How does your garden grow?

OTL WW2, after the Butt Report revealled how incompetent BC navs are, Winston, Prof Fred Lindemann (Lord Cherwell), & Sir Charles Portal agreed to a policy of attack on German morale by consciously bombing civilians (euphemistcally called "dehousing" by Lindemann). No study of its effectivenes was ever done, & it resulted in fairly enormous aircrew losses (on the order of 500,000). At the same time, BC had the ability to carry out mining missions (codenamed Gardening), which suffered losses so low they were actually used for training, & which could be done much more often than city bombing, very often on days city bombing was impossible due to weather.

So suppose Winston has qualms about violating the Hague Convention. (Whether this would really be a violation is an open question, IMO, but leave that aside.) Suppose BC relies on mining (including in canals & rivers?), & bombing canals & railyards? It's been suggesting it could've had serious impact on the delivery of coal, which was main fuel for power production. Moreover, the German electrical grid did not have the flexibility to "move" power from place to place. How does that impact German weapons production? How soon do shortages of coal shut powerplants? How soon does that shut factories? How do canal bombing/mining impact delivery of supplies to factories? How dependent were, say, fighters on the arrival of props, or tanks on ball bearings? How does this kind of campaign impact delivery of weapons & supplies to the front(s)? And how does that affect the action at the front? A certain amount of "scavenging" is inevitable; the typical divsion could survive loss of about 35% of its usual supply. How soon would a campaign like this reach that level?

FYI, I'm thinking of incorporating a campaign like it in something I'm working on, so...thanx in advance, all.:D:cool:
 
Wow...thought-provoking stuff!

Not entirely sure how effective this plan would be over all or how quickly the Germans would find work-arounds, but I have to imagine it would be a better use of materials than cooking house-fraus with incendiaries.

The big questions in my mind are:

* how effective would they be in actually stopping transport? (how fast can mines be removed/detonated? How accurately can critical infrastructure be targeted?)

* how quickly can the Germans redeploy and reroute resources? (what was OTL's experience with the anti-petrol campaign? What are OTL's experiences later with "smart bombing" recovery?)

* how quickly and effectively can air defenses be repositioned to cover water and transport resources (these will be long and skinny but equally stationary - off the top of my head I'd assume it'd be easier to mass flak and interceptor squadrons near cities than to cover rail/river/canal corridors, yet hitting many of the latter will require more precision or going after big targets like marshaling yards or bridges, which means "duh, place flak there").
 
Wow...thought-provoking stuff!
Thanks. I should probably credit John Terrraine's The Right of the Line (IIRC) & Gavin Lyall's The War in the Air. I got the idea for this from one of them... And since I really can't answer these is why I'm asking.... I'm hoping somebody knows, or knows where I can find it. (OOC: what made you decide to look at this one?;))
Not entirely sure how effective this plan would be over all or how quickly the Germans would find work-arounds, but I have to imagine it would be a better use of materials than cooking house-fraus with incendiaries.
I absolutely agree. IMO, "dehousing" effectively propped up the Nazis. As J. K. Galbraith once remarked on Bill Buckley's show, "A bad government is better than a bomber overhead."...
how effective would they be in actually stopping transport? (how fast can mines be removed/detonated? How accurately can critical infrastructure be targeted?)
IIRC, the powerstations were pretty coal-critical (FWI read in the USSBS online), so even small disruptions would have big effects. IIRC, even a few days' lack of supply could shut down plants; have a glance at the OTL situation late in '44, & that's without a dedicated plan to attack river/canal transport. Also, any disruption to canal/river means more load on rwy, which is already at (nearly?) full stretch, which has serious knock-ons to weaps deliveries & troop movements, not to mention the Holocaust, & makes any attack on rwy knock-ons even bigger.

