet supplies essentially nullified traditional Entente strategy of strangling German economy with blockade. Soviet attack to Finland had gathered an enormous amount of sympathy for the Finns, and the voices that clamored to help them and oppose Soviet aggression were almost as strong as the ones that called for decisive action against Germany.

The Entente leaders genuinely meant to split the budding German-Soviet-Italian partnership and pull one or two of the three powers to their side against the other(s). But no real agreement could be reached about the preferable target. The Sovietophobe Chamberlain faction favored détente with Germany and Italy and anti-Soviet containment as much as the Germanophobe Churchill faction favored all-out war to Germany and an alliance of convenience with Russia and Italy, while the French government wavered between the two options but opposed any real concession to Italy, which they distrusted, owing to Italian irredentist ambitions. The internal conflict of the Entente unwittingly came out to the dictatorships as a contradictory maze of diplomatic and strategic signals which depicted the Entente as untrustworthy. Eventually, in Spring 1940, it became evident that Finland was close to military collapse (like Yugoslavia), and that the German-Soviet economic collaboration was essential to the German war effort, which brought the conflict to an apex.

As a strange but surprisingly effective compromise between the Germanophobe and Sovietophobe factions, the idea coalesced that a victorious "economic strike" Entente strategy would be to violate the neutrality of Norway and Sweden (if possible with their assent, if necessary by force), in order to seize control of Swedish iron deposits, and send an expeditionary corps to relieve hard-pressed Finland. The second part of the plan involved a bombing of the Soviet oilfields of Baku. This ambitious plan aimed to deny the German war effort of essential iron and oil supplies, crippling it, and basically cow Stalin into submission with a show of superior force. Such plans had been discussed in the previous months, but now they were finalized and approved. Almost as an afterthought, it was also decided to send Mussolini a “warning” against a possible follow-up aggression to Greece after Yugoslavia by sending RN units to “show the flag” in Greek waters, as well as weapon supplies to Greece.

In hindsight about the catastrophic effects of the Anglo-French “economic strike” strategy, it may seem like the work of abysmal stupidity and incompetence, and a thorough negative judgment is wholly justified. But the decision took root into a mix of causes, ranging from Anglo-French imperial arrogance and overestimation of own military potential (and underestimation of the Axis one) as long-standing dominant great powers, conflicting impulses about choice of the main enemy, fear of another long and exhausting conflict like WWI and search for a “magical”, quick solution in a combination of painless economic warfare and quick traditional British-style peripheral strike. Anyway, the dice were cast.

The same fateful day, as the Finnish (and Yugoslav) fronts were getting close to final collapse, and pleads from help from Helsinki to the Entente were getting desperate, Anglo-French bombers took off from Iraq and crossed into Turkish airspace (with the latter’s permission) to bomb Baku on the Caspian Sea. The bombing however was only partially successful and less so than expected or believed by the attackers. At the same time, an 18.000 strong Franco-British force landed in Narvik. As much as Britain and France enhanced their stature in the international public opinion as the defenders of democracy and freedom against the fascist-communist hordes, the political and strategic effects were disastrous.

Notified about the Baku bombing and Narvik landing, Stalin raged and fumed against the arrogance of the “imperialist” western powers (unleashing a purge on the spot of Soviet citizens suspected of sympathies for the western capitalist democracies), then ordered to send the Anglo-French an harsh ultimatum which asked for plentiful reparations, the withdrawal of Entente forces from Norway, northern Syria, and northern Iraq, as well as the end of Entente "aggression" in Finland and Turkey. When Britain and France ignored the ultimatum (deeming it a bluff, with the Red Army crippled by lack of oil), a Soviet declaration of war immediately followed.

