Riding the Eternal Blue Sky

I couldn't resist.....seeing as no one HAS (to my knowledge) actually gone about making Tengriism stick....

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In the world affairs of events and cultural change, the 7th century would be marked by the strangely parallel rise of two history changing Empires accompanied by new, sweeping religious change as these new religious doctrines spread by their 'Holy Men-Warriors' central figures who would sweep across the most least densely populated areas of the world to found two of the most central religions in the world and would inspire other leaders to change the course of history as well.

The religion of Islam founded by the Prophet Muhammad centered in Mecca on the Arabian Peninsula would go on to unite the various Arab tribesmen and then move on to sweep across the western Middle East and into North Africa eventually reaching Spain. The religion of NeoTangriism or Diyanatism, as western scholars call the Faith of the Eternal Blue Sky would start with the The Son of Tengri otherwise known as Diyanat (though the nature of his real name is in dispute as Diyanat means 'Piety' but the only occurance of this name is in Persian sources) from Samarkand the Turk of the Oghuz tribes would unite and conquer Transaxonia and then Central Asian as west as Europe, as East as China, as north as Siberia, and as south as the Delhi Plains in India.

The origins of the two leaders are quite very similar in the beginnings. Muhammad a humble merchant and Diyanat the third son of his tribe the Kayi, realtivly in the middle for their status in their socities. Further their beginnings revolve around major urban centers, despite the pastoralness of their backgrounds and creeds, for Muhammad it was Mecca and for Diyanat it was Samarkand which both would transform into the opulent centers of their political and cultural empires. Not only that but both men may have been influenced in part by other outside source cultures as despite there 'pagan' influences, both cities were home to various religions as traders of many influences from Nesotorian Christians to Zoroastrians to Jews to Buddhists and Hindus, who some speculate may have influenced and jumpstarted the doctrines of these men. Both also worked on the previous religion of their region and transformed it, Allah and Tengri being the major deities of the Arabs and Turks and then their doctrine was reformed (as was not Jewish doctrine when Jesus founded Christianity? Or Buddha reformation of Hinduism?) to the point where the previous religious practices were entierly overcome by these men.

As these two men of history made their way both would eventually become the father of their peoples, Muhammad as hailed as being the epitome of Islam but also the modern cultural and nationalistic father of the Arab people and so would Diyanat the epitome of Tengrism is hailed by all as the Atatürk. The founding religion and proto-nationalistic consciousness that both men would found though in the eyes of history would become the fiercest of rivals....

-"Origins of the Nomadic Religious Empires of the 600s" by Dr. Mustafa Kemal (1923)
 
Yes! I helped inspire a TL!

I'm always looking for good sources on Turks and Mongols so I'll be keeping up. Make it work Tomb!
 
I was thinking of something else as I re-read the initial post: Since it's in the 600s you could have some Persian refugees that flee the Arab conquests to give an initial structure to the religion. The trick is to keep them from taking over Diyanat and Zoroastering it.

As a side note from what I've read of Tengriism I would find it very attractive. So maybe Tengri as a world religion would have me as an adherent.
 
Really looking forward to seeing how this new religion will interact with the other new religion, Islam, as well as Christianity and Zoroastrianism.
 
Really looking forward to seeing how this new religion will interact with the other new religion, Islam, as well as Christianity and Zoroastrianism.

I was thinking of something else as I re-read the initial post: Since it's in the 600s you could have some Persian refugees that flee the Arab conquests to give an initial structure to the religion. The trick is to keep them from taking over Diyanat and Zoroastering it.

As a side note from what I've read of Tengriism I would find it very attractive. So maybe Tengri as a world religion would have me as an adherent.

Well in the next post or two you will be introduced to the new 'Laws' of Tengri that our Diyanat recieved, which will play still close to the nature of keeping the 'Harmony' but more strict rules on what to do should someoneelse mess up the 'Harmony'......

Ah as for what I have instore for Persia.....muwahahaha.......

I've already outlined a TL as far as the arrival of the Ghengis Khan in the East, who will play a very interesting role....
 
Interesting. I've never heard of Tengriism, but it sounds good. From the sound of it, you are essentially injecting another, new, major religion into the Middle East. That'll do wonders for its stability, that will...
 
Interesting. I've never heard of Tengriism, but it sounds good. From the sound of it, you are essentially injecting another, new, major religion into the Middle East. That'll do wonders for its stability, that will...