Can't speak to minesweeping. It'd have to be really good, tho. Consider: every Hampden could lay 1 mine/hop; Wimpys, 2; Lancs, 6 (IIRC). OTTOMH, that's 200K mines from Wimpys, 750K from Lancs, & 20K+ from Hampdens, not even allowing for the fact those were ops in good bombing weather. How many more in good mining weather? Add to that the "minefield effect": you don't know there are mines til you hit one...so just flying around near rivers/canals (presuming aerial mining in 'em is possible) more/less forces sweeping, which more/less has to continue indefinitely, or til something's found. How much shipbuilding capacity does Germany have? How many sweepers can she build? How long before just the threat of mines ties up movement/supply?
how quickly can the Germans redeploy and reroute resources? (what was OTL's experience with the anti-petrol campaign? What are OTL's experiences later with "smart bombing" recovery?)
Again, can't say. Germany was pretty reliant on canals. Also, BC OR estimated one ship lost & one damaged per 26 mines laid. Again, I don't know if this is just coastal shipping. (That seems to be the implication FWI recall.) I recall rivers being mined, but not if it's WW2, & AFAIK, never Europe... No capacity? Or no vision? And, again, can you risk moving in the face of mine hazard? Or do you reach a point you have to?
how quickly and effectively can air defenses be repositioned to cover water and transport resources (these will be long and skinny but equally stationary - off the top of my head I'd assume it'd be easier to mass flak and interceptor squadrons near cities than to cover rail/river/canal corridors, yet hitting many of the latter will require more precision or going after big targets like marshaling yards or bridges, which means "duh, place flak there").
It's the dead easy aspect of defending cities that drives me crazy in all this: those factories aren't going anywhere, & both sides damn well know it, so the defenses are very likely to get stronger with time, & both sides damn well know that, too, yet BC kept going back.... Can you say Haig at Verdun? Rwy def is a tick harder: bridges & railyards are big, immobile, & obvious. For them, I'd suggest something like Mossies, & when they become threatened, something like Azon/Fritz X or GB-4, a standoff weap, maybe even an airlaunched V-1 equiv, able to hit a railyard from 20-30mi out. As for hitting a river/canal, picture flying along it & dropping.... Bridges are tough to hit & EZ defend, I agree, & I'd put them at bottom priority; again, something like Azon, GB-4, or Bat? I think GB-4's TV seeker could work in twilight (not at night, I'd guess), & Bat at night. Might try flares to make GB-4 workable at night.

Canal/river defense IMO is no go. There's too much mileage at hazard to cover it all, & damage could be done with handfuls of bombers. Can you picture 100 3-plane raids over Europe at once? Add to that they'd mostly be going in around treetop height, so they'd be damn hard to detect on W rzburg... (Even CHL had trouble with intruders, & the Brits were better at it.) Can you picture the AD headaches? (Suicides?:D) They could mostly be decoys, even--& assuming aerial mining, the Germans'd never know, til they hit something...so decoys could work just as well as live ones. How much fighter production can you tie up this way? (How much have you got?:D)

Just OTTOMH, I imagine chaos in a matter of weeks, but I don't know. How big do the effects get, & how fast? Were their river-capable mines? Could standard Brit air-laid mines be adapted for rivers? OTOH, assuming some production is still possible in between, this probably means more heavy AT in Russia.

And there's a political aspect: it may be impossible to butterfly away all city-burning, after the Germans have done it, with the "give it 'em back" sentiment. It was learned in China, to sustain morale there was a need to try & defend & hit back. How much "hitting back" is in question. There's also the "Second Front" demands; may be able to balance those against inhibiting weapon/supply deliveries. I take the pos this is for Winston to defend: to the public, say, we're giving the Germans back, but for security reasons we can't say how hard; to the Russians, the same, & look at the drop in German supply & fewer air attacks. He could also say BC's trying to avoid unnecessary crew slaughter against German defenses; he'd not need to specify Verdun, his audience would get it. (Fear of another WW1-style slaughter in France informed British reluctance to return to the Continent, FWI read.) IMO, there's also a moral issue, per Haig; preserving friendly aircrews should trump demands of an ally they be expended just to keep up appearances. Of course, that may be a) a very postwar attitude & b) a very North American attitude, where taking losses is less acceptable; period Brits seem to me to've been more willing to take losses (until '44, anyhow, by which time a kind of "exhaustion" seems to be setting in).
 
It would probably still be worthwhile for BC to stage some city raids (although not nearly as many as in OTL), to force the Germans to waste resources defending them all.
But with lower overall losses, these would be big raids, where the percentage losses are lower.

Also, rail bridges and viaducts can be taken out very nicely by tallboys, at night. Granted loss percentage would be higher, but you dont have to go back and keep rebombing.
 
I'm liking this scenario. You should TL it.
I'm planning on using it, one reason I asked.:D I'm hoping to do a fairly detailed wartime scenario where it's the strategic option, but I don't know nearly enough about the effects of it...:mad: Also, I'd need a credible POD, which I'm not sure I've got: namely, lack of heavies like Lancs able to reach Berlin with big loads, but Hampdens or Mossies that can cover lots of Europe with 1-2 mines...
 
Also, rail bridges and viaducts can be taken out very nicely by tallboys, at night. Granted loss percentage would be higher, but you dont have to go back and keep rebombing.

Precision bombing at night.....during WW2. Before dedicated pathfinders they had a hard enough time finding the correct cities.

IIRC it only really started during the 70's and 80's.

