Einigkeit: The Weimar Republic

JJohnson

Banned
I've read a few pages at the beginning and end of this thread and it is an interesting idea.

How about this option:

Friedrich Ebert is followed by Wilhelm Marx as President of the Republic in the election of 1925, following Streseman's objections to Hindenburg's candidacy. Chancellor Streseman, in 1923, dealt much more firmly with the Beer Hall Putsch, and Hitler is one of the 16 who died that night; the coalition with the SPD thus did not fracture in 1923.

Marx's steady hand leads this Germany in 1926 to join the League of Nations, and due to economic ties as a result of the Dawes Plan, Germany experiences an increase in influence of American culture - films, music, radio, etc. Without much effective leadership, the NSDAP flounders and fractures in the 20s. By 1931, Germany gets the League of Nations to agree to a plebescite in Danzig, which takes place in fall, leading to Danzig to rejoin the German Reich.

In Poland, under Józef Piłsudski, outrage built on this, and Piłsudski began stirring military forces on accusations of a rigged outcome.

The Great Depression hits Germany hard, and Ebert wins again in 1932, promising reforms and capable leadership. Lettow-Vorbeck has been serving Germany, having risen to Army Chief of Staff instead of Kurt von Schleicher in the 1920s, giving capable and reasoned guidance to Ebert. Hans Luther becomes chancellor, but exits in 1934, and is replaced by Karl Lautenschlager. This chancellor reads a number of free market economic theories that ran contrary to Luther's poor attempts at reform through spending (on immitation of American policies by FDR and Hoover) and regulation. Spending in Weimar is curtailed by the government and regulations are eased, letting capital flow back into the market, starting an economic recovery. Slowly but surely, from 1935-8, Germany's economy begins recovering, partly due to military expenditure increases due to Polish agitation on the eastern borders. France begins building up as well, fearing the Germans will attack them as well.

In 1933, Dollfuss assumed dictatorial powers after questions came out about his election. He banned parties aside from the Fatherland Front, and modelled his dictatorship on that of Italy and Mussolini. Worry by the British and Germans at this, along with Czech worries amongst its own German population, lead Germany and Czechoslovakia to a defensive alliance, on agreement of Czech recognition of ethnic and linguistic rights of its German minorities, while the British back German/Czech intervention in Austria should it come to it. Germany's military buildup alarms France, but is ignored by the other Great Powers.

In 1937, Fascists in Bavaria, remnants of the NSDAP begin a putsch in Munich under direction of Dollfuss, which lets Germany and Czechoslovakia to invade Austria. Britain and France allow the intervention under the LoN banner. Lettow-Vorbeck's staff, coordinating with its Czech counterparts, makes a 4-month war with Austria, leading to the ouster of Dollfuss. With the surrender in May of 1938, elections are drawn up by July with the option for Austria to join Germany or remain independent. With the much more stable and freer Germany to the north, a majority of Austrians vote to merge with Germany.

Einstein left Austria in 1933 for the US, when Dollfuss came to power, who was openly flirting with the idea of a Piłsudski alliance, and had been spreading antisemitic propoganda. Colonel François de la Rocque's Croix-de-Feu, along with Action Française, and other French fascist groups, seeing Danzig as only the beginning, form a "united fascist front" under Leon Daudet, forcing the fall of the Third Republic on February 8, 1934. The front is antisemitic, antirepublican, and monarchist, going as the French Social Party. Daudet seeks alliance with Italy, and send aid to the fascist movement in Spain, which under Franco, succeeds in establishing his dictatorship. Daudet leads the government till 1936, when Philippe Pétain assumes leadership of the Party, blaming the weakness of the Third Republic for its fall. The republican motto is exchanged for a more fascist "Travail, famille, patrie" (Work, family, fatherland), increasing the censorship laws, and antisemitic laws. Anti-German sentiment intensifies, with the Great Depression being blamed on the Germans.


