WI: Columbus doesn't make it back

True finding Canada or New England isn't MesoAmerica. But if you do would you not start looking for more? Plus one comodity most people do not think about is wood. How short of wood is Europe at this time? I agree shipping firewood across the North Atlantic probably doesn't make sense but what about masts and spars for ships? Beams for building projects? Then there is the inevitable market for furs.

As to likely replacements for the Spanish I wasn't sure just how much blue water sailing the Dutch were doing then. In the 15th century were they mostly coastal fishermen and traders? Somebody with more knowledge on the subject might know
 
With a massive Portuguese trade empire what would it do with itself/use the money for?

How does the Reformation go in Europe with a weaker Spain?

Portugal would be using its money to fend off rivals, and not just European ones.

As for the Reformation, I'd have to give that some thought. I can see a couple of paths this could go. Though from my understanding of Spain's economy at the time, it wasn't until the mid-1500s that all the wealth from the Americas really made a significant impact (though I have been told the one ship that made it back from the first expedition to the Philippines helped fund a lot of Spain's ambitions). So you would most likely see Charles become the Holy Roman Emperor and at least have the resources to pull off most of what he accomplished in his reign of OTL. Can't say for certain though. If this isn't case, and King Francis of France gets to be emperor, that's really going to alter European politics.

True finding Canada or New England isn't MesoAmerica. But if you do would you not start looking for more? Plus one comodity most people do not think about is wood. How short of wood is Europe at this time? I agree shipping firewood across the North Atlantic probably doesn't make sense but what about masts and spars for ships? Beams for building projects? Then there is the inevitable market for furs.

As to likely replacements for the Spanish I wasn't sure just how much blue water sailing the Dutch were doing then. In the 15th century were they mostly coastal fishermen and traders? Somebody with more knowledge on the subject might know

Eventually yes, but you have to factor in who is going to fund these expeditions and even join them. In the 16th century, it was more mercenaries and poorer nobles that went out and did the exploring and conquering. They wanted riches and glory, not to be lumberjacks on the other side of the world.

As for fur and wood, Europe can still get plenty of these resources closer to home, rather than funding an expensive and risky venture that would most likely fail. The needs to justify the cost would come much later in history.

Like it's been said before, if Europeans are coming in from Newfoundland, or even less likely Brazil, they're going to be small camps, probably seasonal. Maybe a few forts once the competition starts. It would probably go more like New France. Very lightly settled, and more about trade for quite some time.
 
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Might not have made it back if Columbus was funded by the Portuguese though I imagine the point of divergence must happen sometime after he got Castilian support. Perhaps the crew mutinies. If they kill Columbus or set him adrift they could try making it back to Iberia after discovering he believed the world to be shaped like a pear. He need not even die if the OP allows him to stay alive and have him agree to turn back to Spain when they found little wind and no land.

True finding Canada or New England isn't MesoAmerica. But if you do would you not start looking for more? Plus one comodity most people do not think about is wood. How short of wood is Europe at this time? I agree shipping firewood across the North Atlantic probably doesn't make sense but what about masts and spars for ships? Beams for building projects? Then there is the inevitable market for furs.
The English considered it but they came to believe the wood was too soft. Also bound to be trouble at home from ship builders not wanting competition if they decided to build ships in the Americas instead of shipping things back. There will likely be a market for the waterproof beaver pelts. And I believe we should also consider what would be used as ballast going there or back.
 
I would prefer he get the ax, considering how he stole the credit for first spotting land so he could get the lifetime pension. Despite claiming to have seen it from the back of the ship.
 
I would prefer he get the ax, considering how he stole the credit for first spotting land so he could get the lifetime pension. Despite claiming to have seen it from the back of the ship.

Which is the least of his epic level of douchebagness, to put it lightly.
 
This brings back the point, though, that putting a city on Manhatten is not nearly of the same scope as bringing the Aztec empire to heel. Would the cod fishing have benefited the Dutch? Sure. But not on anywhere near the scope of plundering Tenochtitlan would have.



You're more ambitious than I, my scenario would be more like beginning with a trading post, depot kind of colony. Dozens of people, maybe low hundreds, not a town of a thousand and more. Supply the fishing boats with tools, barrels, salt, clothes, maybe build and sell replacement boats. Buy the catch on the spot, transport to europe. The cod trade helped make Holland rich. The ports of the Netherlands were too small to compete with the Hanse monopolies of the pre-1492 era.
 
I think Columbus had about 90 guys on his first voyage, 39 of whom were left behind at his first settlement after the Santa Maria was wrecked. The easiest scenario is those 39 get left behind and the Pinta and Nina get lost at sea on the way home and nobody knows what happened to them. What happens to those 39 guys?

Could have a compromise where some of Columbus's men are killed but he comes back with some survivors.

If that happens, that is, if Columbus returns with some survivors, nothing really changes. IOTL, Columbus went with about 90 men, and left 39 in a fort he built. When he return, those men had been killed by natives. It was never clear, IIRC, if they were killed by raiding Caribs (as local Taino stated) or by natives of the Hispaniola (Taino) after a dispute with the Spaniards.


If Columbus men are killed by natives before he leaves, this might change the image Europe has of natives (no more "good savage" idealization. But he can still return with more men. Of course, he might think that, since there's no much gold and natives are fierce fighters, it's not worth to return, But knowing what we know about Colombus, it's likely he will still want to return.

So, if we want to delay the discovery, columbus musn't come back.

Also, although the idea of having columbus men left alone and abandoned in a Caribean island and later found by explorers after 30 years seems attractive, we must bear in mind that is hard to achieve. IOTL Colombus left 39 men IN A FORT, with a CANNON, and with firearms, for LESS THAN TWO YEARS, but when he returned, there was no trace of them. So, nothing guarantees that even if the 90 men are left, they won't be killed by natives in the first years if they act arrogantly as they probably did IOTL.
 
If that happens, that is, if Columbus returns with some survivors, nothing really changes. IOTL, Columbus went with about 90 men, and left 39 in a fort he built. When he return, those men had been killed by natives. It was never clear, IIRC, if they were killed by raiding Caribs (as local Taino stated) or by natives of the Hispaniola (Taino) after a dispute with the Spaniards.


If Columbus men are killed by natives before he leaves, this might change the image Europe has of natives (no more "good savage" idealization. But he can still return with more men. Of course, he might think that, since there's no much gold and natives are fierce fighters, it's not worth to return, But knowing what we know about Colombus, it's likely he will still want to return.

So, if we want to delay the discovery, columbus musn't come back.

Also, although the idea of having columbus men left alone and abandoned in a Caribean island and later found by explorers after 30 years seems attractive, we must bear in mind that is hard to achieve. IOTL Colombus left 39 men IN A FORT, with a CANNON, and with firearms, for LESS THAN TWO YEARS, but when he returned, there was no trace of them. So, nothing guarantees that even if the 90 men are left, they won't be killed by natives in the first years if they act arrogantly as they probably did IOTL.

The Taino killed them all. The guys were wandering around, kiddnapping girls, raping wives, and just being assholes. One of the Casikes (their leaders), that was friendly toward Colombus tried to blame it on the Caribs to alleviate his own part in destroying La Navidad.

And you're right, it's extremely unlikely they would have "Killed all the men and took the women" as was suggested earlier:rolleyes:. The Taino were not tiny bands of Amazonian type Natives. They had a sophisticated society, an advanced and low-labor style of agriculture, domesticated ducks and dogs, and villages that were populated in the thousands.
 
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