Tengrism was the native shamanistic religion of the Central Asian Turkic and Mongol tribes. It was quite popular among them into the Middle Ages, until the conquests of Genghis Khan (ironically, a Tengrist) spread the Mongols and Turks* around China and the Middle East, where they picked up Buddhism and Islam. Ultimately these faiths spread back into the Mongol and Turkic homelands and Tengrism died out. From the TL, it sounds like Tomb has given Tengrism a prophet to produce a holy book and set of laws that allows it to seriously compete with other established religions. (Though I am curious whether it will be more influenced by the Abrahamic or Dharmic** religions)


*Islamic influence among the Turks had begun much earlier, with importation of Turkic slaves into Muslim areas and the Seljuk conquests.

**The "Dharmic religions" include Hinduism and its various daughter religions like Buddhism and Sikhism.
 
(Though I am curious whether it will be more influenced by the Abrahamic or Dharmic** religions)


*Islamic influence among the Turks had begun much earlier, with importation of Turkic slaves into Muslim areas and the Seljuk conquests.

**The "Dharmic religions" include Hinduism and its various daughter religions like Buddhism and Sikhism.

I'm rather partial to both having influences, as by this period both Abrahmic (Nestorians), Zoroastrianism (And their offshots like Mani), and Dharmic (Buddhists and Hindus) had spread into the area, but still these religions did not spread out and utterly convert the entire populations of Central Asia (though certainly OTL in a few years Islam would become something major in southern Central Asia) so I;d say abit of influence from all three couldn't be bad. I'd say it will not end up being Monotheist but more Henotheist somewhat like earlier Zoroastrianism where Ahura Mazda was seen as the big god with mini gods like Mitra being gods but not so big.
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"Where Diyanat comes into place in history is around the year 622 CE, around the age of 32 for himself, when from oral accounted sources later written down, Diyanat went missing for an entire week, not even the fastest and farthest reaching riders could find him! It was as if he had disappeared from the face of the earth, his father Arslan worried during this entire time-perhaps his son had been taken hostage by a rival tribe? Perhaps he had been beset by wolves or fallen off his horse and was dead?! The possibilities were many but on the seventh day as it is said he returned completely unharmed, riding into the encampment of the Kayi a changed man! It is said he now possessed a glow to his personality and as he rode the shepperding beasts followed him in a single line, followed by a pack of wolves that seemed most tame and a wild goose (a symbol of Tengri) perched on his steed!

His father and family ran to his son and asked where he had been and what had he done! His reply was this "I have ridden across the Eternal Blue Sky!" This proclamation brought both awe and anger toward him as he proclaimed these things, but with a wave of his hand he calmed down the growing crowd around him and with a possession of command not known to him before he continued with what had happened.

He was struck by a strike of lightning, on the nearly clear day, and instantly his self ascended into the heavens of the sky and what he saw was ever beautiful. Drawing in the crowd around him they all began to listen to every word as he described it, which he described very much as earth but only more golden and perfect, where no man, woman, or child is sick and all suckle plentiful on food and drink gifted to them by Tengri. Though all was not well, as he wandered through heaven the sky darkended and from the depths of the earth Er Kishi the dark being in Turkic mythology ascends into the heavens and does battle with the Pure Father Tengri and a titanic battle erupts. Dutiful to his god, Diyanat takes his bow and joins in the attack on Er Kishi, one of his arrows piercing the dark being's eye and causing him much anguish! Tengri uses this to his advantage and strikes Er Kishi casting him out of the heavens and back into his own dark dominion. Turning to Diyanat the god thanks him greatly and immediatly adopts him as his own! Gifting him the command of animals and life once again, Tengri and Diyanat take time though to ride across the sky and across the steppes, while doing so Tengri conveys to Diyanat instructions on how to lead the people and guide them into a new and prospourus time.

Diyanat finishes his account with that he was returned to his mortal body, the animals around him having gathered and protected his mortal flesh! By now most of the people are quite curious as to what the message Tengri conveyed to Diyanat and how to better lead the people to a better life, and so he tells them these new laws becoming the basis of the ideals of his teachings as passed down from Tengri.

