Allied D Day Air Superiority Denied

Despite the Allies having total air superiority, the Germans still managed to move large amounts of troops and materiel around, enough to endanger the success and breakout of the invasion for 6 weeks. WI the Germans had had enough air power, to massively impede the freedom of the allied bombers and fighter-bombers over the invasion area, and with what effect on the war? Could the invasion have been imperilled even weeks after D Day?

If Hitler hadn't meddled in the development of the ME262, it is possible that the Nazi's would have had the necessary airpower to do just that. However, I don't see the Allies attempting an invasion without air superiority.

Torqumada

Degrees of air supremacy

AXIS LOSE

It is plausible to ask what is the Allies had a less overwhelming degree of air superiority. Early development of the Me262, no Big Week, earlier and more complete German economic mobilization. But the Allies would still have a lesser degree of air superiority. What happens? Invasion suffers more Allied casualties but it still succeeds. Breakout of Allies are slowed but not prevented. Bottom line is Hitler kills himself 2-3 weeks later than OTL.

The massive amount of airpower needed to deny the Allies any degree of air superiority is not a plausble assumption with any basis in military and economic reality. If this thread starts going off on the jet figthers theme, please note that had some serious tactical and operational limitations.

Late World War Two POD's make very little difference.

Tom

Torqumada said:

If Hitler hadn't meddled in the development of the ME262, it is possible that the Nazi's would have had the necessary airpower to do just that. However, I don't see the Allies attempting an invasion without air superiority.

Torqumada

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so what're the Germans giving up to make jets?

Ressources going to the Death Camps and the genocide in the east, prefferable. But yeah, it were the Nazis, so, unlikely...

Faeelin said:

so what're the Germans giving up to make jets?

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Hitler insisted that the ME262, which had been designed as a fighter, be redesigned as a bomber, in order to retaliate for American and British bombing of German cities. Full scale production was ready for the fighter version in November of 43. Hitler didn't really relent on his decision until late 44. That made it too late for the 262 to make any difference. I agree, that it may have not prevented the invasion or the path the war took, but it would have made a difference.

Torqumada

On D-day most of the Luftwaffe was grounded due to fuel shortages, and Me262's doesn't fly any better without fuel than any other plane. But give the Germans access to fuel and strategic resources and the job becomes much more difficult for the allies, Me262 or not. And if Russia is defeated at the time of D-day (which would be the way to secure Axis access to fuel etc.) I think D-day is nighon impossible - Me262 or not.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Redbeard said:

On D-day most of the Luftwaffe was grounded due to fuel shortages, and Me262's doesn't fly any better without fuel than any other plane. But give the Germans access to fuel and strategic resources and the job becomes much more difficult for the allies, Me262 or not. And if Russia is defeated at the time of D-day (which would be the way to secure Axis access to fuel etc.) I think D-day is nighon impossible - Me262 or not.

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So if Germany gains access to fuel and strategic resources, and Russia is defeated, then the allied invasion of Europe is impossible.

I agree with that. I merely disagree that the Nazis could have produced enough of them to matter.

Quick two minute search:

Messerschmitt Me 262
The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (Swallow) was the first operational jet powered fighter aircraft. It saw limited action during the end of World War II. German pilots nicknamed it the Turbo, while to the allies they were blow jobs.

Although often viewed as a last ditch super-weapon, the Me 262 was actually under development before the start of WWII. Plans were first drawn up in April 1939, and the original design was very similar to the plane that would eventually enter service. The first test flights began in April 1941, but since the BMW 003 turbojets were not ready for fitting, a conventional Junkers Jumo 210 engine was mounted in the nose in order to test the airframe. When the BMW 003 engines were finally installed the Jumo was retained for safety reasons; this proved wise as on the first flight with the 003's both of them failed in-flight and the pilot had to land the plane with the nose mounted engine alone.

It was the third airframe that was to become a true jet plane when it took to the air on July 18 1942 in Leipheim near Günzburg, Germany, piloted by Fritz Wendel. Instead of the planned 003 engines which were proving unreliable, the Jumo 004A-0 had become available and was installed in its place. The 004 was heavier than the 003, and as a result the center of gravity of the plane would have been too far forward for safety. Moving the engines to the rear was a simple solution to the problem, but as they were mounted centered on the wing spars this wasn't easy to do. The solution was to bend the wings themselves to the rear, leading to the enduring myth that the plane was designed as a swept-wing fighter.

Test flights continued over the next year but the engines continued to be completely unreliable. Although all modifications to the airframe design were completed by 1942, they didn't enter production until 1944 when the engines finally started to work. Even then they rarely managed to last 12 hours, and it was not uncommon to have them explode during their first run-up tests. Planes often ended combat with one or both engines dead.

Another problem with the jet engine is that they have poor thrust at low speed, it's only once the plane is up and running that they come into their own. They also throttle up poorly because it's very easy to burn more fuel than you need, and the heat builds up inside and melts the end of the engine off. These problems made the plane very difficult to land. If there was any problem with the approach there was practically nothing you could do because the thrust would come on after you had hit the ground.(getting behind the power curve; The same is likely true of the T-33, originally the P-80). Allied fighter pilots quickly learned of this problem and started attacking the jet fields during landings.

