British American War in 1865?

Ok, lets just say in the diying days of the American Civil War a letter was found by a hot head colonel. This letter was from Queen Victoria and was to President of the CSA Jefferson Davis. The letter dated from 1862 states that if the CSA can win an important campaign, that the British Empire will give the CSA recognize as an indepented state. Well the CSA never won that important campaign and never got recognize by the British.

Not back in 1865, said hot head colonel gives the letter to a newspaper man who puts it in his paper, and within a week it had been in every major paper in the US.

Would this be enough of an outrage to cause the US to DOW the British? If so what would the major threaters of the war be? Would we see former CSA soldiers and junior officer be allow to join the blue in this new war?

Why a letter from Queen Victoria? She has no powers to offer such things. Now if it were from the Foreign Secretary or Prime Minister then that is a different thing though probably more of a resigning matter than anything else.

yulzari said:

Why a letter from Queen Victoria? She has no powers to offer such things. Now if it were from the Foreign Secretary or Prime Minister then that is a different thing though probably more of a resigning matter than anything else.

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Well I wasn't sure how the British system in the 1860s worked. But this isn't enough to get a war? What would be enough to get the British and America to go to war in 1865, or would this fall into ASB territory?

I think the only thing that would start a war between US and UK would be the invasion of Canada.
At this time it would be embarising for the UK government (and only if Palmeston had written the letter - and he died in October) not a cause for war.

The US is in no state to fight a war anyway. At most it would be seen as a reason for not being friends rather than becoming enemies.

America in 1865 would be deeply and totally tired of war. It's very hard to drag her into all-out war with Britain short of major British provocation, which I don't see as particularly likely.
Of course, with a POD involving consistent British support for the Confederacy, accumulating minor incidents and mutual mistrust might escalate to full war, but this is probably going to happen earlier, when the Confederacy is still sort of half-viable. And it's rather hard anyway. Going to war in this scenario could be seen by British public opinion as tantamount to going to war on behalf of slavers, which won't be popular to say the least.

Add Brazil to the mix. From 1863 until 1865 the Empire of Brazil was on the verge of a war with Great Britain.

The US was also on the verge of a war with the II French Empire and the II Mexican Empire in 1865.

It is known that Emperor Dom Pedro II was, at best, cold toward his cousin Don Maximiliano I. It is also known that Napoleon III had no love for Brazil around the same time.

Let's add even more to the mix. In 1864-65 Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay were at war with Paraguay. Chile, Peru and Bolivia were at war with Spain.

Well, Spain took part in the creation of the II Mexican Empire, along with Great Britain and France.

France was on the verge of war with Prussia. Prussia was also on the verge of war with Austria, ruled by Franz Josef II, brother of Don Maximiliano I. The latter was married to Carlota, daughter of the King of Belgium, who was very close to Queen Victoria and Great Britain.

Thus, adding all that (All of which are historical facts) you'll have all that is needed for a World War... in 1864. It's amazing that no historian has realized that so far.

In case I was not clear enough:

Alliance A: USA, Empire of Brazil, Kingdom of Prussia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Peru and perhaps Italy and China?

Alliance B: British Empire, French Empire, Confederate States of America, Austrian Empire, Belgium and Mexican Empire.

Where would be Russia and the Ottoman Empire on this game? Russia was still angry for the humilliation suffered at the hands of Britain and France at the Crimean War. In fact, Russia was still upset with Austria because ir received none of the promised aid during the Crimean War. Thus, we can add Russia to Alliance A. Turkey would go innevitably to Alliance B.

Done. You have the awesomest alternative history scenario in the past years: World War I with U.S. Civil War tactics, technology and style. Now... where are my ironclads?

I believe the Czar even went so far as to offer Lincoln the use of the Russian navy at one point during the early part of the war..during a visit of the fleet to New York City.

Lecen said:

In case I was not clear enough:

Alliance A: USA, Empire of Brazil, Kingdom of Prussia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Peru and perhaps Italy and China?

Alliance B: British Empire, French Empire, Confederate States of America, Austrian Empire, Belgium and Mexican Empire.

