What if they don't make it in the 1st place, the natives kill or they don't make it back?
WI: Columbus doesn't make it back
- Thread starter AllActionMan
- Start date
What would be more interesting is if their ships shipwreck off the coast of some Antilles island. Once they come ashore they kill the local man and marry the remaining women creating some hybrid culture. Maybe they Vikingize and rob other islands of their wealth and women. When the Europeans finally come to this island (hopefully as late as possible) they will find one interesting society.
Then there's nothing in the way of the Taino achieving their ultimate ambition of conquering the whole of Europe.
Ha, on a more serious note. Would this mean Columbus's calculations are never taken seriously again? Knowing that Columbus's calculations are wrong and got them killed would anyone want to send a large expidition west again? I could imagine small, low risk expeditions on safer routes (perhaps more northerly ones?) until Europeans build up their confidence and find something worthy in the Americas.
Although it could be possible to Europe Columbus still didn't make it and Columbus not making it from a European point of view is the focus of the thread.
Pedro Álvares Cabral would most likely still stumble upon Brazil as per OTL in 1500, landing on the land Vasco de Gama saw in the distance in 1497, so other than Portugal maybe becoming the primary exploring country of America based out of Northeastern Brazil instead of Spain in the Antilles, i don't think its going to be much to different
Well like Othyrsyde meant with his reaction: not much. America would be discovered within a decade anyway. Maybe the Portuguese would be first which end up with the Aztecs being conquered by Mexico. However because of Spain it's power it would still play a big role next to Portugal.
The Columbus' expedition becomes one of the great controversies of history until at some point in the 20th century remains of a settlement or a ship are found, sort of like Leif Erickson's settlement being discovered in the 1960s.
Then there is a whole bunch of back and forth over who the "real discoverer" of America was with the Italians and Spanish both trying to claim credit for Columbus' legacy.
In the early 21st Century, the whole issue of what would have happened if Columbus had made it back becomes a favorite topic of nerds who are obsessed with alternate history. On alternate history discussion boards it becomes one of the most hotly debated topics along with - What if the Germans had invaded England in 1940?, What if the Confederates had won the Civil War?, What if the Germans had not invaded Belgium in 1914?, and What if the Japanese had not bombed Pearl Harbor?
Then there is a whole bunch of back and forth over who the "real discoverer" of America was with the Italians and Spanish both trying to claim credit for Columbus' legacy.
In the early 21st Century, the whole issue of what would have happened if Columbus had made it back becomes a favorite topic of nerds who are obsessed with alternate history. On alternate history discussion boards it becomes one of the most hotly debated topics along with - What if the Germans had invaded England in 1940?, What if the Confederates had won the Civil War?, What if the Germans had not invaded Belgium in 1914?, and What if the Japanese had not bombed Pearl Harbor?
In all seriousness what might happen is a severely delayed colonization. There's a good chance the Portuguese were just seeing what was on their side of the line the Pope divided the world into for theirs and Spain's colonization efforts. So with Colon's death, they might not bother with veering so wildly far out west when they had a perfectly good plotted route hugging Africa's coasts. There's still all the fishing action in the north Atlantic, which might stumble across some Natives eventually, but without knowledge of the big 'empires of gold' on the mainland, there will also be no incentive to explore further for quite some time. Same goes for even the discovery of the Brazilian coast. It will just be a place of "primitives" and either jungle or forests with no real value (well, Brazilwood could would fetch a price, but it still wasn't the same draw as the potential loot of Mesoamerica and the Andes possessed, even in OTL).
Eventually some white dude will stumble across the Caribbean, but it could be decades later since more efforts will be put on trying to break Portugal's monopoly over trade to the Indian Ocean. Could lead to quite a scramble over Africa's coasts, and the potential for some interesting alliances with African and Asian powers to do so.
Also, if the Euros are coming in from the periphery, it might buy the big indigenous powers more time to adapt to these interlopers, and even play them against each other; or complicate any conquest to severely alter its outcome. Remember the fall of the Aztecs and Inka was often through impeccable timing, luck, and internal divisions.
Eventually some white dude will stumble across the Caribbean, but it could be decades later since more efforts will be put on trying to break Portugal's monopoly over trade to the Indian Ocean. Could lead to quite a scramble over Africa's coasts, and the potential for some interesting alliances with African and Asian powers to do so.
Also, if the Euros are coming in from the periphery, it might buy the big indigenous powers more time to adapt to these interlopers, and even play them against each other; or complicate any conquest to severely alter its outcome. Remember the fall of the Aztecs and Inka was often through impeccable timing, luck, and internal divisions.
Might England or France search around North America to find routes west to get in on the trade in Asia?
Eventually, but with Colombus's example of proving to be fatal they might hesitate for a bit, especially with a route the Portuguese have already scouted. Also, even factoring in the fisheries, they're explorations west will just uncover more hunter gathers and chiefdoms that a re not going to be the draw Mesoamerica was (and they're nowhere near the Aztecs and Maya like the Caribbean is).
Still, it isn't like Portugal is going to just going to bend over, and some monarch will be desperate enough to see if they'll be more successful in finding an alternative route than wasting more ships to Iberian cannons.