In late 1937, Poland makes its move, and attacks the German east, hoping to take Gdansk by force. Britain condemns the move, while France remains silent. L-V leads a Czech-German force in the east with surprising military force. Its army uses tanks, roughly on par with Polish-Soviet tanks, and makes good use of its Luftwaffe to conduct aerial raids of Polish cities, managing to strike nearly to Warsaw. Germany and Czechoslovakia declare war on Poland. Fascist and communist Germans in the former area of Posen and West Prussia aid the Poles, while Republican Poles aid the Germans, seeing them as the lesser of two evils. Austrian German units, along with Czech German units, join the fight. By late 1938, the German forces push the Poles back from Danzig, winning the Silesian, Posen, Pomeranian, and Lodz vovoideships, ultimately forcing the Polish to capitulate. In the Treaty of Warsaw of 1939, Germany and Poland agree to restoration of West Prussia, Posen, and the Silesian territory, full recognition of minority linguistic and ethnic rights in the territory (no Germanization), with Poland agreeing to the border change and 10 million Rentenmarks compensation for the land change, and free access to now German ports.

In 1939, Lettow-Vorbeck wins election to President, with Ebert demonstrating a peaceful transfer of power, which would become the first of many for this Germany. L-V continued the re-militarization of the Rhine, while he solidified ties to Czechoslovakia, having built respect during his time fighting against the Austro-Fascists. L-V oversees the passage of anti-fascist laws, and extends the ban on paramilitary garb and fascist symbols. The NSDAP is outlawed under this bill, as is Fatherland's Front. Poland's government falls, and is propped by the communists, aided by the Soviets, who also start agitating in Czechoslovakia, believing they should've gotten some territory from their aiding Germany, finding an ear amongst the Slovak population. Neville Chamberlain goes to Poland, securing assurances from Poland's new regime that their intentions are purely peaceful and that they have no designs on any territory they don't own, leading to the embarassing "Peace in Our Time" photo that comes back to haunt Chamberlain.

Poland falls to communism, to the delight of communists in France and in Germany, with Czechoslovakia fearing communist agitation in the Slovak region, seeking German aid, which is unfortunately slow in coming, due to being occupied with its own absorption of the Poles again in Posen. 1939-40 sees the Soviets building up the Poles, and arming Slovak Communists, through Romania. Polish communists believe in recreating the Polish nation, reaching all the way to Czechoslovakia and German Pomerania, Silesia, and Brandenburg nearly to Berlin.

France, taking the opportunity to dismantle an old foe, cooperates with Poland's government with a coordinated attack on Germany, agreeing to divide the country between them, with a rump state bordering both. France takes the chance to ally with Japan, agreeing to increased French access to Chinese markets in exchange for military cooperation between the two.

By late October 1940, they feel themselves ready to strike. Poland attacks with upgraded machinery, taking the Germans by surprise, with France rolling in through Alsace-Lorraine and Belgium. East Prussian Poles aid the capture of Königsberg, which falls on December 12, while Danzig falls December 23, and Posen Poles betray the German government, leading to its willing surrender November 10. Slovak communists, armed by Soviet machinery, plow through and capture Prague, leading the country to fall communist by November 21. The Slovak regime captures and puts the German Czech population in labor camps building weapons for the army.

The League of Nations proves pretty inept, still, and its members stay out of Germany's fight, while Britain, marginally occupied with Chamberlain's government falling, can only offer marginal assistance to L-V and his government at the moment. Churchill had warned of communism and fascism on the rise in Europe, but was only now being proven right. Britain declares war on France and signs an alliance with Germany. The US maintains neutrality, but sympathizes with Britain Germany. As an October Surprise, the war throws off FDR's reelection, leading Willkie-Taft to win the election, with communist sympathizers and New Deal extravagance being big issues. Willkie focuses on domestic issues rather than on a European War.

Britain stands alone, while the US maintains technical neutrality, starting a Lend-Lease deal, with the US gaining base-rights in the Bahamas, Bermuda, and the Virgin Islands in exchange for transferring destroyers and bombers to Britain. France begins aerial bombing of Britain, hitting the entire coastline, with heavier bombings over London. Former Austro-fascists secretly aid the French, on promise of being placed in power in what becomes occupied Baden-Württemberg, Franken, and Bayreuth, and Tirol-Vorarlberg territories by mid 1941, and in the east, communist and socialist sympathizers, Poles and Germans, became known as collaborators, with German Republican forces forming a resistance movement. The SPD becomes the party of the occupation of Pomerania, Silesia, Posen, and Prussia. Slovakian forces push north into Saxony and Prussia.