Already the goal of all people are to live in harmony with the world around them, to keep to the natural balance of things which can only bring about good fortunes for those that seek to do this as Balancing the Harmony should be a unified goal of the people. All should strive for this common goal which can best be suited through working for the better and unification of one's tribes and the other tribes who confess this belief. The world is in constant change, and so the people may change to better strive for the Harmony but they should not forget their roots and resist those that attempt to change this, which is best described through the practice of the nomadic lifestyle, while if one were to live in the city and take up the plow they can still work for the Harmony and best that they practice the nomadic lifestyle and its 'arts' (Horse riding, archery, herding, and so on) to better keep themselves connected to the natural world.

Those that in their lives keep the Harmony will be rewarded in their afterlife by ascending into heaven and the blissful life for several centuries before returning to life once more, while those who do not contribute to the Harmony will be condemed to spend several centuries within the darkest reach of the earth and El Kishi's dominion.

Further in relation to other people of foreign tounge and gods, peace should first be sought with them, in a live let let sort of quality, but should these people and their culture, leader, and god(s) bring a disbalance into the Harmony through violence then every favored son and daughter of Tengri has the right and duty to fight back to see these people humbled! If they still will not see the Harmony Tengri offers then they must be destroyed and expunged to bring balance to the natural order and peace amongst the peoples!

In times after the death of the Son of Tengri, those who would take these tenants too strict and too literal, even in this day and age, would flock together abandoning all forms of higher technology, including guns and medical advances, as well as be quite hostile to ANYONE not in following with their view on the message from Tengri. I cite the purgings of not only Mazdis, but also Muslims and Christians by the Kajar Tribe in 1694 in the Caucasus Mountains at the behest of Bey Kursi as an example of this.

This would form the basis of the new Gök Tanrı or faith of the Eternal Blue Sky that is Tengriism though at first not all within the Kayi accepted this doctrine turning to the current Shamans of the tribe to verify this occurance. It is said that half and half of the shamans either supported or dissupported Diyanat, but when one such Shaman took to calling Diyanat a liar and strike him-the wild goose perched on Diyanat's steed took flight and the wolves pounced on these men tearing them to shreds! Stunned and perhaps sensing the sudden shift of support, Ayrat the leader of the Kayi declared his belief in Diyanat and immediatly ofered his first daughter to marriage thus Diyanat took his first steps to unleashing the Turkic tribes and the Way of the Eternal Blue Sky on the people of the world!"
-Chapter 1 The Son of the Eternal Blue Sky, Origins of the Nomadic Religious Empires of the 600s" by Dr. Mustafa Kemal (1923)
 
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Interesting: while Arabs occupy a special place in Islam, they are after all a minority in the Islamic world today, and the Turks and Persians have had very major parts in the "islamic saga." In this world it seems that it will be a much more specifically Arab religion.

And one wonders how Islamic government and military will evolve without the influx of Central Asian/Turkish slave soldiers and eventually dynastic founders: will Islam develop something more on the lines of peasant conscript armies, or develop some form of military caste of Arab rather than foreign origins? The Islamic world is less _secure_ than OTL: there were no serious invasions from the east OTL (IIRC) before the Turks came in the 11th century, and at least they were Muslims: in this world, Islam is going to face a serious military AND religious threat from early on.

Arabs, OTL, were increasingly a military insignificance in the Islamic world from the 11th century alone - the real military leadership was provided by slave soldiers of Turkish or Christian origin (converted, of course), Mamelukes, Ottomans, Afghans... very little was accomplished by Arab armies after the times of the Almohads. Things may be rather different ATL...

Egypt may become the heart of the Islamic world early on, rather than more geographically exposed Iraq.

Persia is going to be a battleground. Blocked by land to the east, do the Islamic states put more effort into developing naval capacities in the Indian Ocean? The Silk route is blocked by a hostile religion. Although Muslims traded by sea OTL, it may be more important in this TL: will there be Muslim notions about making an "end run" around Tengriism like Christians looking for sea routes to the East OTL? Will Muslims appear in the court of "Prester John" - the Emperor of China - seeking an alliance against the common Tengriist threat?

Bruce
 
This is awesome. :D

I think it's probable that it will be Tengriism, not Islam, that penetrates the north of India so the interactions with Hinduism will be interesting. Will the Henotheistic Tengriism be more likely to find an accord with Hinduism than Islam?

Also interested in seeing whether Tengriism preempts Christianity in Eastern Europe, Scandinavia and such. Displanting Buddhism in Tibet might also be a possibility.

