Education Stops Fall of Rome

POD is 121 AD. A fountain is under construction in Rome. A stone carver is doing a plaque. A plumber accidentally spills molten lead on to the carved stone. They lift the hardened lead off the stone and, because it is still hot, drop it face down on to a bed of damp sand.

They lift the lead off the sand and see the legible inscription left by the lead. The carver feels a Gutenberg-like flash of insight and cuts the lead into words and prints images in to the sand. Three senators walk by and see the accidental demonstration and recognize the technique can be used as a tool for communication. They take the pieces of lead to Caesar Hadrian.

Hadrian commissions jewelers to carve letters and words that can be pressed into the wax tablets in use at the time (no paper back then). Texts and messages could be quickly spread without the labor of manual copy. Early day kiosks spread news. School lessons are handed out faster. Libraries spring up.

It would be decades before Rome would feel the instability that followed the death of Marcus Aurelius. In the meantime, literacy could spread. Roman Latin becomes even more widespread and standardized. More literacy means more people available for invention.

I am no expert at Roman history. The challenge is to continue this scenario so Rome becomes too strong to fall, perhaps aided by a cultural/technological exchange with China in a future century. Effectively, China plus Rome equals Renaissance.

I was going to have my high school librarian, 'General' Keller, go back in time. There isn't a barbarian horde in history which would dare tangle with her!

there is no such thing as too strong to fall, all civilisations fall eventually. It's actually as a result of increasing complexity, in essence each time a civilisation solves a problem, it uses a certain amount of resources available to it. This leaves less resources. Another problem will come along and again it will be solved by using some of the remaining resources. this loop will keep recurring until such time that there are no available resources left to solve a problem, at this point the inevitable decline will begin. it might take a while but it will happen

http://www.newscientist.com/channel...demise-of-civilisation-may-be-inevitable.html

(unfortunately you have to be a subscriber to read the entire article, shame, it was good)

I started thread with a POD that frees up more resources than it consumes; namely, the time to transcribe writing. I am trying to create a learning scenario in ancient Rome that parallels the impact of the steam engine in the 19th century: it allows a given labor pool to produce much more.

My point is to move Rome into an early-day Renaissance in lieu of the OTL collapse.

This is a very interesting concept. One that I very much like.

I must say that the fact you made it Emperor Hadrian is a good thing. Considering that the Empire was still strong during his time it provides for a nice basis for the continued development of strength.

Another major facet of this is that it becomes slightly easier to standardize training for various facets. Such as the military - you give every squadron a Book of Rules or whatever which can help to make them better trained.

Another facet is that now laws can be published and handed out to everybody in a way that makes it so that everybody knows what is and what is not possible.

Of course, there is the spreading of news and information. And that always helps.

The spreading of information would allow for the existence of magazines about various topics. Think about it, a magazine related to mining, or agriculture. And if a dozen rich and powerful mining experts are a part of the mining magazine then they can exchange ideas in print. Providing for an increased in development.

And, as you mentioned, the ease of spreading books would allow for libraries. And the existence of libraries would allow towns and communities to not really be disconnected from the greater society - knowledge about lands beyond the town border can be easily spread. Providing for greater interest in traveling to far off but within nation borders.

Anyway, I like the idea for this timeline and hope that others present their ideas, and that you (as the author) add more to it.

kellineil said:

there is no such thing as too strong to fall, all civilisations fall eventually. It's actually as a result of increasing complexity, in essence each time a civilisation solves a problem, it uses a certain amount of resources available to it. This leaves less resources. Another problem will come along and again it will be solved by using some of the remaining resources. this loop will keep recurring until such time that there are no available resources left to solve a problem, at this point the inevitable decline will begin. it might take a while but it will happen

http://www.newscientist.com/channel...demise-of-civilisation-may-be-inevitable.html

(unfortunately you have to be a subscriber to read the entire article, shame, it was good)

Click to expand...