In Germany, Goering and Reichenau were awoken to the news and would have ordered Operation Weserübung to begin immediately. However, they were talked out of it when the Kriegsmarine notified that the RN had deployed in the Skagerrak and a German attempt to land in Norway would most likely become a bloodbath. Norway protested the landing and the violation of its neutral status and national sovreignty, but it failed to display an effective military resistance to the invasion. The pro-British economic and political ties run too deep in the ruling elite, although the violation of neutrality stung. The King, Cabinet, and Parliament reluctantly ordered the army to stand down and accepted Entente military "protection" of Norwegian territory, even if Vidkun Quisling and his Nasjonal Samling harshly denounced the surrender to the French and British aggressors. In Sweden, however, the end of Norwegian neutrality was bitterly resented as a violation of the spirit of the amicable end of the Norway-Sweden union in 1905, which had provided for a demilitarized border.

Germany and the Entente turned to the real prize and goal of the Entente plan, Sweden and its iron mines. The Entente asked Sweden ot open its borders, officially to allow Entente troops to reach and rescue hard-pressed Finland, and offering to collaborate to the defense of Swedish territory. On its part, Berlin offered Sweden its military assistance to protect its borders, remarking that the continuation of the status quo was acceptable to Germany, but Entente military presence in Sweden would not. The Swede were divided, the warring factions of Europe were pushing them to pick a side, which would most likely push the losing side to invasion and turn their country in a battleground (as if Soviet invasion of Finland was not frightening enough). The Swedish parties were divided on the course they suggested, while the army was pro-German. In the end, the King, Cabinet, and Parliament decided to mobilize the Swedish army and assume active defense of the borders in all directions while clinging to neutral status as long as possible. This indirectly favored Germany, as long as the iron trade continued.

The Entente was pushed into a dilemma, admitting that the main real objective of the Narwik expedition was a filure, or invade a neutral democracy. Sweden was reluctant to committ and stop iron trade to Germany on its own, nor the Entente trusted the Swede with compliance. Many in the British Cabinet, including the PM, were reluctant to add the invasion of a peaceful democracy to the Entente's growing tally of aggressions, but Churchill had been increasingly wrestling de facto control of the UK Cabinet and the Entente war councils from an increasingly ill, vacillating, and disllusioned Chamberlain. He seemed to be the only one with decisive leadership and ready solutions for everything (no matter how questionable they were) and he swayed his reluctant colleagues with the argument that history justifies the victors and everything was admissable to defeat the Nazis and the Communists (since the Soviet DoW has come in, he had started matching his anti-Nazi firebrand rethoric with his old dusted-off hardcore anti-Communism). Invasion of Sweden was decided. However, the Entente attack infuriated the Swedish public opinion and the Swedish army put on a surprisingly stiff and effective resistance, delaying the Franco-British advance. After a heated debate, the Riksdag voted to accept Germany's renewed offers of alliance and military protection, and so did Denmark. German troops started pouring in Denmark and Sweden, and after some weeks of fighting, the front stabilized close to the Norwegian-Swedish border. The goals of the Narwik expedition had not been attained, the iron mines and Finland were now beyond the Entente's reach, even if the Allies kept Norway as a meager consolation prize. Worse, Sweden had been forced into alliance with Germany, and its considerable resource and military assets were now secured for Berlin. But poor as the outcome of the Northern expedition was, its strategic effects were dwarfed by what was happening elsewhere.

In the following days and weeks the international landscape realigned: Goering and Stalin, in a parallel way, realized that the Entente was apparently serious about fighting to the death to preserve the international status quo, and concluded that upgrading the M-R Pact to a German-Soviet strategic alliance may be necessary to avoid defeat and humiliation. Mussolini had a similar epiphany as well, especially after reading intelligence reports about British messing with the neutrality of Greece, which he deemed to belong in the Italian sphere of influence. He did not dare military action against the Allies yet, with most of the Italian military deployed in the Balkans (even if victory was in sight) so, according to his opportunistic self, he cast his anti-communist prejudices aside and decided to explore the possibility of expanding the Pact of Steel to Stalin.