Even with all of these problems the plane was clearly pointing to the end of the propeller aircraft as a fighting machine. Once the plane was in the air it quickly accelerated to speeds well over 500mph, over 100mph faster than anything in the air. As long as the pilot flew the plane correctly, it simply flew right past the opposing fighters and tore into the bombers with its heavy armament of four 30mm cannons. In the hands of an even better pilot, the plane could run down P-51's so fast that the opposing pilots simply couldn't get out of the way in time.

In the end the state of the Luftwaffe was such that the plane rarely flew, and the overwhelming numbers of allied planes meant they had no overall effect on the war. On March 18th 1945 thirty-seven Me 262s intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. They managed to shoot down 12 bombers and 1 fighter for the loss of 3 Me 262s. Although 4 to 1 exchange numbers were exactly what the Luftwaffe was dreaming about, it represents only 1% of the attacking force -- more were lost to mechanical problems.

http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/m/messerschmitt-me-262.html

1943 Invasion

In 1943 the Allies would not have had overwhelming air superiority. But the beach defences weren't ready yet. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
The primary problem for jet engines back in 1943 was that the alloys were refractory and oxidation resistant enough. They needed the maraging superalloys, and they didn't have them. They didn't even have titanium at the time.
It's a matter of hot creep strength that lets you engineer very close tolerances between the turbine blades and the cylinder walls. In internal combustion engines you have piston rings and oil seals. In a jet engine you have hot gasses blowing by, instead of through the rotors. The faster you spin them and the hotter they are, the more they stretch, until they touch...
Even ordinary alloys were in very short supply for Germany. Chrome, Nickel, Molybdenum, Vanadium, Manganese, Cobalt, Niobium, Tantalum, Tungsten...Hell, if even one of those German battleships had gone into imported ores stockpiles.

The Germans were behind the Allies in radar, but ahead of them in infra-red detection.

Their "Wasserfal", "Schmetterling" and "Rheintochter" AA missiles came very close to deployment.
http://www.cloudster.com/RealHardware/Wasserfal/WasserfalTop.htm
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/wunderwaffen/missile/schmetterling/schmetterling.html
http://www.cloudster.com/RealHardware/Rheintochter/RheintochterTop.htm

WI the Germans had had them a year earlier:
1.Enough to make the invasion area untenable for Allied aircraft?
2.Enough to make all of Europe untenable for Allied aircraft?

If aircraft losses had reached 25%, would we have the usual end scenario: Berlin and Nuremberg being nuked by a high flying B29 in August 1945?

With a failed or contained invasion, the Germans being largely relieved from the bombing campaign and holding the Russians in Poland and Hungary (oilfields) how would the war likely have progressed between July 1944 and August 1945? How would the Germans have been able to strike back at the Allies, apart from many many more V1s & V2 hitting London, and more ships lost to XXIs?

AA missile technology

The first decent AA missiles were analog infrared guided. They were surprising effective for something so primitive. But they only worked against the hot naked metal of jet engines from behind. They were no good against the exhausts of piston engines.
Later digital radar guided missiles caught up with the IR sidewinders, but it took a while. In 1943 you would have been lucky to get a decent guided missile at all.
Otherwise unguided missiles just go up higher than guns. The hit probability is ridiculous. Now if the Germans had decent digital computers attached to their existing antiaircraft guns and radars, then the air war would have ground to a complete halt. Germans had a huge amount of AA and ammunition. If they could actually have hit anything with it...

Too late, German statisticians showed that many more aircraft would be hit by actually firing to directly hit the aircraft, rather than using predictors and time-fusing mechanisms to produce a box barrage.

This was tried on a few occasions, and the decreased delay and increased rate of fire and accuracy did indeed bring down an increased number of B24s in February and March 1945. If this had been known a year earlier, the losses to flak, merely a continuous but smarting drizzle in OTL, could have actually become painful.

Of course, if the Germans had had proximity fuses for their 88 and 128mm guns, like the US Navy used in their 5" guns against the Kamikazes and the British in their 3.7" guns against the Doodlebugs, that would have massively stymied the bombing campaign

You are so right

Proctol said:

Too late, German statisticians showed that many more aircraft would be hit by actually firing to directly hit the aircraft, rather than using predictors and time-fusing mechanisms to produce a box barrage.

This was tried on a few occasions, and the decreased delay and increased rate of fire and accuracy did indeed bring down an increased number of B24s in February and March 1945. If this had been known a year earlier, the losses to flak, merely a continuous but smarting drizzle in OTL, could have actually become painful.

Of course, if the Germans had had proximity fuses for their 88 and 128mm guns, like the US Navy used in their 5" guns against the Kamikazes and the British in their 3.7" guns against the Doodlebugs, that would have massively stymied the bombing campaign

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One of the advantages of having the world's largest consumer electronics industry is stuff like being able to make miniature (and therefore shock resistant) vacuum tubes. Which is why I am comforted that the US is spending more on biotechnology than the rest of the world together. Sure, we're subsidizing the Chinese and the Indians and the Japanese and especially the Europeans, but at least we have some military capability to show for it.