WI: Harsher Treaty of Versailles, independent East Prussia?
- Thread starter Iggies
- Start date
Realpolitik
Banned
No. The Germans will go down fighting rather than accept that, and the Allies do not have the stomach nor the means for ethnic cleansing on that scale in 1919. How is Poland going to be functional with all those Germans there?
It wouldn't really be ethnic cleansing though, would it? The Germans wouldn't be displaced or killed, just made citizens of new nations.
As for Poland's functionality, Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia were functional despite all the Poles within their borders, right?
Can you smoothen out the Netherlands border as well? Chuck in Aachen and east Friesland too. Maybe the Ruhrgebied also.
Because when we're talking about things the Germans will flat out refuse, we should at least show the Dutch some love.
Germany would fight on if presented this at Versailles. The treaty they signed was bad enough.
Edit; Feel I was abrupt. The allies would have had to have utterly destroyed the German military and be in possession of their whole country to be able to dictate terms like these. Denmark gaining so much doesn't make sense, Poland gaining so much too. Neither side fought against Germany (the poles not having their own country didn't help) and giving such large German areas to other countries would likely destabilize them. Millions of discontented ethnic Germans are hardly any newly formed state's dream citizens. They will likely rebel or secede. They make a stable Poland untenable.
Because when we're talking about things the Germans will flat out refuse, we should at least show the Dutch some love.
Germany would fight on if presented this at Versailles. The treaty they signed was bad enough.
Edit; Feel I was abrupt. The allies would have had to have utterly destroyed the German military and be in possession of their whole country to be able to dictate terms like these. Denmark gaining so much doesn't make sense, Poland gaining so much too. Neither side fought against Germany (the poles not having their own country didn't help) and giving such large German areas to other countries would likely destabilize them. Millions of discontented ethnic Germans are hardly any newly formed state's dream citizens. They will likely rebel or secede. They make a stable Poland untenable.
Last edited:
Realpolitik
Banned
I don't think you quite understand what the average German thought of Poles and Poland in the 1920s. Absolutely NO WAY they will accept Polish citizenship. It's going to be ugly.
Turning territory over to Poland is only going to cause more headaches than it's worth. Ethnic cleansing would HAVE to be executed.
Now, an independent East Prussia isn't out of the question - there's a precedent -, but it's going to be a Rhenish Republic-type banana entity, led by a shady circle of puppet politicians who'll be lynched the moment the League of Nations turns a blind eye to its affairs.
Now, an independent East Prussia isn't out of the question - there's a precedent -, but it's going to be a Rhenish Republic-type banana entity, led by a shady circle of puppet politicians who'll be lynched the moment the League of Nations turns a blind eye to its affairs.
The problem with this scenario is that the Poles themselves did not want nearly as much as the map here gives them. Dmowski and his associates who did the negotiating at Versailles were not out to do the biggest possible land grab, but had a clear idea of what territories Poland should have and what would be too much. They knew very well that including too many Germans would cause massive problems, and simply did not think in terms of ethnic cleansing. The maximum Polish demands at Versailles amounted to what Poland eventually got plus the two plebiscite zones and Danzig, and the Poles would simply decline large chunks of additional German territory.
Same for the danish expansion.
All OTL plebiscite areas? Sure, why not?
Schleswig completely? Maybe. (if Denmark doesn't mind Germany being resentful)
But Holstein on top of that? More than doubtful.
I actually didn't know that. I wasn't aware there more non-Germans in the eastern reaches of the German Empire.
like Hell any Leader who sign that will be killed
and all lets HEIL HITLER (or another Crazy Leader) the stab in back myth is bad enough...
and all lets HEIL HITLER (or another Crazy Leader) the stab in back myth is bad enough...
That's an interesting idea. Would love to see a TL on the rise of "Austria-Bavaria".
The problem is that Austria is being dismembered too. So being 'rewarded' with Bavaria seems unlikely.
It might work as a divide and rule type deal to prevent Austria and rump Germany being allies again, but that seems likely to backfire - it could lead to a quicker reunification as there will be a greater 'German' identity in Austria. (I could be wrong though)
To get Austria-Bavaria perhaps an 1860 pod would be easier?
erm, usually you want to create independent countries filled with people who want to stay independent and not return to the fatherland as soon as possible.
it's the reason why all those "let's dissovle germany!" ideas were doomed to fail - no one living there would have supported it.
it's the reason why all those "let's dissovle germany!" ideas were doomed to fail - no one living there would have supported it.
No-one was thinking in terms of the Oder-Neisse line in 1919. Not even the wildest, most unrealistic Polish nationalists.