Using Helgoland as a stopping point, the British air force makes air drops and raids over to Poland, and into France as well. With the US staying ostensibly neutral, Europe looks to be falling to totalitarianism. Willkie uses his slim margins to cut out a few of New Deal programs, such as Davis-Bacon and minimum wage, and bringing in economists to help craft economic policy, such as Friedman. By 1941, his advisors begin urging more involvement in Europe, but he resists, since the US itself hasn't been attacked. This changes on December 7th at Pearl Harbor, dragging the US into the Pacific, with France, Spain, and Poland declaring war a day later, then Italy on the 10th. Willkie gives a speech before Congress on December 8th asking for a declaration of war on Japan. Doolittle's Raid comes April 18, 1942, sending the signal that the Japanese homeland is not immune from bombing.

In Europe, France uses its air force to bomb Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Karlsruhe, Dusseldorf, and Essen, softening the territory for ground troops, combined from Spain and France. France manages to overrun Baden, Württemberg, Rhineland, Saar, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, and Westphalia by 1942, while Italy takes all of Tirol, Vorarlberg, Styria, and Carinthia, striking into Baden and Württemberg with France, and Bavaria with Slovakia. Poland by 1942, manages to capture and hold East and West Prussia, Posen, Upper Silesia, and parts of Pomerania, with bombing runs on Berlin successfully forcing the German government out of the city by late 1942 when it becomes unsafe to Lübeck. By 1943, Germany loses Lower Silesia and Pomerania, holding Brandenburg, and retaking Saxony from Slovakia, boosting morale.

Bulgaria joins the Polish-French-Italian axis when France and Poland agree to give Bulgaria European Turkey and all Thrace. Romania and Hungary follow suit, for territory and seeing Polish strength under Soviet aid, and with French protection, potential for success for them. Greece joins the Allied forces, with the Royal Navy steaming to protect them.

Fermi, Szilard, and Einstein, as in OTL were already in the US and the Manhattan Project is well underway. Without FDR, the Japanese-American population were never interned, and only Japanese-Americans actually under suspicion of spying were detained or relocated, resulting in barely a few hundred arrests or detentions, a large number of which were released.

Between 1943-44, the Allies begin making headway, heading through Sicily in 1943 to Italy, which capitulated in September 1943, through Africa to take Spain by January 1944, forcing Madrid's surrender by March, France being invaded at Normandy in June, and with allies coming up from the south and north, and east, fell by January 18 1945 with a combined British, American, free Italian, and German force. In 1944, Poland made its mistake and turned to attack the Baltic states and Belarus, leading the tacit negligence of the Soviet Union to turn to aggression. The USSR began cooperating with the UK, Germany, and USA to fight against Poland, France, Spain, and the other Axis Powers.

Germany, pushing out beginning in 1942-3, using Mecklenberg, Free State of Saxony, and Brandenburg, along with allied aid from the US and UK, push east and west. Berlin is freed in 1944 on September 2nd, with the Germans, Americans, and British running to free Pomerania and Silesia in twin forks to swing around to capture Warsaw, while also trying to free Königsberg with a landing on October 3rd. The USSR sends troops south, and west, with Americans attempting to capture the same land, racing towards both Warsaw and Constantinople.

Greek, British, and American forces capture Thrace, then Constantinople on December 29. Polish forces engage in firefights on the retreat as the allies close in on them, strangling the communist government by 1945. Slovakian communist forces are routed into Poland, where they are captured by the Soviets, while fighting in the Balkans ties down the allies till June, when V-E Day is declared on June 28th in Warsaw, when the Polish communists surrender. Romania and Bulgaria surrendered in April and May, respectively. Japan surrenders after the US drops its atomic bombs, ending the war in Japan. The entire world celebrates, while Willkie, now in his 2nd term, meets with Churchill, Lettow-Vorbeck, and begrudgingly with Stalin to restore order and republican and democratic government in Europe at Potsdam.

In the post-war settlement, Germany managed to gain capitulation from France on Alsace-Lorraine and Belgium for Eupen-Malmedy in response to their collaboration, while Czechoslovakia lost Sudeten regions in a plebescite, to be placed under international administration for 10 years until they vote to join Czechoslovakia again, or Germany, as a result of Willkie's insistence of self-determination. Germany regains Silesia, Posen, West Prussia, and Memel, while respecting Schleswig's plebescite 20+ years prior in joining Denmark. Turkish hindrance of the Allies rubbed both Churchill and Willkie the wrong way, costing tens of thousands of lives and millions of dollars, resulting in the loss of Thrace, Constantinople, the Dardanelles, Kocaeli, Smyrna, and Cyprus for the Turks instead of their return to the Turks. Bulgaria ceded Silistra and Dobrich to Romania, and several other adjustments are made. Ethnic Polish are expelled from Posen, West Prussia, and East Prussia, while Germans are brought in from Volga and Poland. Ethnic French are expelled from Alsace-Lorraine, Nice, Savoy, and Corsica, while Tirol is annexed to Germany, along with Burgenland and portions of Styria and Carinthia from Yugoslavia. Belgium gains Nord-Pas-de-Calais, while Dunkirk and the Flemish Region are annexed to the Netherlands, on British and German insistance. The Slovenian Litteral, which contains a large ethnic Italian population, joins Italy along with Trieste. Modrus Fiume is annexed to Slovenia for a Mediterranean Port.