Where would be Russia and the Ottoman Empire on this game? Russia was still angry for the humilliation suffered at the hands of Britain and France at the Crimean War. In fact, Russia was still upset with Austria because ir received none of the promised aid during the Crimean War. Thus, we can add Russia to Alliance A. Turkey would go innevitably to Alliance B.

Done. You have the awesomest alternative history scenario in the past years: World War I with U.S. Civil War tactics, technology and style. Now... where are my ironclads?

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Shit, this could be an idea I run with. God I have to many ideas in my fucking head.

The person in the UK LEAST likely to sympsthise with the CSA's treasonous rebellion was Victoria, she was I believe against slavery and much less racist than the average Brit

Derek Jackson said:

The person in the UK LEAST likely to sympsthise with the CSA's treasonous rebellion was Victoria, she was I believe against slavery and much less racist than the average Brit

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And she had no actual power.

Lecen said:

Add Brazil to the mix. From 1863 until 1865 the Empire of Brazil was on the verge of a war with Great Britain.

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Considering that the so-called war would have been caused by one very idiotic minister who was shamed at home for his handling of the situation, war between the two is very unlikely.

Lecen said:

The US was also on the verge of a war with the II French Empire and the II Mexican Empire in 1865.

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Unlikely that they would have actually gone to war on land, the Mexicans would not have approved. If they did it would cost whatever government was in power dearly, the American people will not be over eager for any other war.

A naval confrontation is far more likely than anything else at that time.

Lecen said:

It is known that Emperor Dom Pedro II was, at best, cold toward his cousin Don Maximiliano I. It is also known that Napoleon III had no love for Brazil around the same time.

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He really didn't give two whits about his distant cousin, and if the political situation had demanded it he would have supported his Empire. Napoleon III had no great love of Brazil because they presented a block on his expansion in South America, but he really had no way of challenging that.

Lecen said:

Let's add even more to the mix. In 1864-65 Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay were at war with Paraguay. Chile, Peru and Bolivia were at war with Spain.

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Which would tie into these international events how?

Lecen said:

Well, Spain took part in the creation of the II Mexican Empire, along with Great Britain and France.

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They and GB also dropped out once Napoleons naked imperial ambitions became to painfully clear.

Lecen said:

France was on the verge of war with Prussia. Prussia was also on the verge of war with Austria, ruled by Franz Josef II, brother of Don Maximiliano I. The latter was married to Carlota, daughter of the King of Belgium, who was very close to Queen Victoria and Great Britain.

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Which, just as in our history, didn't mean a damn thing. When the two sides did go to war.

Lecen said:

Thus, adding all that (All of which are historical facts) you'll have all that is needed for a World War... in 1864. It's amazing that no historian has realized that so far.

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Frankly no, no they were not. In 1864 the US was war weary, England wanted no major wars to take place, France was engaged in Imperial adventures, and the Prussians were plotting to overthrow Austria as the dominant German power, but were not quite ready to do so.

World war in 1864 is about as likely as the South being a thriving democratic state on its own.

Lecen said:

In case I was not clear enough:

Alliance A: USA, Empire of Brazil, Kingdom of Prussia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Peru and perhaps Italy and China?

Alliance B: British Empire, French Empire, Confederate States of America, Austrian Empire, Belgium and Mexican Empire.

Where would be Russia and the Ottoman Empire on this game? Russia was still angry for the humilliation suffered at the hands of Britain and France at the Crimean War. In fact, Russia was still upset with Austria because ir received none of the promised aid during the Crimean War. Thus, we can add Russia to Alliance A. Turkey would go innevitably to Alliance B.

Done. You have the awesomest alternative history scenario in the past years: World War I with U.S. Civil War tactics, technology and style. Now... where are my ironclads?

Click to expand...

Prussia is doomed unless the north Italian states or Russia can come to their aid!

Lecen said:

In case I was not clear enough:

Alliance A: USA, Empire of Brazil, Kingdom of Prussia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Peru and perhaps Italy and China?

Alliance B: British Empire, French Empire, Confederate States of America, Austrian Empire, Belgium and Mexican Empire.

Where would be Russia and the Ottoman Empire on this game? Russia was still angry for the humilliation suffered at the hands of Britain and France at the Crimean War. In fact, Russia was still upset with Austria because ir received none of the promised aid during the Crimean War. Thus, we can add Russia to Alliance A. Turkey would go innevitably to Alliance B.