A extensive round of high-level diplomatic-military German-Soviet talks, later joined by the Italians, took place. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the Pact of Steel were merged into a military alliance (the Tripartite Pact or Berlin-Rome-Moscow Axis). Germany and the Soviet Union, already at war with the western democracies, made their alliance public. Italy signed it as well, but kept its adhesion secret with the assent of its allies, until it could complete operations in the Balkans and redeploy the bulk of its military against the Anglo-French. A rough but effective division of Eurasia in three spheres of influence was agreed upon in a secret protocol, as well as a broad grand strategy scheme for simultaneous offensives in Western Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East (as Ciano remarked in his Diaries, “Today we carved out the Old World like a pig”). In order to build up mutual trust among the three paranoid dictatorships, the German-Italian liaison officer exchange program was expanded to the USSR, also to include inspection rights of border territories and the inclusion of allied expeditionary corps in the respective operation theaters. As much as those measures irked the pride and suspiciousness of the leaders, they were seen as a necessary precaution to avoid violations of the respective spheres of influence, or, worse, surprise backstab attacks. Economic cooperation was also enhanced to signify the beginning of extensive integration of resources, know-how, and industrial potential.

Incredible as it might seem only a few years before, or in different circumstances, owing to well-meaning but inexcusable strategic and political blunders on the part of France and Britain, and the timely rise of a new German leadership, the unholy alliance between Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Soviet Russia had formed and was rapidly consolidating into full-blown military and economic collaboration between the three dictatorships. Soviet manpower and resources combined with German expertise and technology and Italian ingenuity and resourcefulness complemented each other excellently and would prove an unstoppable combination as the world would soon find out. Far from saving the world from the onslaught of dictatorship, the assassination of Hitler and the Anglo-French crusade for democracy, freedom, and international law had only merged its conflicting faces into a terrifying coalescing gestalt.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Small nitpick: Goering wasn't anti-semitic. He reportedly wept every time Hitler made him sweep his areas of power for Jews and helped classify Jewish friends as aryan (that was the source of the "I say who's Jewish" remark). He also saved Milch, a subordinate he hated, by classifying him as Aryan (even changing his birth certificate) and locking his file.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Small nitpick: Goering wasn't anti-semitic. He reportedly wept every time Hitler made him sweep his areas of power for Jews and helped classify Jewish friends as aryan (that was the source of the "I say who's Jewish" remark). He also saved Milch, a subordinate he hated, by classifying him as Aryan (even changing his birth certificate) and locking his file.

Ok, I've reworded that part of the TL to indicate that he doesn't care for anti-semitism. On second thoughts, I've spared Heydrich. He was cruel and ruthless, but pragmatic and competent, and would fit in with the new leadership, differently from the racist loons like Himmler.
 
This is really a worst case scenario compared to your previous one. As I told in a post in the previous thread, instead of having 2-5 million deaths you will now have 200-300 million deaths, even without the holocaust (stopped due to Hitler's death).

And for what? To save face in front of your population? To fight to the death for a territorial guarantee of a country that is already being partitioned and where huge population relocations are already taking place (Poland now, Finland later).

Thw West have forgotten that without Hitler's mad drive to conquer the SU, Germany was quite willing to ally with them (doesn't the M-R pact clue them to this?). Of course quite a lot of Germans still see the SU as the ENEMY, but those in control are far more pragmatic and willing to ally with whoever can guarantee a victory against an intransigent West.

Remember also that Germany still sees itself as a bulkwark against comunism. They may have sold Eastern Europe to the Soviets and the Balkans to the Italians, but in their heads they are still 100% sure that once the Anglo-French have been slapped away, and seeing the SU loom over the Middle-East, they will quickly sign an even harsher peace for themselves, in order to get the Germans onboard and contain (not reverse or make war) the Soviet influence to Germany eastern borders.
 
Wow, scary stuff there. How could the Allies be so... stupid?

Stalin's got to be loving this too. He gets to reap all the benefits, while Germany and Italy are going to take the brunt of the fighting with the Allies. I take it he'll be going after the Middle East, Persia and maybe India?

Japan's going to be a wild card too. Will they join this unholy alliance? You also could concievably see them joining in against it too, siding with the allies in this scenario. I could somehow see FDR sitting down and quietly offering to turn the oil back on if Japan decides to go North, and publicly arbitrating a peace between China and Japan that both sides could accept for now.

Please do keep going.
 