The Germans begin rebuilding, with Lettow-Vorbeck giving a moving speech about the German people owing the British and Americans a debt of gratitude, and pledging eternal friendship from one republic to another. Communist Parties are outlawed in addition to fascist parties, and socialist parties are discredited as collaborators in wide areas of the country. Weimar Germany signs a new constitution as of 1946, a federal republic of Germany. Rebuilding is aided by the US Marshall Plan, with the stationing of US Troops in East Prussia, Posen, and Silesia, along with West Poland as a guard against the USSR.

Germany's new constitution removes the emergency powers and suspension of civil rights, in shock over how the French, Polish and other Axis treated their minorities, and a term of 5 years for the president, and 4 years alternating for the Reichstag, with the Reichsrat still chosen by states. Currency reform in 1947, with the German Mark replacing the Rentenmark, is put in place, while Lettow-Vorbeck, exhausted from the war and the stress, declines a third term, much like Washington did in the USA. Adenauer becomes the first post-war chancellor, while L-V's farewell speech set the course for a number of German Presidents: he urged peace with all nations who sought peace with Germany, cautioned against aggression and militarism, the dangers of unchecked power and totalitarianism in an executive or legislature, and urged tolerance of all peoples, including the Polish who aided Germany during the dark hours of WW2, and the Czech soldiers who aided Germany during the 30s and in the resistance in the 40s, and urged Germans to see the British and Americans as natural descendents of the Angles and Saxons from Germany, as fellow brothers against the darkness of the iron curtain from the east.

The SPD in Germany is discredited, leading former members to the CDU, DVP, or DDP, and a number of minor parties. In 1946, Adenauer is voted in as President, while Ollenhauer becomes Chancellor, in Germany's 2nd peaceful transfer of power. Ollenhauer resigns in 1952 for health reasons, replaced by Willy Brandt, and in 1953, Brandt moved to the Presidency, with Ludwig Erhardt as Chancellor, leading to the full-speed 'German Miracle' postwar boom that lasted for nearly 20 years.

The USSR's occupation zone in Poland, based on the vovoideships of Wilno, Bialystok, Nowogrodak, Polesie, and part of Warsaw and Lublin becomes East Poland (People's Republic of Poland). The Allied occupation zones, Warsaw, Lodz, Kielce, Krakow, Lublin, Lwow, Stanislawow, Volhynian, and Tarnopol are formed into West Poland.

Taft, Churchill, and L-V discovered evidence of labor camps where Jewish, German, and other minorities were worked to death in a number of horrific ways, leading to the American, British, and German demand of a Jewish homeland to prevent this from happening again, though controversy remained over where to locate it. Stalin's Jewish Oblast was not considered a realistic place, with no historic ties to any Jewish person.

In 1948, as the allies were rebuilding, China's shaky government was facing a communist aggressor, aided by the Soviets, which Willkie condemned, ordering existing troops to the north, aiding republican Chinese forces against Mao Tse Tung. The KMT, supported by the US, UK, and Germany, fought against insurgent forces of the CPC led by Mao and backed by the USSR.

President Taft orders troops to push further, and also into Korea, leading to the Korean communist surrender in 1951, with British and German troop aid, and for the Chinese Communists holding the north, including Beijing, while the southern area held the republican forces, with a capital at Shanghai. The ceasefire leads to a north-south divide that continues to 2012. Instead of pushing for British repayment of much of the Lend-Lease program, Taft signs an agreement ceding the Virgin Islands, Bahamas, and Bermuda to the US for total forgiveness, with permanent British naval base rights and citizenship for anyone remaining after 1950 on the islands.