What might happen is for the Czechs to get all of historic Silesia as they wanted and for Poland to get the pre-partition border and to get the plebiscite areas in East Prussia assigned to them outright (the Mausurians in the South of East Prussia were Polish speaking, but due to being Protestants they felt themselves more German than Polish which is why they voted to stay part of Germany IOTL).
Also, while we are talking about land people didn't want - the Danes would not want all of Schleswig-Holstein - they saw it as being too German.
While the new nations in the East are getting all this land, France must certainly get more of Germany - at least the Saar would become French, possibly the whole of the Rhineland (though more likely it would become an independent state allied to France).
Getting back to Prussia, I have a hard time seeing Prussia separated from Germany even in a max-Germany screw. What might happen is that Prussia declares independence from Germany - there was a plan to preserve the Eastern parts of Germany by them declaring independence and then telling the allies with a sincere face that they really weren't a bunch of German army officers and junkers trying to preserve their power. The plan does not seem to ever have been taken seriously and I have a hard time imagining a TL in which it might become so.
The allies did consider breaking Germany up after the end of WW1 - a TL where this happens might lead to an Austro-Bavarian union, but I don't see it happening directly. More likely, Bavaria would be made independent, Austria is reduced to a rump, then, as Prussia recovers its power in the late 20s, France and Britain start to change their policies in Central Europe, and when the Great Depression hits, things have changed enough that the pair give their blessing to an Austria-Bavaria union (the depression saw an upsurge in desire for Anschluss IOTL, so I'm assuming something similar happens in this balkanized Germany scenario).
fasquardon
What might happen is for the Czechs to get all of historic Silesia as they wanted and for Poland to get the pre-partition border and to get the plebiscite areas in East Prussia assigned to them outright (the Mausurians in the South of East Prussia were Polish speaking, but due to being Protestants they felt themselves more German than Polish which is why they voted to stay part of Germany IOTL).
Also, while we are talking about land people didn't want - the Danes would not want all of Schleswig-Holstein - they saw it as being too German.
While the new nations in the East are getting all this land, France must certainly get more of Germany - at least the Saar would become French, possibly the whole of the Rhineland (though more likely it would become an independent state allied to France).
Getting back to Prussia, I have a hard time seeing Prussia separated from Germany even in a max-Germany screw. What might happen is that Prussia declares independence from Germany - there was a plan to preserve the Eastern parts of Germany by them declaring independence and then telling the allies with a sincere face that they really weren't a bunch of German army officers and junkers trying to preserve their power. The plan does not seem to ever have been taken seriously and I have a hard time imagining a TL in which it might become so.
The allies did consider breaking Germany up after the end of WW1 - a TL where this happens might lead to an Austro-Bavarian union, but I don't see it happening directly. More likely, Bavaria would be made independent, Austria is reduced to a rump, then, as Prussia recovers its power in the late 20s, France and Britain start to change their policies in Central Europe, and when the Great Depression hits, things have changed enough that the pair give their blessing to an Austria-Bavaria union (the depression saw an upsurge in desire for Anschluss IOTL, so I'm assuming something similar happens in this balkanized Germany scenario).
fasquardon
Last edited:
The Oder-Neisse line I think is way too much for the new border even if Imperial Russia survived the war by doing much better on the Eastern Front and significantly helped contribute to the defeat of Germany and Austria-Hungary. What might be more reasonable in my opinion would be the provinces of Posen and Silesia east of the Oder river since I believe they were ethnically majority Polish, you could maybe make an argument for West Prussia as IIRC if you include the Kashubians they and the Poles formed a small majority, the big problem you run into is that the roughly northern half of Eastern Prussia is solidly German.
Again the problem is all those pesky Germans sitting about the place, I'm not sure that the Danes would really be all that interested in the idea and potential trouble it could bring. You could maybe get away with transferring say part of northern Schleswig but not all of it and certainly not any of Holstein.
Poland had 1921 a population of27 million People. Of this were 18 Million Poles and 1 Million Germans. Add to this 12 Million Germans from the Oder-Neisse and the Poles are a minority.
LordKalvert
Banned
Independent South German States Bavaria, Baden Wurtemburg would be easy to achieve. You could also enlarge Saxony, give it back its territory she lost in the Napoleonic Wars for example.
Recreating places like Hanover would be a bit difficult but possible. Dissolving the Reich would give France what she desperately wanted- Independence. Its also why the British were unlikely to agree.
To achieve it, all you have to do is dissolve the national institutions- the Reichstag, the Navy and the Army. Almost all internal German affairs were handled by the Princes so the institutions already existed. It would prevent a Hitler from ever emerging
But people in Germany don't want to their country to be dismembered, there were two types of nationalism in Germany and most Germans would fall into one of those schools (1848-style liberal unification and militarist Prussian-style unification)