This doesn't make sense to me. Many times, when a civilisation solves a problem, it increases the amount of resources available to it.

Books and magazines would convey knowledge, but only with the help of papyrus (from the Nile) or paper (just invented in China and not yet in Rome). After some decades, we can assume books and literature would be spread in Latin and Greek. Wax tablets would have to suffice for news bulletins, since the supply of papyrus would be limited.

In 125 AD OTL, the Pantheon was built of concrete construction. The fired ingredients came from volcanic sources. Unfortunately, in OTL, the technology was not properly recorded and was eventually lost. With education and literature, the technology would be recorded.

I chose the POD point to assure that Marcus Aurelius would be born exactly as in OTL, so Rome would remain stable through 180 AD.

Statistics say that Rome was, at best 30% literate at its height. I want to spread education to double that number by the end of the second century, so essentially twice as many people would be able to innovate and contribute. Hopefully, the instability that followed the death of Marcus Aurelius could be reduced.

Ultimately, I would like to see an expedition from Rome to China in the third century. I would suggest a sea route, around India and southeast Asia. This means a stable Roman base in the Suez or Persian Gulf.

A technological exchange between China and Rome would change the world. The empires would be too far apart to fight. Imagine: Roman printing and concrete for Chinese paper and iron technology. We can not neglect the impact of an exchange of medical and martial art techniques.

I will stop for now and see if anyone else has some suggestions.

Mark E. said:

martial art techniques.

Click to expand...

Anybody else got the vision of ninja esqu pretorian guard

Mark E. said:

With education and literature, the technology would be recorded.

Click to expand...

one supposes that "Greek Fire" was recorded in OTL...yet nobody can make it.

but your point still stands.

Statistics say that Rome was, at best 30% literate at its height. I want to spread education to double that number by the end of the second century, so essentially twice as many people would be able to innovate and contribute.

Ultimately, I would like to see an expedition from Rome to China in the third century. I would suggest a sea route, around India and southeast A

I will stop for now and see if anyone else has some suggestions.

Click to expand...

I rather like the idea...though remember that the Romans didn't have public schools like we do -- they had private tutors...and if you couldn't afford tutors, you took your kids to work with you. (as in, work alongside you)

Certainly that could make a HUGE difference.

But to me the only way for the Empire to survive a lot longer is for it to become basically a EU in the ancient times. Either bring in Gaul and elsewhere and allow them representation in the Senate; or give each province semi autonomy. Either will be factors that reduce local tension and agitation for independence and revolt. Then when the critical times come when the Huns and company start to show up the Empire is not overextended.

I agree that there would need to be some more power in local government to provide stability, but I don't think that is necessary at the expense of the national Imperial government of Rome.

One of the interesting things that can be spread through this new medium is new popularist ideas and whatnot.

In addition, information on new areas for colonies and other such opportunities for extra comfortable places and businesses can be easier to access.

I must say that I very much thing the idea of Praetorian monks. That is a pretty cool image.

burmafrd said:

Certainly that could make a HUGE difference.

But to me the only way for the Empire to survive a lot longer is for it to become basically a EU in the ancient times. Either bring in Gaul and elsewhere and allow them representation in the Senate; or give each province semi autonomy. Either will be factors that reduce local tension and agitation for independence and revolt. Then when the critical times come when the Huns and company start to show up the Empire is not overextended.

Click to expand...

By the late empire, Gaul was fully part of the Empire, with an Imperial Capital in the Rhineland at Triers.

'Tis she alone who has received the conquered into her bosom and like a mother, not an empress, protected the human race with a common name, summoning those whom she has defeated to share her citizenship and drawing together distant races with bonds of affection. To her rule of peace we owe it that the world is our home, that we can live where we please, and that to visit Thule and explore its once dread wilds is but a sport; thanks to her all and sundry may drink the waters of the Rhone and quaff Orontes' stream, thanks to her we are all one people.