Eurofed

Banned
This map represents the division of the Old World in spheres of influence as devised by the Tripartite Pact. Of course, it does not mean that the Axis necessarily means or expects to be able to annex or conquest or control all of that, in 1940. Rather, it indicates how they plan to divide their various conquests when and if they occur. Adjustments are possible if the actual peace settlement would otherwise unbalance the division (e.g. if Russia does not get China, it nets India as a consolation prize). The New World, Pacific, and Oceania are seen as America's turf.

2yuzsxs.png
 
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In Germany, Goering and Reichenau were awoken to the news and ordered Operation Weserübung to begin immediately. Denmark surrendered almost immediately. German naval forces disembarked troops in Norway under the pretext of fighting Anglo-French aggression. This was indeed the picture among many Norwegian citizens. They saw the invasion of a fellow neutral as unprovoked aggression and sympathy shifted in favor of Germany. The Norwegian army was in a state of utter confusion and chaos about who was the enemy. Resistance was sporadic and uncoordinated. Vidkun Quisling and his Nasjonal Samling seized radio stations all over the country, beginning broadcasts in which they urged the population and the army to welcome the German liberators and resist the French and British aggressors, which pushed many army units (mistaking the broadcasts as instructions by the legitimate government) to start spontaneous armed resistance against the Anglo-French and let the Germans cross without opposition. This allowed the Germans to capture the Norwegian Royal Family, the Cabinet, and Parliament, that reluctantly agreed to surrender. This in turn allowed the German forces to seize the Norwegian territory up to south of Narvik, confining the Allies to the northern part of the country even though they could utilize the mountainous features of the country for a strong defense.

Highly unlikely.

The Norwegians would have cooperated fully with the Entente forces landing in Narvik. Maybe even mobilized because of expected German reactions.

And I have serious problems with seeing an German invasion succede when the British fleet is prepared and ready in Skagerak (wich they probably would be if landings in Narvik went trough).

If you propose Swedish aligment to Germany, and then an follow up invasion of Southern Norway from Swedish territory, your scenario could work. Otherwise not.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Highly unlikely.

The Norwegians would have cooperated fully with the Entente forces landing in Narvik. Maybe even mobilized because of expected German reactions.

And I have serious problems with seeing an German invasion succede when the British fleet is prepared and ready in Skagerak (wich they probably would be if landings in Narvik went trough).

If you propose Swedish aligment to Germany, and then an follow up invasion of Southern Norway from Swedish territory, your scenario could work. Otherwise not.

Ok, I'll make the necessary adjustments later (too tired now). I was imitating the "Great Mistake" here, I'm no military expert, but I was expecting that Norwegia could be less sympathetic to the Entente, regardless of previous sympathies, if they invade first. Belgium 1914 and all that. Do you think that Sweden accepts to join the Axis when Germany threatens invasion, or has to be actually invaded by German forces (means little in the end, they are strategically vulnerable and the bulk of their military resources are busy in Finland, IIRC).
 
Ok, I'll make the necessary adjustments later (too tired now). I was imitating the "Great Mistake" here, I'm no military expert, but I was expecting that Norwegia could be less sympathetic to the Entente, regardless of previous sympathies, if they invade first. Belgium 1914 and all that. Do you think that Sweden accepts to join the Axis when Germany threatens invasion, or has to be actually invaded by German forces (means little in the end, they are strategically vulnerable and the bulk of their military resources are busy in Finland, IIRC).

Im not sure about Sweden, I know to little about Swedish internal affairs :eek:. I dont think Sweden would budge to invation threaths, but could perhaps choose to ally Germany as an defence against the Entente???
And if Germany can access Sweden, an invasion of Denmark is not needed.

Norway OTOH, was for all practical purposes a British vassal state and would bend over accordingly after some mandatory objections and fuzz...

Sensible acts from Britain would be demands of Norwegian partial or full mobilization to withstand any German designs. This in coordination with better British prepeardness in Skagerak would guaranty failure of an German Weserübung (it was pretty close race OTL).
 