Now the RAF did some bridge busting with Tallboys and Grandslam at the end of the war but in daylight with air supremacy. A whole different kettle of fish.
 
Precision bombing at night.....during WW2. Before dedicated pathfinders they had a hard enough time finding the correct cities.

IIRC it only really started during the 70's and 80's.

Now the RAF did some bridge busting with Tallboys and Grandslam at the end of the war but in daylight with air supremacy. A whole different kettle of fish.
Not a major emphasis at first. And the tech to do it could have been developed, with demand for it. GB-4 didn't get high priority, AFAIK, but could EZ have been higher...
 
Not a major emphasis at first. And the tech to do it could have been developed, with demand for it. GB-4 didn't get high priority, AFAIK, but could EZ have been higher...

Agreed. The tech if pushed hard would be available for daylight strikes.

With a heavy escort it would be possible, for a bit. With it being radio controlled the Germans would be looking for ECM to screw it up, the allies ECCM to keep it working ect. ect.

The problem I see would be the night part of it. True, active infared was starting to come out at that time, by the US and Germans. Now the range and intensity of the light source would be a great limitation and would be extremely weather dependent. Along with the narrow field of view of the guidance, ECM, an alert defence and all the other factors involved... not really a good chance.

Image intensification was in it's infancy along with it's problems and limitations and thermal but a dream.

By the time all bugs were worked out in the daytime, it would probably be a better and more successful system than trying to get it to work at night.
 
Agreed. The tech if pushed hard would be available for daylight strikes.

With a heavy escort it would be possible, for a bit. With it being radio controlled the Germans would be looking for ECM to screw it up, the allies ECCM to keep it working ect. ect.

The problem I see would be the night part of it. True, active infared was starting to come out at that time, by the US and Germans. Now the range and intensity of the light source would be a great limitation and would be extremely weather dependent. Along with the narrow field of view of the guidance, ECM, an alert defence and all the other factors involved... not really a good chance.

Image intensification was in it's infancy along with it's problems and limitations and thermal but a dream.

By the time all bugs were worked out in the daytime, it would probably be a better and more successful system than trying to get it to work at night.
OK, use Felix, instead, & eliminate the problem of ECM, too. And bottom line, attacking bridges is not, repeat not, top priority. It's gravy. Bombing railyards is third on the list. #1, always, is mining, of rivers, canals, & coastal waters. Bombing canals is #2. Between them, cutting movement of spares, equipment, parts, completed weapons, & coal, or even inhibiting any of them, has enomous knock-on effects. So, again, how soon do they get felt at the front? Or, how soon does lack of coal at a powerplant around Essen shut production of screws, which shuts production of tank hatches, which shuts production of PzVs, which don't get to Russia? (And how many completed ones are backed up in factories because minesweeping can't keep up with the {very often phantom:eek:} mines...?)
 
OTL WW2, after the Butt Report revealled how incompetent BC navs are, Winston, Prof Fred Lindemann (Lord Cherwell), & Sir Charles Portal agreed to a policy of attack on German morale by consciously bombing civilians (euphemistcally called "dehousing" by Lindemann). No study of its effectivenes was ever done, & it resulted in fairly enormous aircrew losses (on the order of 500,000). At the same time, BC had the ability to carry out mining missions (codenamed Gardening), which suffered losses so low they were actually used for training, & which could be done much more often than city bombing, very often on days city bombing was impossible due to weather.

So suppose Winston has qualms about violating the Hague Convention. (Whether this would really be a violation is an open question, IMO, but leave that aside.) Suppose BC relies on mining (including in canals & rivers?), & bombing canals & railyards? It's been suggesting it could've had serious impact on the delivery of coal, which was main fuel for power production. Moreover, the German electrical grid did not have the flexibility to "move" power from place to place. How does that impact German weapons production? How soon do shortages of coal shut powerplants? How soon does that shut factories? How do canal bombing/mining impact delivery of supplies to factories? How dependent were, say, fighters on the arrival of props, or tanks on ball bearings? How does this kind of campaign impact delivery of weapons & supplies to the front(s)? And how does that affect the action at the front? A certain amount of "scavenging" is inevitable; the typical divsion could survive loss of about 35% of its usual supply. How soon would a campaign like this reach that level?

