All Hail Germania (TL Planning)

Once again I'm taking a page out of Dreadnought Jenkins' book:

In planning for my next timeline, I've come to realize I need input on alot of the general ideas that I want to push through in All Hail Germania. The basic idea behind the TL is as follows:

Columbus gets rejected by most of the Royal Courts in Europe and eventually find himself in the Holy Roman Emperor's Court. Maximilian agrees to finance Columbus based with wealth from his dead wife(Mary the Rich)'s inheritance. The Wealth of the new world flows into the Habsburg coffers, and with it they are able to begin to centralize power. The Reformation allows the Imperial Family to finally assume total control, with Philip I converting to Lutheranism. What we know as the "Spanish" Line survives via Balthazar I, who also becomes a Germanic Louis XIV, establishing Absolutist rule and a mythology around the Habsburgs that would have made Maximilian I proud.

Here are major ideas/thoughts I also want to incorporate, and would like some comment on:

Colonization of the New World
Names for North and South America I was thinking of calling one Gottsreich (God's Realm/Country)
Burgundian and later German colonization
Burgundian/Dutch/German Conquistadors
Spain focusing efforts that would have gone towards colonization more toward Africa
Noble Realms established in the New World (Duchies, Counties, Free Cities, ect)

The Habsburg Family
Philip the Handsome Survives longer
Charles V marries Anna of Bohemia and Hungary, Ferdinand I (ITTL III) marries Isabella of Portugal
Philip II (analogue) becomes HRE, Ferdinand I becomes King of Spain (as Ferdinand III)
Balthazar I (analogue) survives to become the Germanic Louis XIV

Reformation
Philip I converts to Lutheranism to finalize Habsburg authority in Germany
This triggers a religious war that also becomes the War of German Unification
Protestant Area (Germany, Scandinavia, Hungary, Baltics, Low Countries)
Possible Protestant Areas (Northern Italy, Spain & Portugal, England, Poland, France, Scotland)
Catholic Strongholds (Ireland [assuming England goes Protestant], Southern Italy, others?)

Random Other Stuff
Balkanized France
Restored Byzantine/Latin Empire in Greece and Asia Minor
Habsburg/German/Protestant Crusade
Kingdom of Burgundy

I am in need of comments and questions.

Hmm, the Lutherrnanism still does not seem to sit quite right. Perhaps a tweaked version resuiklting in German Catholivcc Church in opposition to the Roman Catholic Church?

I think you should have the Spainish Branch remain Catholic. That way the House of Habsburg can dominate both sides of the second Schism.

It still seems likely that you would eventually see revolts opr discontent in the New World. Perhaps have the Reich pull a Brazil and establish a third Grosse Habsburg Reich, across the Atlantic.

new Byzantine Empire, good idea. Making it Latin, bad idea. The Orthox's need a better champion than Russia after all.

Herr Frage said:

Hmm, the Lutherrnanism still does not seem to sit quite right. Perhaps a tweaked version resuiklting in German Catholivcc Church in opposition to the Roman Catholic Church?

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Agreed. A Reformed Catholic Church (Which I'd imagine would be some kind of Luther-influenced Anglicanism, if that's possible) would help much in creating a religion-based Greater Germany.

Theodoric said:

Agreed. A Reformed Catholic Church (Which I'd imagine would be some kind of Luther-influenced Anglicanism, if that's possible) would help much in creating a religion-based Greater Germany.

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I should clarify, Germania isn't created base on religion, it just happens that the original pretext for the War of German Unification happens to be for lack of a better term, a Protestant-Catholic Religious war.

Felipe II converting to Lutheranism...

All right, I didn't have a stroke after all...moving on

Anyhow, what could possibly make the Habsburgs embrace the reformation instead of being fanatically catholic as IOTL?

Actually, given that there's a more centralized Habsburg government, I'd say the reformation should be less successful and not more...

I remember someone saying that the reformation was most successful when Carlos I/Charles V was not around to handle affairs...

If Greater Germany is as powerful as it sounds, it would be easy for it to export their breed of Catholicism to Northern Italy and Poland. After France falls apart, Germany could then export it again to northern, central and eastern France, whilst Roman Catholicism remains in western and southern France, with Spain as its protector.

For the Byzantine idea of yours you could achieve that by somehow killing off the Ottoman dynasty, leading to the dramatic collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of your Neo-Byzantine state. To add some extra tension to the area, have the Neo-Byzantine Empire fail to control most of Anatolia, leading to the creation of a Karamanid Empire to replace the Ottomans. Although they would be displaced from Europe, they would compensate for that by expanding into North Africa and Persia.

For a new name for the America's, how about having the two continents originally being believed to be seperate, leading to two different names. Butterflies could lead Colombus further north than OTL, cementing a belief that this is the sole continent and being farther away from Central America. Perhaps it could be called Occasus (West) or Maximilia (if you are feeling patriotic enough). Then, before the centre is discovered, Italian or Iberian merchants discover South America, naming it after something else. Thus you have two names.