Done. You have the awesomest alternative history scenario in the past years: World War I with U.S. Civil War tactics, technology and style. Now... where are my ironclads?

Click to expand...

Some bits of a similar scenario were raised in older threads here, but IIRC, nobody suggested a South American front. If thing start going downhill in the right way, I can definitely see Denmark and possibly Sweden involved as well. Taking China into the mix might prove more difficult, but not impossible. Burma might clearly see a way to retake recent losses. Not sure about other countries, but it has the potential to turn into a very huge mess. However, I think that a POD some years before 1864-65 would be required for it to work, and the actual war might be on in 1864 already.

Lecen said:

In case I was not clear enough:

Alliance A: USA, Empire of Brazil, Kingdom of Prussia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Bolivia, Peru and perhaps Italy and China?

Alliance B: British Empire, French Empire, Confederate States of America, Austrian Empire, Belgium and Mexican Empire.

Where would be Russia and the Ottoman Empire on this game? Russia was still angry for the humilliation suffered at the hands of Britain and France at the Crimean War. In fact, Russia was still upset with Austria because ir received none of the promised aid during the Crimean War. Thus, we can add Russia to Alliance A. Turkey would go innevitably to Alliance B.

Done. You have the awesomest alternative history scenario in the past years: World War I with U.S. Civil War tactics, technology and style. Now... where are my ironclads?

Click to expand...

I don't think Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil or Chile would side with the US agianst Britain. Well, Brazil might, since it had some issues with Britain then. But, in 1865, Argentina and Uruguay were pro British, and most trade was with Britain, which makes a war unlikely. The Brazilian empire, even if it had some difficulties with Britain at that time, had also extended relations with Britain

Jim Smitty said:

Well I wasn't sure how the British system in the 1860s worked. But this isn't enough to get a war? What would be enough to get the British and America to go to war in 1865, or would this fall into ASB territory?

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There was legitimate concern from BNA about an American invasion, it was one of the reasons Canada was created.

"See, we are not British anymore."

historyfelon said:

I believe the Czar even went so far as to offer Lincoln the use of the Russian navy at one point during the early part of the war..during a visit of the fleet to New York City.

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Some Russians ships visited a few ports as part of a friendly tour. People make far too much of this. In truth, the last thing in the world Lincoln would have wanted would be to have to call in the aid of a foreign power to help put down the Confederacy. It wouldn't have happened in a million years.

The Russians sent their ships to winter in American ports so they wouldn't be trapped in the Baltic by the Royal Navy in the event of a war over Poland. They were reportedly confused when they were given warm welcomes in San Francisco and New York.

Derek Jackson said:

much less racist than the average Brit

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Of course, from what we know of the period, it seems that the average Brit was less racist than the average Yank, let alone the average Reb.

"Instead of the bright, blue sky of America, I am covered with the soft, grey fog of the Emerald Isle. I breathe, and lo! the chattel becomes a man. I gaze around in vain for one who will question my equal humanity, claim me as his slave, or offer me an insult. I employ a cab--I am seated beside white people--I reach the hotel--I enter the same door--I am shown into the same parlor--I dine at the same table--and no one is offended. No delicate nose grows deformed in my presence. I find no difficulty here in obtaining admission into any place of worship, instruction, or amusement, on equal terms with people as white as any I ever saw in the United States. I meet nothing to remind me of my complexion. I find myself regarded and treated at every turn with the kindness and deference paid to white people. When I go to church, I am met by no upturned nose and scornful lip to tell me, 'We don't allow niggers in here!'" (Frederick Douglass, My Bondage and My Freedom, 1855)

Anybody who's interested in the topic should have a look at Douglas Lorimer's Colour, Class and the Victorians, which is really interesting for British attitudes before the era of scientific racism brought in by widespread acceptance of Darwin's Origin of Species and the effects of the Jamaica rebellion.

That period or any period.
Race is the American problem.
Class is where the Brits show their ugly side.



As others have said its rather ASB that the British pm would make such an offer. If ASBs make such a war happen though then America is utterly screwed.
As I always say whenever the common Trent War topic pops up- the OTL Trent Affair almost crashed the American economy. An actual war with Britain would destroy it.