Yes by late empire when it really no longer mattered. And even then its still not the same. The only way for a something that large to stay together is to make most of its inhabitants WANT to stay together.

Tom Veil said:

This doesn't make sense to me. Many times, when a civilisation solves a problem, it increases the amount of resources available to it.

Click to expand...

the total resources (this includes raw materials, human resources, land, water, food, even knowledge etc) available are finite. whilst it is possible to discover how to use a previously unused resource and hence temporarily extend the life of a civilisation, eventually available resources will be used. If you can get hold of a copy of the article i posted a link to read it, it explains it <em>far</em> better than I ever could

Keenir said:

I rather like the idea...though remember that the Romans didn't have public schools like we do -- they had private tutors...and if you couldn't afford tutors, you took your kids to work with you. (as in, work alongside you)

Click to expand...

More copies of lessons means each tutor can handle more students and the cost per student goes down. Teenage students help teach younger ones. After 30 years, knowledge has spread significantly.

kellineil said:

the total resources (this includes raw materials, human resources, land, water, food, even knowledge etc) available are finite. whilst it is possible to discover how to use a previously unused resource and hence temporarily extend the life of a civilisation, eventually available resources will be used. If you can get hold of a copy of the article i posted a link to read it, it explains it <em>far</em> better than I ever could

Click to expand...

On an infinite time scale, I agree with the premise. But over a mere couple of thousand years, a society can thrive, especially one like Rome that starts out in a solar system where the vast majority of the resources were (and remain) untapped.

Sure, societies are resource limited. And the development of industry and high yield agriculture in the twentieth century has produced a resource base considered impossible by Malthus in the nineteenth. We can extrapolate today's world in different ways: collapse without an alternative to fossil fuels; or the optimistic science fiction future of Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek, where all of the pressing problems of today have been solved by technology.

But the purpose of this tread is not to discuss resource limitations that lie centuries, if not millennia, beyond 2008 OTL. It is my intent to discuss the factors that might allow ancient Rome to remain coherent and strong enough to reach a Renaissance in the fifth and sixth centuries, without the dark ages, starting with a revolution in education and learning in the second century, during a stable period.

Rome, in OTL, was a Mediterranean empire that lacked the critical mass needed to dominate Europe north of the Danube. I want to introduce those factors that might give it said critical mass.

The ultimate end to this thread might be a world with today's level of development and technology, circa 1100 AD. And that ATL world does not speak English, Spanish, Russian, German or French. It speaks Latin and Chinese.

true, but the western empire fell when it did because it had outstripped it's resources. better literacy wouldn't change that, in fact it could make it worse and hence speed the collapse. they'd either have needed to learn to exploit new resources, which was unlikely given the level of technology, or they would have had to reduce the inherent complexity of the system, and that would likely have led to a reduction in literacy levels. indeed this is part of the reason why the eastern empire survived for another 1000 years, the complexity overall was decreased

My POD was a technological one: a form of printing. I chose a stable period (121-180 AD) to allow education to take hold.

Look what literacy did in OTL. Puritan England stressed reading in the mid seventeenth century. By 1700 or 1710, parts of England Wales and New England could boast literacy rates of 90%, two or three times the conventional rate at the time. Fast forward ahead another century. Where did the industrial revolution take hold: England, Wales, New England. No coincidence.

Literacy and information exchange leads to invention and technology. I want to give Rome a couple of centuries to evolve the technology to find new resources, those needed to give the Empire critical mass. Minds like those of daVinci and Galileo, confined to illiteracy in OTL, would become active in ATL.

As well as giving Rome a small boost in technology, I think you would also need to create certain reforms in the government, so the Empire would be less prone to military coup d'etats, and of course, cultist infiltrations. In a more politically stable enviroment, you might buy time for your scheme to help raise the level of literacy, and fufill any other subsequent objectives.

If you do go ahead with this, what title are you going to give to your TL?