I have two questions for you. Firstly, when you say 'Kingdom of Burgundy' do you mean a kingdom stretching from Belgium to Switzerland or the Low Counties?

Secondly, with your Greater Germany following Bourbon France quite closely, would that mean you have a German analouge of the French Revolution lined up? Possibly even the eventual downfall of the Hapsburg monarchy to be replaced with a new dynasty?

maverick said:

Felipe II converting to Lutheranism...

All right, I didn't have a stroke after all...moving on

Anyhow, what could possibly make the Habsburgs embrace the reformation instead of being fanatically catholic as IOTL?

Actually, given that there's a more centralized Habsburg government, I'd say the reformation should be less successful and not more...

I remember someone saying that the reformation was most successful when Carlos I/Charles V was not around to handle affairs...

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Philip I as in Philip the Handsome, Husband of Joan the Mad, who survives to become HRE.

ImperialVienna said:

Philip I as in Philip the Handsome, Husband of Joan the Mad, who survives to become HRE.

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Why, that does make more sense, thanks for clearing that up...

Although I still don't see why a more powerful Habsburg family decides to change their religion out of conveniency...you'd think that they'd do the opposite!

So if Columbus set sail from roughly the Netherlands, as opposed to Spain, would he have "discovered" the Northern portions of North America as opposed to the Carribean? So what parts of the New World would have been conquered/colonized first? Would South America been colonized at all by the Germans?

So what happens to the Native empires in Mexico and Peru? Are they conqured at all? If they have no contact with Europeans, do they not suffer the death rates brought on by the European diseases?

Your POD has butterflies of massive proportions. Should be interesting.

Rekjavik said:

If Greater Germany is as powerful as it sounds, it would be easy for it to export their breed of Catholicism to Northern Italy and Poland. After France falls apart, Germany could then export it again to northern, central and eastern France, whilst Roman Catholicism remains in western and southern France, with Spain as its protector.

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In interesting proposal, I'll likely follow it.

For the Byzantine idea of yours you could achieve that by somehow killing off the Ottoman dynasty, leading to the dramatic collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of your Neo-Byzantine state. To add some extra tension to the area, have the Neo-Byzantine Empire fail to control most of Anatolia, leading to the creation of a Karamanid Empire to replace the Ottomans. Although they would be displaced from Europe, they would compensate for that by expanding into North Africa and Persia.

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Also Noted.

For a new name for the America's, how about having the two continents originally being believed to be seperate, leading to two different names. Butterflies could lead Colombus further north than OTL, cementing a belief that this is the sole continent and being farther away from Central America. Perhaps it could be called Occasus (West) or Maximilia (if you are feeling patriotic enough). Then, before the centre is discovered, Italian or Iberian merchants discover South America, naming it after something else. Thus you have two names.

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Hmm I like that idea... *waddles off to pick names*

I have two questions for you. Firstly, when you say 'Kingdom of Burgundy' do you mean a kingdom stretching from Belgium to Switzerland or the Low Counties?

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Likely a combination of the two. Assume that the Habsburgs are able to retake/retain the Duchy of Burgundy and eventually connect it with the Low Countries.

Secondly, with your Greater Germany following Bourbon France quite closely, would that mean you have a German analouge of the French Revolution lined up? Possibly even the eventual downfall of the Hapsburg monarchy to be replaced with a new dynasty?

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Honestly I'm not sure I intend for the timeline to go past Balthazar I's death and I don't really mean for Germania to follow the path of Bourbon France. Likely if it would continue past Balthazar's death, there wouldn't be a revolution like the French one, but more that his descendants begin to embrace "Enlightened Despotism"(likely called something else) and then eventually the Monarchy as a whole slowly loses power to the legislature, through a series of weak rulers and regencies. I can also promise that there will be no ousting of the Habsburgs entirely in Germania though, just because I don't think I could bring myself to write it

maverick said:

Why, that does make more sense, thanks for clearing that up...

Although I still don't see why a more powerful Habsburg family decides to change their religion out of conveniency...you'd think that they'd do the opposite!

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For the sake of the TL lets say that Philip I, with an already increased influence over German affairs, decides he would prefer to be Protector of the German Nation then of the Catholic Church, or in the alternative perhaps he truly believes in Luther's reforms as Friedrich the Wise did.

President Sam Houston said:

So if Columbus set sail from roughly the Netherlands, as opposed to Spain, would he have "discovered" the Northern portions of North America as opposed to the Carribean? So what parts of the New World would have been conquered/colonized first? Would South America been colonized at all by the Germans?

So what happens to the Native empires in Mexico and Peru? Are they conqured at all? If they have no contact with Europeans, do they not suffer the death rates brought on by the European diseases?

Your POD has butterflies of massive proportions. Should be interesting.

Click to expand...

The Inca and Aztec will likely have European contact, and will likely still be conquered and wiped out by disease, it's just a matter of when and by whom.

Alright feel free to hammer me for this.

For a Continent name how about Tarsonis? I just really like that name and it would be interesting to hear what the term for someone from there would be.

But seriously, none of that North/South *****.

Herr Frage said:

Alright feel free to hammer me for this.