Hell, Tengriism is in such a location that it will have fascinating interactions with _all_ the major religions of OTL.
 
And one wonders how Islamic government and military will evolve without the influx of Central Asian/Turkish slave soldiers and eventually dynastic founders: will Islam develop something more on the lines of peasant conscript armies, or develop some form of military caste of Arab rather than foreign origins? The Islamic world is less _secure_ than OTL: there were no serious invasions from the east OTL (IIRC) before the Turks came in the 11th century, and at least they were Muslims: in this world, Islam is going to face a serious military AND religious threat from early on.
"Effect of Non-Islamic Turks?" That inspired Tomb. We've talked about different paths the Turks could take, but what I was really interested in was an Islam that didn't HAVE Turks. It's only kind of implied in my first post but the reduction of non-Arab leadership in this ALT was what I was actually hoping to focus on.

I would appreciate it if you would share your thoughts on that thread too. :)
 
This is awesome. :D

Tengriism will have the potential to have highly interesting relations with all the major religions of OTL. Pre-empting Christianity in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia? Supplanting (or perhaps pre-empting at an early point) Buddhism in Tibet? It seems that Islam is likely cut off from a northern entrance into India (though I may be wrong). Tengriist analogues to the Moghuls late in history would be interesting.

I have pity for the Nestorians and Zoroastrians, they seem to be stuck in the middle.

The Tengriist faith, like Islam, seems to have a tolerance-of-other-faiths clause built in to it. This might be helpful in assimilating established cultural zones. If Tengriism ends up as an influential force in China, I can see the concept of Harmony helping to iron out the rough edges of dealing with Confucianism.
 
Perhaps a greater penetration of Islam in Southern India as opposed to Northern India if the Islamic States (more likely their will be a prominence of Egyptian-Red Sea and East African civilizations) do try for the reach around and take a extended stay south of the Decca....

I do think the Tang who are also emerging at this point will be effected seeing that they were often more then enough used Turkics as mercs and generals, even some Han Chinese became 'Desincicized' and nomadicized, the border of Chinese civilization is going to be quite pushed eastward from their west....
 
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Fascinating! Love the historical in-jokes; "Dr. Mustafa Kemal" writing about the great historical Ataturk. Priceless... :D

I agree on the Tengrii-influenced North India and the Islamic-influenced South. Will TTL, with Persia and Mesopotamia beset by enemies and at the fringes of Dar al Islam, see a more Egyptian-Berber-Arabic and less Syro-Persian Islamic culture? Perhaps TTL the "footsoldiers of Islam" will be Berber or even South Indian rather than Turkic.

Similarly curious what Byzantium's fate will be ITTL.
 

Philip

Donor
Very nice. I await more.
In times after the death of the Son of Tengri, those who would take these tenants too strict and too literal, even in this day and age, would flock together abandoning all forms of higher technology, including guns and medical advances, as well as be quite hostile to ANYONE not in following with their view on the message from Tengri.

I do think the Tang who are also emerging at this point will be effected seeing that they were often more then enough used Turkics as mercs and generals, even some Han Chinese became 'Desincicized' and nomadicized, the border of Chinese civilization is going to be quite pushed eastward from their west....

Things could become very interesting for the Chinese.
 
Tengrism was the native shamanistic religion of the Central Asian Turkic and Mongol tribes. It was quite popular among them into the Middle Ages, until the conquests of Genghis Khan (ironically, a Tengrist) spread the Mongols and Turks* around China and the Middle East, where they picked up Buddhism and Islam. Ultimately these faiths spread back into the Mongol and Turkic homelands and Tengrism died out.

Rumors of its death are greatly exagerrated. Apparently it's still practiced by some Mongolian and Siberian peoples.
http://www.tengerism.org/table_of_contents.html

I know because I was also in contact with one of their religious teachers, Sarangerel.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=481.0

Apparently they face some of the same issues that American Indians do, imposters and exploiters who prey upon people's curiousity and search for religious meaning. Claiming to be a Siberian shaman was a bit of a fad for a time in the New Age commercial phenomenon, sometimes leading to outright dangerous cult leaders like this guy.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=466.0
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=566.0

Should be an interesting thread, though I'm not sure how you switch from a tribal religion, which generally make little sense outside of their cultural context, to one claiming to be a unversal religion.
 
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