In Europe, Taft's biggest failure comes in letting the Warsaw Wall go up, and allowing Romania, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Greater Armenia, Georgia, and several other countries to go communist, while maintaining Greece and West Poland. In 1953, a communist revolution in Czechoslovakia takes place under Eisenhower, but is halted at the German border. Europe still divides into communist and free capitalist.

Taft uses the French occupation zones as a basis for re-establishing the 4th French Republic, with de Gaulle, a General in the Free French resistance, helping to lead the republic. The 4th republic falls in 1958 due to the same weaknesses of the third, leading De Gaulle to essentially set up the Fifth Republic, which has lasted to this day. Western Europe forms a coal and steel community in the 50s to cover energy policy and natural resources, allowing free trade on several items contained in the treaty. Germany, Denmark, Italy, Greece, Belgium, and the Netherlands join, then Portugal, Spain, and finally France in the 70s. A European Security Agency is formed in the 1950s after a Ukrainian missile scare in 1957 and Sputnik's launch in 1959.

The 60's and 70's pass for Germany relatively sedately, as memories of war fade, and Germans get used to a much freer press and free elections, with a baby boom leading to a population explosion, with people wanting to go to Silesia and Rhineland for work, and in Brandenburg also. Technology booms, along with coal mining, one of the few natural resources Germany has.

President Adenauer lasted till 1951, when Brandt took over till 1961 (Kiesinger as Chancellor), followed by Frahm, in 1966 by Helmut Schmidt, 1976 by Franz Josef Strauß (Chancellor is Karl Carstens), then Helmut Kohl in 1981. (don't really know about all these guys, just used your names).

Germany's embassy in Iran was stormed in the Iranian revolution, along with the American, and Strauß's Chancellor was defeated in a vote of no confidence in 1979, leading to Kohl's chancellorship before becoming President. Johannes Rau was Kohl's first chancellor until 1982, when he nominated Josef Ertl, who served until the end of Kohl's second term.

The current President is Katrina Merkel, the first female President of Germany, considered by many a longshot with her surprise victory being congratulated by Prime Minister Blair and President Bush in 2006. Her first Chancellor, Gerhard Schröder served until 2008, when campaign finance scandal provoked a vote of no-confidence, when Minister of Finance Eva Schavann was nominated and won the Reichstag vote, defeating Labor Minister Horst Köhler by 70 votes.

President Merkel became the first German President to visit Israel and address the Knesset in German; her visit strengthened ties to a fellow democracy, following on the heels of French President Jacques Chirac's address in French, apologizing for what the French had done in the second world war.

Germany boasts a population of 109 million people, with Silesia, Bavaria, and Rhineland its most populous states. Lübeck, Hamburg, and Bremen were joined by Berlin and Vienna as city-states over the course of the 1950s and 1960s. It enjoys vast technological advancements, including ATSC HDTV signals at 1080p/50 with 5.1 audio, the same standard used in the UK, Australia, NZ, and (at 60 fps) in the US and Canada. Germany has over 48 basic cable TV channels, 76 extended cable, including 12 sports channels and 10 news channels, and 10 foreign/dubbed movie/TV channels, and through digital cable/satellite has over 300 channels, including NatGeo, Geschichte, KSRTF (Kabel-Satelliten Reichstagfernsehen, a German C-SPAN for the Reichstag, broadcasting whenever the Parliament is in session), Sat1, RTL, Sky, Fox, BBC, Kinowelt, Klassische Kinowelt (which showed Metropolis uncut back in 2011), Eurosport, US-Sport (including NFL games, slightly more popular than OTL), and of course, Disney. HD-DVD won the HD disc format TTL, while Zune garnered a larger following, and was not discontinued.

Germany planted itself firmly in the West TTL, rather than straddling, and supported re-unification of Poland. Luxembourg and Liechtenstein have monetary union with Germany, while the rest of Europe, Germany excluded attempted to create a single currency, a euro, with Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Slovenia, Hungary, Greece, and a number of other countries joining in. Unfortunately, that currency is in the process of disintegrating due to overspending and inability for some countries to reduce debts, which would be easier with a national rather than international currency. President Merkel spoke out against the euro and German participation while she was part of the finance ministry under Oskar Lafontaine.

Germany hosted the 1936 Olympics, along with the 1972 Olympics. Sam Stoller won the 100 meter race, and Jesse Owens, a black American, won four gold medals, with a famous picture and film clip of German President Ebert embracing him, and shaking his hand vigorously, making headlines in America, which was still a segregated society at the time, especially in the Solid South. This did much to ease any lingering anti-German sentiment, and encouraged black Americans to push for desegregation sooner than OTL, achieved under Willkie, albeit slowly put into practice during the course of the war, then in China and Korea.