Eurofed

Banned
Very interesting TL, Eurofed. Nice to see how I keep on inspiring you :D:p. Anyway, I'd like to see where you take this.

Your opinion on Oddball's criticism of the Norway part ? How does Germany gets itself in Sweden and southern Norway and the Allies out if the Allies beat Germany to the Norwegian gun ?
 
An invasion of Sweden could work, or maybe the Swedes just let the Germans in out of fear of Allied invasion. From there, the Germans can go into southern Norway. I think that'd work.
 
I echo the opinions of Oddball: he's of course more qualified than me to talk about Norwegian politics, but I do know that the Germans ran the Skagerak under the cover of severe bad weather and general confusion at the Admiralty, and a concerted attempt to protect the Oslofjord would probably the landing of more than dribs and drabs too risky.

But I actually find this timeline distinctly plausible! :eek::eek:;) (Note that I do in fact believe that nasty dictatorships are quite capable of winning and Britain losing, I'm merely picky about how.)

Goering's government have clearly moved from the strategy of maybe using the USSR against Britain if at all possible and then attacking it (where the necessities of the attack - Germans in Finland and no Russians in Bulgaria - ruled out co-operation before it could begin) to using the USSR and then letting it stew in ineffectual Bolshevism and all that. Not hard to do, they'd just have to acknowledge the Soviet primacy in Finland and right-of-first-purchase in Bulgaria.

That done... my skepticism about the ability or desire of the Soviets to do anything much beyond their most immediate areas of interest is well-known. I'll be interested to see what happens.

About Sweden: they didn't have any army that could stand up to the Wehrmacht. You can shell Sweden from Denmark no trouble, and there's no-one to interfere with German shipping when they have a port. The Swedes can't last long. However, they had plans to destroy the mines - plans the Entente, if they have time to move into the iron-fields, would certainly put into practice. Like Norway OTL, the Swedish campaign might be an impressive victory that in the long run works against the victor. Regarding which, while a failed invasion of Norway implies losses to naval forces that make Sealion an even bigger joke, no invasion of Norway simply saves the Germans the trouble of garrisonning the place.
 
While it's certainly something Goering would have said, that remark actually originated with Karl Lueger, I believe.

Actually several months ago I read a book about the Battle of Britain that quoted Goering saying that in Germany it was him who decided who was and who wasn't Jew, referring IIRC about Erhard Milch his ( very effective ) second, but in the end it had to eat his words ( as always with this guy ) and Milch had to ask his mother to say that it had cheated his ( Jew ) husband and that he was the son of an "aryan" ... it could be almost funny if it not so seriously sad ...
 
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This is a bad situation. Reminds me of the Panay War.

However, the Soviet Navy will contribute nothing to a perspective unnamed Sea mammal (the Marat and October Revolution probably could not have survived in the North Sea, and would have been easy pickings for the RN if they tried), even if France still collapses.

The United States is still out there as well. Even a combined USSR-German-Italian-Japanese Axis can't compete with a fully mobilized US/CW economy.

The war lasts until 1949 when the US Eight Air Force drops nukes on the last surviving Soviet industrial centers in the Urals...

Mike
 
However, the Soviet Navy will contribute nothing to a perspective unnamed Sea mammal (the Marat and October Revolution probably could not have survived in the North Sea, and would have been easy pickings for the RN if they tried), even if France still collapses.

Absolutely agreed. Moreover, looking closely, this stuff about "expetionary forces", hmm. Stalin is to send stuff to the Rhineland as effective hostages (since that's where the serious fighting where the deployment of allied forces is logistically worthwhile is) and this is necessary to prevent a backstab? Nah. "The expeditionary force need consist only of a single Soviet soldier, and we will see to it that he is killed": that I can buy, but Stalin would never send his resources out of the USSR on Germany's sole behalf, even after an attack. An attack would only make him more paranoid.

The United States is still out there as well. Even a combined USSR-German-Italian-Japanese Axis can't compete with a fully mobilized US/CW economy.