FYI, I'm thinking of incorporating a campaign like it in something I'm working on, so...thanx in advance, all.:D:cool:

I think there are several issues you are overlooking here that may effect your timeline. Firstly , there is the assumption that mining the canals is possible , something id question highly. Unlike dropping a conventional bomb on a rail line (difficult enougth at the best of time , in this instance near impossible) , dropping a sea-type mine in the canals woulld prove almost impossible. The aircraft would have to be flying suicidally low and slow just to make sure they got it in the canal. Sea mines were dropped from less than 200 feet I believe , and thats over open water. In this instance , barrage ballons and small arms would be deadly and easily deployed to protect infrastructure

Secondly , there is the interservice rival between Harris and the Coastal Command , whose normal responsability it would be to mine germanies coastline. Right up until his death , Harris blamed CC for taking away lancasters and Halifaxes from his combined bomber offensive , and he would insist later in his autobiography that had he had these resources , he could have forced Germany to surrender from the Air. No , whislt we know this is hubris , it goes to show the deep rivalry between the two , and why the close co-operation neccesary to make this work would simply have evapourated

Lastly , I feel the German war machine had better scrounging abilities than you give them credit for. Even after the ball bearing factory at shweinfurt was finnaly destroyed in '44 , German production continued much as before due to intensive re-cycling and stockpiling. Id love to see your sources on this.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Actually, scattering mines in the general vicinity of the canals could be useful. Some will still land in the canals, and the ones that don't could presumably be set up to be a nightmare to clear from the land. And if you're sending an entire bomber flight with the intent of just a handful of mines getting into the canals, you'll get enough in to force the Germans to rerout barge traffic while they sweep for mines.

Interservice rivalry would be tricky, but there has to be some way with a prewar POD to rearrange things such that either Harris can deal with this change in goals or that Harris is not in charge of the RAF Bomber Command.

German ability to scrounge, while impressive, won't work as well when a) it's harder to move materials around and b) there's only intermittent power due to the lack of coal at the power plants.

And how much work would it have taken Britain to have some form of usable air-to-ground rocket (guided or otherwise) within the first one or two years of the war, assuming different R&D priorities in the pre-war period?
 
Surely a mine designed for the canal system could be a lot smaller than a sea mine. Canal barges werent THAT big..allowing a larger number of them to be scattered, so even if a lot miss you still get a lot in the water. Plus a lot of aggravation for the German bomb-disposal people.
 
Firstly , there is the assumption that mining the canals is possible , something id question highly.
Here, I'll acknowledge, I'm in doubt. My presumption has been a minelayer flying along a river or canal (& I'm not limiting to canals, since IMO bombing can damage them well enough alone, as it did in the handful of cases I've heard of). If you can put the aircraft roughly in the middle of a river over a stretch of 100m or so, a successful drop should be possible, IMO.
barrage ballons and small arms would be deadly and easily deployed to protect infrastructure
Given only canals are targetted, I'd still say it's possible to attack successfully. There's quite a lot of canal in Europe. Presuming rivers are mineable, no way. It's simply impossible to defend every mile of river & canal in Germany, let alone all Occupied Europe.
Secondly , there is the interservice rival between Harris and the Coastal Command , whose normal responsability it would be to mine germanies coastline.
Not as I understood it. (Admittedly, I may have got it wrong.) Terraine's Right of the Line (unless it's Lyall; The War in the Air?) suggests it was BC a/c.
Lastly , I feel the German war machine had better scrounging abilities than you give them credit for.
Perhaps I underestimate it. I have no real idea of how soon the impacts would be felt, which is one reason I'm raising it. USSBS (which I found online somewhere, but haven't been able to trace since, after a hard drive crash...:mad:) suggested coal deliveries would have been a critical weakness, & any impact on them at all would have immediate knock-ons. That being true, I presume a domino effect, not unlike in a strike at an auto parts supplier today. How, & how soon, it's felt is my question.
Actually, scattering mines in the general vicinity of the canals could be useful.
Maybe not, actually. It was "scattering", & the resultant capture of an intact example, that allowed Britain to develop CM to German magnetic mines. As noted, I think the difficulty in laying is overstated.
you'll ... force the Germans to rerout barge traffic while they sweep for mines.
That may not always be possible (on some routes, & for some cargoes, impractical or impossible), & switching to an already over-stretched rail system may not be, either.
And how much work would it have taken Britain to have some form of usable air-to-ground rocket (guided or otherwise) within the first one or two years of the war, assuming different R&D priorities in the pre-war period?
I think this is the easiest, actually. Britain had radar receivers able to fit in the nose of a Beaufort in '40, & as I understand it, they had to be pretty sensitive to be useful. For something like Bat, with (very crude) semi-active homing, sensitivity wouldn't have to be so good. Or, as suggested, use IR (per Felix), which was actually studied more prewar than radar, IIRC. (A Canadian, whose name I can no longer recall,:(:eek: was a pioneer in IR research in the period, & could very well head TTL's "Tabby" PGM program...)
Interservice rivalry would be tricky, but there has to be some way with a prewar POD to rearrange things such that either Harris can deal with this change in goals or that Harris is not in charge of the RAF Bomber Command.
Harris would be the big problem. If it's done before Harris is appointed, say when Peirse is still AoCinC, it might meet less resistance; if done before so much has been invested in city bombing...
 