The Cold War lasted till the fall of the USSR in 1990, when Warsaw fell, and Poland started the process of reunification, five months after the fall of the USSR.
 

Glen

Moderator
JJohnson, I still owe you a lengthy comment period on your interesting opening premise. I think your 1920s-1940s stuff is interesting and has some real potential. The stuff after the 1940s also has some interest, but I am worried that it is too convergent on our own timeline in ways (and some of the 1940s stuff also seems to just trade nations who then do the same thing).

I will try to get you more detailed analysis for your consideration.
 

Adler

Banned
Some fast remarks:

1. The Rentenmark was soon replaced by the Reichsmark.

2. Einstein was never in Vienna. He was in Berlin. Perhaps bringing him to the USA by Uboat during the war would be an interesting scenario.

3. Ebert died in 1925.

4. Ollenhauer was a mediocore (at best) politician. Kurt Schumacher was the better one. Without the torture of the Nazis he might have lived longer.

5. Herbert Frahm was Willy Brandt. Brandt was a bit too young to become chancellor in the 1950s.

Adler
 
I've read a few pages at the beginning and end of this thread and it is an interesting idea.

How about this option:

Friedrich Ebert is followed by Wilhelm Marx as President of the Republic in the election of 1925, following Streseman's objections to Hindenburg's candidacy. Chancellor Streseman, in 1923, dealt much more firmly with the Beer Hall Putsch, and Hitler is one of the 16 who died that night; the coalition with the SPD thus did not fracture in 1923.

Marx's steady hand leads this Germany in 1926 to join the League of Nations, and due to economic ties as a result of the Dawes Plan, Germany experiences an increase in influence of American culture - films, music, radio, etc. Without much effective leadership, the NSDAP flounders and fractures in the 20s. By 1931, Germany gets the League of Nations to agree to a plebescite in Danzig, which takes place in fall, leading to Danzig to rejoin the German Reich.

In Poland, under Józef Piłsudski, outrage built on this, and Piłsudski began stirring military forces on accusations of a rigged outcome.

The Great Depression hits Germany hard, and Ebert wins again in 1932, promising reforms and capable leadership. Lettow-Vorbeck has been serving Germany, having risen to Army Chief of Staff instead of Kurt von Schleicher in the 1920s,

First off let me say, very interesting premise, but you don't need Stresseman to be more firm, there was a hail of bullets during the end of the Beer Hall Putsch, as they marched towards the Defense Ministry, having Hitler get shot would be quite easy. Thats how I had it happen anyhow..;)

Also, in regards to Von Schleicher vs Lettow-Vorbeck, how does Lettow-Vorbeck get his position? A respected war hero without a doubt, but von Schliecher is the man building the Reichswehr from a show army to real force. You would have to get rid of the Black Reichswehr and its influence to get Lettow-Vorbeck the Chief of Staff position.
 

Glen

Moderator
Some fast remarks:

And my fast replies (I am sure JJohnson can also provide some snap ones).

1. The Rentenmark was soon replaced by the Reichsmark.

IOTL - it is possible that the name and even the concept continue longer ITTL. It's interesting, but perhaps it isn't necessary.

2. Einstein was never in Vienna. He was in Berlin. Perhaps bringing him to the USA by Uboat during the war would be an interesting scenario.

Agree.

3. Ebert died in 1925.

His death was from a ruptured appendix. It can be butterflied in many ways. This was actually done in Weimar World as well. However, you are correct in as much as if it has been changed it should be acknowledged as changed for the discerning reader such as yourself.

4. Ollenhauer was a mediocore (at best) politician. Kurt Schumacher was the better one. Without the torture of the Nazis he might have lived longer.

I don't really know these two well enough to comment.

5. Herbert Frahm was Willy Brandt. Brandt was a bit too young to become chancellor in the 1950s.

Adler

Good points here, Adler!
 

Glen

Moderator
First off let me say, very interesting premise,

Agreed.

but you don't need Stresseman to be more firm, there was a hail of bullets during the end of the Beer Hall Putsch, as they marched towards the Defense Ministry, having Hitler get shot would be quite easy. Thats how I had it happen anyhow..;)

That is certainly an easy way to remove Hitler. Doesn't handle most of his future cronies however.