For a Continent name how about Tarsonis? I just really like that name and it would be interesting to hear what the term for someone from there would be.

But seriously, none of that North/South *****.

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Where does Tarsonis even come from?

If Columbus can make his discovery only with the money of Emperor Maximilian then I think it would be polite to come up with a name to honour this. Maximiliana or Marianna (after the Emperor's wife).

Regarding noble realms in the new world: with the old nobility in Europe creating so much problems for the kings, no monarch with a sane mind would copy this system - in OTL the reason why the Spanish Kings banned colonial attempts by the high nobilty. But duchies or counties could be used as administration units.

If you create a pope who thinks he can command the Emperor and overestimates himself so much that he alienates the Emperor completely it would be easier to separate the German church from Rome.

A couple of thoughts

-1- France - its going to be doing something. To 'Balkanise' it you can have Brittany break off again (if you look at the nomenclature of the daughters and the need to remarry back into their own line, the Valois were keeping it an attached realm for a while rather than integrating it). Also, you've got Navarre in the South. But to further break it up, you need ... well, something. Otherwise its going to be interfering massively with everything else you've got going on. Maybe Henry VIII presses his campaign better if the Habsburgs are more distracted and less likely to be a deciding factor from outside

-2- There were other Reformist strands and some I think were based on a more collegiate approach, less centralised power in Rome.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Sapiento said:

If Columbus can make his discovery only with the money of Emperor Maximilian then I think it would be polite to come up with a name to honour this. Maximiliana or Marianna (after the Emperor's wife).

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I was thinking of naming it after Mary the Rich as you've proposed.

Regarding noble realms in the new world: with the old nobility in Europe creating so much problems for the kings, no monarch with a sane mind would copy this system - in OTL the reason why the Spanish Kings banned colonial attempts by the high nobilty. But duchies or counties could be used as administration units.

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Dually noted, I'll probably just use them as administrative units, with the Emperor holding the titles.

If you create a pope who thinks he can command the Emperor and overestimates himself so much that he alienates the Emperor completely it would be easier to separate the German church from Rome.

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An interesting idea which I will look into, perhaps he supports Francis of France?

Grey Wolf said:

A couple of thoughts

-1- France - its going to be doing something. To 'Balkanise' it you can have Brittany break off again (if you look at the nomenclature of the daughters and the need to remarry back into their own line, the Valois were keeping it an attached realm for a while rather than integrating it). Also, you've got Navarre in the South. But to further break it up, you need ... well, something. Otherwise its going to be interfering massively with everything else you've got going on. Maybe Henry VIII presses his campaign better if the Habsburgs are more distracted and less likely to be a deciding factor from outside

-2- There were other Reformist strands and some I think were based on a more collegiate approach, less centralised power in Rome.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

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On the topic of Brittany, I just found that after Mary's death Maximilian married Anne of Brittany, if I can stabilize this marriage (it'd push the PoD back a couple years, and probably cause a major war) it would begin to balkanize and undermine France. Maximilian and Anne would likely have been able to conceive so there would likely be a Habsburg on the Breton throne. Brittany could then also serve as a jump off for "German Catholicism".

I don't know how realistic this is (if anyone would like to comment), but I kind of like the idea.

Wait a second...if Columbus sails from Northern Germany, does he still get to the Caribbean and Mexico? wouldn't he get elsewhere if his uses the ports of Bremerhaven, Hamburg or whatever to set sails?

You said that Mexico and Peru would be conquered by someone else, which means that the Tawantinsuyu and Mexica empire are conquered by someone else, which means that the Holy Roman Empire is not getting shit out of the deal...all the gold and the silver are going elsewhere, probably to Portugal or France...

Let us compare Cabot and Columbus

maverick said:

Wait a second...if Columbus sails from Northern Germany, does he still get to the Caribbean and Mexico? wouldn't he get elsewhere if his uses the ports of Bremerhaven, Hamburg or whatever to set sails?

You said that Mexico and Peru would be conquered by someone else, which means that the Tawantinsuyu and Mexica empire are conquered by someone else, which means that the Holy Roman Empire is not getting shit out of the deal...all the gold and the silver are going elsewhere, probably to Portugal or France...

Let us compare Cabot and Columbus

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Indeed, I realized that, and thinking about it, likely what I'll do is have him sail for Maximilian, leaving from say Hamburg, but making a stopover in Castile or Portugal, thus enabling the gold thing. Perhaps after Columbus discovers Florida, Cabot will discover northern parts of the continent, also sailing for Maximilian. The only problem then comes we're probably back to the North South thing(or perhaps cartographers decide to suck up and name one after Maximilian and one after Maria, or one after Mary and one after Anne).

ON a somewhat related note, I'm currently drawing up a basically family tree for the House of Habsburg, very basic.

ImperialVienna said:

Where does Tarsonis even come from?

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Starcraft: Planet Tarsonis=Terrans.

Herr Frage said:

Starcraft: Planet Tarsonis=Terrans.

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Thats what I thought, but I wasn't sure if there was some other connection that I wasn't making to the name.