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On the effectiveness of mining...

Operation Gardening (against the Rumanian oil transported down the Danube) had 18 missions over 6 months. Losses were very low (by BC standards)

These missions required the Germans to invest in a huge anti-mine effort, and still cut the oil traffic to about 1/3 of its previous level.

Now granted, AA over Rumania probably wasnt up to thet over Germany, but even so, it looks like a very viable strategy.

personally, I'd suggest 3 tipes of attacks
(1) Wholesale mining (especially in weather not suitable for other forms of attack)
(2) Precision attacks, with fighter escort, using heavy bombs (or for many targets, a mix of bomb and incendiary loads), accepting higher losses for the result of smashing a highly valuable target. This wouldnt need the size og heavy bomber force in OTL, but would require better trained crews, possible better aircraft (but if we dont have to keep rebuilding BC every 6 months, this seems quite doable)
(3) To keep the german AA defences busy, occasional BIG raids on industrial cities, aimed at destoying a major part of the city complex. Losses would be similar to OTL for these. The best crews are the pathfinders/first in, the less well trained crews are the mass bombloads onto a burning target.

This mix would seem to get a much better effect on German production for no more effort - in fact, it could well cut the resources needed by BC noticeably.
Of course, you'd have to shoot Harris and Cherwell first, not a bad idea.....:p
 
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On the effectiveness of mining...

Operation Gardening (against the Rumanian oil transported down the Danube) had 18 missions over 6 months. Losses were very low (by BC standards)

These missions required the Germans to invest in a huge anti-mine effort, and still cut the oil traffic to about 1/3 of its previous level.
Was it that effective?:eek::cool:
personally, I'd suggest 3 tipes of attacks
(1) Wholesale mining (especially in weather not suitable for other forms of attack)
(2) Precision attacks, with fighter escort, using heavy bombs (or for many targets, a mix of bomb and incendiary loads), accepting higher losses for the result of smashing a highly valuable target. This wouldnt need the size og heavy bomber force in OTL, but would require better trained crews, possible better aircraft (but if we dont have to keep rebuilding BC every 6 months, this seems quite doable)
(3) To keep the german AA defences busy, occasional BIG raids on industrial cities, aimed at destoying a major part of the city complex. Losses would be similar to OTL for these. The best crews are the pathfinders/first in, the less well trained crews are the mass bombloads onto a burning target.
That sounds very much like what I had in mind. You'd have to carry out some city raids for reasons of British morale & HMG's political survival, too: the need to demonstrate HMG/BC is actually doing something.
This mix would seem to get a much better effect on German production for no more effort - in fact, it could well cut the resources needed by BC noticeably.
Not could, would. For instance, one Lanc could carry six mines, & a Stirling at least 2 (4?), even a Hampden 2. All could have done mining missions, or attacks on canals, IMO. How many sorties did they make, combined? And those were only on the "good bombing days"...
Of course, you'd have to shoot Harris and Cherwell first, not a bad idea.....:p
I wouldn't disapprove.:D I don't think it's needed, tho, if the POD is early enough: after the Butt Report, but before the "dehousing" memo, & before Harris becomes CinC. (Am I cutting it too fine? Or did the "dehousing" memo predate Butt? IIRC, it followed.) Or, better still, move up the Butt report a couple of months, even.
 
I dont know what they dropped in Rumania, I think they were targetting small ships rather than barges, so presumably normal sea mines. These are about a ton.
But to interdict barge traffic, you dont need a one ton mine. Probably something on the order of 250kg would do nicely. So you can probably multiply the number of mines by 3-4. You'd still need to be dropping some of the big mines on certain rivers ane the coast, but the inland waterways can be saturated by smaller ones.
 
I'm trying to minimize development of all-new systems unless absolutely necessary. If you'll accept a variation on an existing 250pd or 500pd bomb, the weap load a Lanc could be a great deal higher. That, however, will reduce the laying accuracy, unless we limit them to 6-8/mission. Or, it might be possible to adapt a 600pd depth charge to air-drop & contact or pressure firing; IIRC, the typical DC loadout was 6 & straddles of a U-boat (beam around 20') were common from around 300' (maybe higher). Since most rivers/canals will be at least 20' wide... Doesn't the existing hydrostatic pistol measure a pressure delta? Or can I just handwave it in?:p
 
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