Also remember even with the more agricultural gains made later on, like the tobacco plantations, wasn't something thought up overnight. I think it took a desperate English colony seven years to come up with that scheme to make their efforts profitable.
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Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Someone did that in a timeline called the Horse Plague. It was pretty cool but the author never finished it and left us hanging. Of course a real world counterpart would be a society similar to Pitcairn Island, only made up of the descendants of Spanish sailors and Taino women. Depending on the Antilles island, they would be cut off from further European contact for a decade, maybe two. Pitcairn Island was bereft with alcoholism, sexual abuse and disease so the same could be said for your hypothetical mestizo society. You might even have the women conspiring to kill all the Spanish men (not that I would blame them for it) and use their ships to flee back to their homes like the Polynesian women attempted to do with the British sailors.
The best case example is that someone friendly finds this colony and brings the inhabitants back to the motherland or resettling them somewhere else like the British did with the Pitcairn Islanders, offering them a home in Norfolk. The island would be claimed but since there are no islanders to rape and pillage of their gold (and no prior knowledge of the richer civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes), it'll have little attention. Worst possible result is that either the women kill all the men and flee, leaving the colony abandoned or the Caribs raid the island and murder all the men, enslaving the women and taking the weapons of the Spanish.
The desire to find the northwest passage will take hold at some point as the discoveries start to happen.
Someone did that in a timeline called the Horse Plague. It was pretty cool but the author never finished it and left us hanging. Of course a real world counterpart would be a society similar to Pitcairn Island, only made up of the descendants of Spanish sailors and Taino women. Depending on the Antilles island, they would be cut off from further European contact for a decade, maybe two. Pitcairn Island was bereft with alcoholism, sexual abuse and disease so the same could be said for your hypothetical mestizo society. You might even have the women conspiring to kill all the Spanish men (not that I would blame them for it) and use their ships to flee back to their homes like the Polynesian women attempted to do with the British sailors.
The best case example is that someone friendly finds this colony and brings the inhabitants back to the motherland or resettling them somewhere else like the British did with the Pitcairn Islanders, offering them a home in Norfolk. The island would be claimed but since there are no islanders to rape and pillage of their gold (and no prior knowledge of the richer civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes), it'll have little attention. Worst possible result is that either the women kill all the men and flee, leaving the colony abandoned or the Caribs raid the island and murder all the men, enslaving the women and taking the weapons of the Spanish.
Just like Pitcairn this makes a wonderfull scenario for a movie
How men did Columbus his crew have? How many would surive shipwreck and how many natives are there? This could all influence the scenario. I will look it up when I am at home and create some scenario out of it.
Just like Pitcairn this makes a wonderfull scenario for a movie
How men did Columbus his crew have? How many would surive shipwreck and how many natives are there? This could all influence the scenario. I will look it up when I am at home and create some scenario out of it.
I think Columbus had about 90 guys on his first voyage, 39 of whom were left behind at his first settlement after the Santa Maria was wrecked. The easiest scenario is those 39 get left behind and the Pinta and Nina get lost at sea on the way home and nobody knows what happened to them. What happens to those 39 guys?
It might delay it slightly but I doubt by more than a decade or so at the maximum. Look at the sheer effort that Europe put into finding new routes to Asia. It would only be a few years before some other European decided to try. Columbus was the first expedition to the Americas, not the instigator of the age of exploration that led to their discovery. After all the Americas were initially seen in large part as an obstacle to overcome on the quest for a route to China and India.
Outside the people in the town the fleet sailed from, and the king's court, how widely was the Columbus expedition known about before it happened? After they came back how long did it take to be news outside Spain?
The King of England, the King of Portugal, and obviously the monarchy of Spain; plus all their associate courtly figures, advisers, and financiers that thought over the cost and worthiness of such an expedition. And after OTL's return, it became a big sensation. So it wasn't that big of a secret. The Spanish court severely doubted Colombus's expedition would return. It was a gamble to overcome Portugal's efforts in Africa.
But also remember the currents from where he sailed took him to the Caribbean. The French and British will not have the same access; and it will be a while, if ever, Spain tries such a gamble again. More than likely they'll slowly stumble across Newfoundland and such. There won't be a clear way through to the Pacific or any trade roads to China (because they're going to think it's Asia for a while still). What they uncover won't be worth sending more expeditions toward or even more than simple fishing camps and bases. But yes, after a while, or even right away if someone is lucky and ambitious enough, they'll stumble along the Caribbean, and the cultures of the Mississippians and Mesoamerica. But all it takes is for another European kingdom or alliance of kingdoms to challenge Portugal in going over the Cape, and securing their own route to dampen further explorations west even more so (they'll still happen, but the motivation becomes slimmer, and less powerful nations would try it, and have different results and paths in colonization, trade, and missionary work).
Overall I'm not trying to say Europeans would never have discovered the Americas or colonized it if Colombus failed. What I'm trying to say is it would have been different, and more than say Francis Drake doinking Tecuichpo after overthrowing Montezuma in England's conquest of Mexico instead of Cortes. It's going to happen. It could be a decade. It could be fifty years. It really depends on tons of variables, and the specific scenario an AH author wants to take with this POD.
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