Also, in regards to Von Schleicher vs Lettow-Vorbeck, how does Lettow-Vorbeck get his position? A respected war hero without a doubt, but von Schliecher is the man building the Reichswehr from a show army to real force. You would have to get rid of the Black Reichswehr and its influence to get Lettow-Vorbeck the Chief of Staff position.

I don't know that that was all the doing of Von Schleicher. And remember, you've about a decade of change to play with. It could be secondary effects, or JJohnson could compose some parallel causal chains that improve LV's position while diminishing VS's. Of course, the very first thing he has to do is avoid the Kapp Puetsch (this was done as the POD for Weimar World, BTW).
 
Agreed.


That is certainly an easy way to remove Hitler. Doesn't handle most of his future cronies however.


I don't know that that was all the doing of Von Schleicher. And remember, you've about a decade of change to play with. It could be secondary effects, or JJohnson could compose some parallel causal chains that improve LV's position while diminishing VS's. Of course, the very first thing he has to do is avoid the Kapp Puetsch (this was done as the POD for Weimar World, BTW).
Actually, most of his cronies wouldn't be the biggest problem, his main cronies. In my timeline, I had Hitler dying as the main POD. Goering, who almost died in OTL anyhow, dies of his wound in Innsbruck and the Nazi's get divided between the old class and the new led by Strasser. Himmler stays with the Artamanians. So its not that hard to get rid of his cronies, getting rid of the National Socialists completely seems a little far fetched. But if you do avoid the Kapp Putsch, it can all change. Its not getting rid of the far right by any means, but it does keep the Freikorps around for a good while longer, and they can remain the main force for the far right, eventually being pushed out by the government.

As to Lettow-Vorbeck vs Von Schleicher is something I would definitely like to see explored. And i hope you put out a timeline about this. But with a POD in 1923, butterflies basically got rid of a lot of the people who would have been born. So while its possible Angela Merkel is butterfly proof, its still very unlikely.
 

JJohnson

Banned
Agreed.



That is certainly an easy way to remove Hitler. Doesn't handle most of his future cronies however.



I don't know that that was all the doing of Von Schleicher. And remember, you've about a decade of change to play with. It could be secondary effects, or JJohnson could compose some parallel causal chains that improve LV's position while diminishing VS's. Of course, the very first thing he has to do is avoid the Kapp Puetsch (this was done as the POD for Weimar World, BTW).

Definitely an easy way to remove someone from the timeline. Can you list out some of his "cronies" so we can find out some ways to deal with those people?

And if the Kapp Putsch is avoided, what effect does this have on Von Schleicher? I was reading up on Von Schleicher and the Kapp Putsch, and it appears that VS is a protege of General Hans von Seeckt, who refused to fire on the Putsch members - perhaps President Ebert gets rid of VS here instead of leaving him in due to his role in Sondergruppe R? That could also lead to an ouster of Von Schleicher, Ott, von Bock, and von Hammerstein-Equord.

If the Putsch is not avoided, perhaps the conspirators cannot find refuge in Bavaria but instead decide to go to Austria, further destabilizing it instead of Germany.
 
Just one thing, JJohnson. Get rid of your New East Prussian "Katrina Merkel" and especially stop using photos of Xenia Seeberg as her portrait.
 

Glen

Moderator
Definitely an easy way to remove someone from the timeline. Can you list out some of his "cronies" so we can find out some ways to deal with those people?

And if the Kapp Putsch is avoided, what effect does this have on Von Schleicher? I was reading up on Von Schleicher and the Kapp Putsch, and it appears that VS is a protege of General Hans von Seeckt, who refused to fire on the Putsch members - perhaps President Ebert gets rid of VS here instead of leaving him in due to his role in Sondergruppe R? That could also lead to an ouster of Von Schleicher, Ott, von Bock, and von Hammerstein-Equord.

If the Putsch is not avoided, perhaps the conspirators cannot find refuge in Bavaria but instead decide to go to Austria, further destabilizing it instead of Germany.

If the conspirators didn't destabilize Bavaria IOTL, why would they do so in Austria ITTL?

Now, then, if you want Austria destabilized, you send in Hitler!

That is what we did in Weimar World after he was outed as a Reichswehr spy in Germany. Made a very messy Austrian Civil War later on.
 