Of course, that depends on what happens with Japan. Soviet supplies are now a possibility for it, but then, the USSR has no interest in allowing Japan to subjugate China. I think the Soviets will at the very least ditch Japan once they feel strong enough.

The war lasts until 1949 when the US Eight Air Force drops nukes on the last surviving Soviet industrial centers in the Urals...

Mike

The Joe and Adolf show will have reached its tragic climax well before 1949, I should think.
 
This is a bad situation. Reminds me of the Panay War.

However, the Soviet Navy will contribute nothing to a perspective unnamed Sea mammal (the Marat and October Revolution probably could not have survived in the North Sea, and would have been easy pickings for the RN if they tried), even if France still collapses.

The United States is still out there as well. Even a combined USSR-German-Italian-Japanese Axis can't compete with a fully mobilized US/CW economy.

The war lasts until 1949 when the US Eight Air Force drops nukes on the last surviving Soviet industrial centers in the Urals...

Mike

But you're forgetting that the US is not in the war and it may never be.
Isn't FDR Sovietphole? How is he going to react to an alliance between Germany, which he distrusts (not hate) and Russia, which he likes (not love) :eek:

And the US congress is still isolationalist by default, lend-lease is only going to last while the French-British have the money or credits to pull it off.

There would never be a NeoAxis-Japan alliance, not while the SU has a vote on it, and the Germans will have their minds fixed in Europe and be deathly afraid of drawing the Americans in.

This means that the Americans will have their hands full with the Pacific war (the Japanesse High Command is still full of crazies "We will win with a single decisive battle" in charge of their nation) due to the Japanesse ocupations of SE Asian colonies.

Especially if the Germans start rolling west of Europe to "pacify" France and the Benelux countries. Even without Hitler the generals that made the blietzkrieg campaign a success on the West are still there, so France fall is still highly likely :D
 
But you're forgetting that the US is not in the war and it may never be.

Isn't FDR Sovietphole? How is he going to react to an alliance between Germany, which he distrusts (not hate) and Russia, which he likes (not love) :eek:

And the US congress is still isolationalist by default, lend-lease is only going to last while the French-British have the money or credits to pull it off.

There would never be a NeoAxis-Japan alliance, not while the SU has a vote on it, and the Germans will have their minds fixed in Europe and be deathly afraid of drawing the Americans in.

This means that the Americans will have their hands full with the Pacific war (the Japanesse High Command is still full of crazies "We will win with a single decisive battle" in charge of their nation) due to the Japanesse ocupations of SE Asian colonies.

Especially if the Germans start rolling west of Europe to "pacify" France and the Benelux countries. Even without Hitler the generals that made the blietzkrieg campaign a success on the West are still there, so France fall is still highly likely :D

Your points in order:

The US will get into the war; it was going to anyway, and even the isolationist movement would have feared a Eurasian Juggernaut.

FDR played his card close to his chest, but he was no friend of the USSR. He would have been happy to supply them against Germany, and, late in life, got...weird...about them, but in 1939-41 he was under no illussions.

Lend-lease will continue well after the Allies can't pay for it...it did in OTL, and here we would be even more desperate to prop up the Allies.

Germany was not afraid to draw the US in in OTL while the Heer was dying in the USSR winter. In this TL, happy-go-lucky Germany will no qualms about it. They'll have a clearer view, so will happily accept Japan into the Axis to allow the IJN to destroy (they think) the USN. As for the Japanese, the 'Northern Option' looks even LESS appealing, so they will go South.

In OTL, the USA devoted 15% of it's total war effort to fighting the Japanese. Our elites were never 'afraid' of Japan - they knew we would win. Here, we'll face about the same as OTL Japan, maybe with more troops freed up from Manchuria, but with 0 additional naval resources. Same result; by 1944 the Pacific is a US lake with the rest our prodigious indutrial might turned against the EuroAxis.

Agreed about France falling; that only scares the US more. Given a POD of 1939, there is simply no way even the Soviet Union can contribute enough to the Axis cause to counter balance the USA. The USA was the strongest country in the world, and while this war lasts longer and kills more, the outcome is never really in doubt.

Mike Turcotte
 
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