Einigkeit: The Weimar Republic

Oh you mean after they took it in the partitions from Poland and settled it? Yeah it was definitely rightfully German. :rolleyes:

The thing is, I'm perfectly open to the idea that centuries-old claims shouldn't have that much bearing. But the reality of the situation is that Germany lost the Great War. Poland had reasonable economic and demographic claims to the region, and economically and politically it was far more important to Poland than to Germany. I fail to see what was so horribly unfair about the arrangement. Versailles had its flaws, but Germany's eastern borders were fairly reasonable.
 

Adler

Banned
Enigmajones, if you want to go back in history, I can go back much farther: Konrad von Masowien was it, who gave the territory, he didn't own btw., to the Teutonic Order. Or the Goths as their Germanic inhabitants. However, going back in times farther and farther it will become more and more inaccurate.

SlideAway, only two words: East Prussia.

Adler
 
Enigmajones, if you want to go back in history, I can go back much farther: Konrad von Masowien was it, who gave the territory, he didn't own btw., to the Teutonic Order. Or the Goths as their Germanic inhabitants. However, going back in times farther and farther it will become more and more inaccurate.

SlideAway, only two words: East Prussia.

Adler

And why is having a land connection to E. Prussia so important? Obviously it's not ideal from a German standpoint, but numerous countries have non-contiguous regions. The U.S. and Alaska, for example. Spain and Ceuta and Melilla. Or for an interwar example, Italy and various Dalmatian cities.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
And why is having a land connection to E. Prussia so important? Obviously it's not ideal from a German standpoint, but numerous countries have non-contiguous regions. The U.S. and Alaska, for example. Spain and Ceuta and Melilla. Or for an interwar example, Italy and various Dalmatian cities.

It's a matter of honour more than anything else. Logical? No. But any power who has ever had the ability to take what they feel is theirs has, and will.

Poland took West Prussia because they said "That is mine" and had the ability to enforce it.

Well, the tables have turned, and Germany is the one who's going to take what they feel is theirs. It's not that hard to see why they'd want it. All states want to be able to enforce their whims on places they have strategic interest in.

Germany, after any sort of Versailles that is like ours, is going to try and take that fucker back. Red, White, Green or goddamned Purple Germany is going to make a run for it.
 

Adler

Banned
And why is having a land connection to E. Prussia so important? Obviously it's not ideal from a German standpoint, but numerous countries have non-contiguous regions. The U.S. and Alaska, for example. Spain and Ceuta and Melilla. Or for an interwar example, Italy and various Dalmatian cities.

Yes. But the other states mostly gave these countries the right of way and did not object that a part of the other may reunite with that country. Furthermore, Ceuta and Melilla are claimed by Marocco and the Dalmatian cities were claimed by Yougoslavia as well. If you want better examples though you can take Büsingen (Germany) and Switzerland, Cabinda (Angola) and Democratic Republic of Congo.

Adler
 
Yes. But the other states mostly gave these countries the right of way and did not object that a part of the other may reunite with that country. Furthermore, Ceuta and Melilla are claimed by Marocco and the Dalmatian cities were claimed by Yougoslavia as well. If you want better examples though you can take Büsingen (Germany) and Switzerland, Cabinda (Angola) and Democratic Republic of Congo.

Adler

Look, Germany, if it remains militaristic, could take West Prussia and possibly Posen from the Polish, but I don't think much more then that. There is no way the Weimar Republic is going to be as militaristic as the Nazi's were. Germany will definitely have a large and well trained army, but it will be a lot sleeker.
 
Yes. But the other states mostly gave these countries the right of way and did not object that a part of the other may reunite with that country. Furthermore, Ceuta and Melilla are claimed by Marocco and the Dalmatian cities were claimed by Yougoslavia as well. If you want better examples though you can take Büsingen (Germany) and Switzerland, Cabinda (Angola) and Democratic Republic of Congo.