Poland falling to Communism? How? The Polish Communists were very weak and persecuted by the State. Poland attacking Germany?? ASB. Poland wouldn't attack Germany if Germany had any kind of functioning government. They were not suicidal. They knew they could only win Germany with allies, and without having the moral high ground (i.e. them being attacked) they wouldn't get any allies.
 
JJohnson, I'm afraid that what you wrote is extremely implausible.

Czechoslovakia has very little reason to sign defensive alliances with Germany, which it considered the greatest threat to its existence. Fear of Austria is not enough, since the latter is powerless to threaten Czechoslovakia.

Piłsudski would be one of the last people to try to regain Danzig in such a situation. The prospect of a war with Germany terrified him, as it would give the Soviets a perfect opportunity to invade themselves.

How did Poland's government become collectively insane enough to attack Germany?

Poles aiding Germany in such a conflict would be very, very few. IOTL war with Germany united the Poles in an unprecedented way, and I can't see why it should be different ITTL. (Unless Poland does not merely become fascist, but goes outright 1984).

It's hard to imagine any halfway sane German government wanting 1914 borders by 1914. At most the corridor (as it grants de facto economic control over Poland) and Upper Silesia (the industry), and even then it will have about a million Poles to deal with. How does the recognition of the Poles' minority rights work in practice?

And why would Germany offer any sort of compensation after such a war? Poland would only 'agree' to such losses if it were utterly defeated, and if it happens Germany does not need to compensate it.

The USSR and Czechoslovakia were relatively friendly IOTL. Why would the USSR push it into the German camp if its objective is to weaken Germany?

The alt-WWII is for the most part weirdness squared.
 
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Glen

Moderator
Poland falling to Communism? How? The Polish Communists were very weak and persecuted by the State. Poland attacking Germany?? ASB. Poland wouldn't attack Germany if Germany had any kind of functioning government. They were not suicidal. They knew they could only win Germany with allies, and without having the moral high ground (i.e. them being attacked) they wouldn't get any allies.

The point about the Communists is fair. I think there are some situations where Poland might feel compelled to strike against Germany before it grew too powerful, especially if they believed that the Soviet Union wouldn't stab them in the back in the process, but it would take some build up to get there.
 

JJohnson

Banned
Just one thing, JJohnson. Get rid of your New East Prussian "Katrina Merkel" and especially stop using photos of Xenia Seeberg as her portrait.

LOL. I was intending it to be a Merkel of a different kind to OTL as a parallelism. Where she comes from and the photo used isn't particularly relevant at this point in the time line. Why not use Xenia? Do you have a different person who would be better?
 
JJohnson, I'm afraid that what you wrote is extremely implausible.

Czechoslovakia has very little reason to sign defensive alliances with Germany, which it considered the greatest threat to its existence. Fear of Austria is not enough, since the latter is powerless to threaten Czechoslovakia.

Piłsudski would be one of the last people to try to regain Danzig in such a situation. The prospect of a war with Germany terrified him, as it would give the Soviets a perfect opportunity to invade themselves.

How did Poland's government become collectively insane enough to attack Germany?

Poles aiding Germany in such a conflict would be very, very few. IOTL war with Germany united the Poles in an unprecedented way, and I can't see why it should be different ITTL. (Unless Poland does not merely become fascist, but goes outright 1984).

It's hard to imagine any halfway sane German government wanting 1914 borders by 1914. At most the corridor (as it grants de facto economic control over Poland) and Upper Silesia (the industry), and even then it will have about a million Poles to deal with. How does the recognition of the Poles' minority rights work in practice?

And why would Germany offer any sort of compensation after such a war? Poland would only 'agree' to such losses if it were utterly defeated, and if it happens Germany does not need to compensate it.

The USSR and Czechoslovakia were relatively friendly IOTL. Why would the USSR push it into the German camp if its objective is to weaken Germany?

The alt-WWII is for the most part weirdness squared.

I've always found it disconcerting how eager some AH'ers are to paint scenarios that involve Germany making all or most of Hitler's WWII gains only without Hitler. Like as if outside the whole genocidal thing, Hitler's plans were totally awesome.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I've always found it disconcerting how eager some AH'ers are to paint scenarios that involve Germany making all or most of Hitler's WWII gains only without Hitler. Like as if outside the whole genocidal thing, Hitler's plans were totally awesome.

I have no shame supporting the return of West Prussia to the Prussian state, be it part of Germany or not.
 
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