Adler

I understand why Germany would prefer to have land access. My point is how is this such a gross injustice as many AH'ers seem to make it out to be? Obviously it's not ideal from a German perspective, but it was a fairly marginal territory for Germany, low in population, economically unimportant -- why is this such a key thing? "Germany must regain the corridor, must have a land connection to E. Prussia."

Never mind that OTL, Hitler dropped the claims to Poland in 1934, encountered no major public opposition to this, and that both the Reichswehr and the German public was largely opposed or indifferent to war over it in 1939.
 
I understand why Germany would prefer to have land access. My point is how is this such a gross injustice as many AH'ers seem to make it out to be? Obviously it's not ideal from a German perspective, but it was a fairly marginal territory for Germany, low in population, economically unimportant -- why is this such a key thing? "Germany must regain the corridor, must have a land connection to E. Prussia."

Never mind that OTL, Hitler dropped the claims to Poland in 1934, encountered no major public opposition to this, and that both the Reichswehr and the German public was largely opposed or indifferent to war over it in 1939.

Hitler led a police state, and I don't think anyone took it seriously. The Poles certainly didn't. But I agree Germany didn't have a right to it; Danzig, yes.

As to why Germans obsessed over it... it's nationalism.
 
Hitler led a police state, and I don't think anyone took it seriously. The Poles certainly didn't. But I agree Germany didn't have a right to it; Danzig, yes.

As to why Germans obsessed over it... it's nationalism.

Interwar Germans, yes. AH'ers in 2012?
 
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Well, for me, it's because I worship Frederick the Great and all things Prussian. Long Live the Kingdom, Long Live the State, Long Live the Hohenzollerns.

You are now my enemy, but the good news is that like the Hohenzollerns you probably have the fighting power of a sack of potatoes.
 

Adler

Banned
That was not so before 1919. Also many Germans were forced to leave in the years after. And their minority rights were never accepted (with even a new wave of anti-German actions in early 1939).

Adler
 

MSZ

Banned
I kind of went with Glen's timeline of Dollfuss being an excuse for German intervention in Austria. Do you have any suggestions on how to keep Dollfuss around and in power enough to cause Germany enough trouble to want to invade?

Well, if your goal is to get Austria united with Germany, why should Germany have to invade it? If it already managed to cosy the entente and the LoN so much, allowing Austria to vote for union with Germany and accept an anschluss democratically wouldn't be impossible. Have a different Austrian Civil War where the democrats win averting fascist rule, create a zollverein with Germany, mutual protection pact and eventually a union. With Italy being aggressive in Africa and Germany not remilitarizing, such a move may get entente acceptance.
 

Glen

Moderator
Yeah no way Dollfuss is going to support a National Socialist coup, one of the biggest platforms of the Nazi's was unification of all Germans under one state. The Milimetternich wanted to keep Austria all to himself.

I kind of went with Glen's timeline of Dollfuss being an excuse for German intervention in Austria. Do you have any suggestions on how to keep Dollfuss around and in power enough to cause Germany enough trouble to want to invade?

Why isn't OTL events enough?:confused:

Well, if your goal is to get Austria united with Germany, why should Germany have to invade it? If it already managed to cosy the entente and the LoN so much, allowing Austria to vote for union with Germany and accept an anschluss democratically wouldn't be impossible.

Not impossible.

Have a different Austrian Civil War where the democrats win averting fascist rule, create a zollverein with Germany, mutual protection pact and eventually a union.

Another possible path.

With Italy being aggressive in Africa and Germany not remilitarizing, such a move may get entente acceptance.

Well, if you don't count Italy as part of the Entente....

Seriously, though, there are a number of ways you could shoot for an Anschluss in a Weimar timeline. They all involve in some way removing Dolfuss from power at some point (or preventing his rise to power). In Weimar World I used the Austrian Civil War for several different purposes. The real question is what does JJohnson want to have in his timeline, and what can he do plausibly to accomplish that.
 
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