WI: A more proactive Japan
- Thread starter purebeefwang
- Start date
Yeah. Like, say, when Toyotomi dies, the power struggle in Japan gives the Koreans a chance
Every Korean has an inner Quran...
Well, the Manchus did take over China after the Japanese went into Korea that one time. Perhaps the Hui move in instead and for a Sultanate.
Looks like an Islamic Chinese Empire is a more interesting scenario.
Nah, an early proactive Japan is interesting. It's just that there needs to be a good reason for it. They can't just all wake up one morning and go 'Bored now, what's over the horizon'
Not accusing you of doing that, btw, just saying that finding a POD that works is tricky. But if you can find one and make sure it has legs, then go for it.
Nah, an early proactive Japan is interesting. It's just that there needs to be a good reason for it. They can't just all wake up one morning and go 'Bored now, what's over the horizon'
That sounds like what an ASB does. Every time.
Yes, there must be a valid reason for Japan to be more active in foreign relations, otherwise it's just ASB trick.
I was thinking the Mongol invasion is the easiest POD, so far.
If you set the POD during the 1th century, it might be possible to have an english pilot lleads a fleet of dutch trading ships half way round the world. On the journey all the ships sink save one, That ship then crashes into japan and the remaining crew goes ashore where they are accused of being Pirates by the Portuguese, (because say the Portuguese dislike the fact that the merchants are heretics) they then get thrown into jail.That's why I wanted to find a good POD that will give Japan a reason explore the seas instead of being a semi-isolated country.
Is the premise really that impossible? I was hoping to write a TL about this?
then the pilot gets taken before the Shogun, and unexpectedly impresses him, so he lives with the Japanese and learns to speak Japanese and the Shogun asks him to build western style ships for him.
Because of his friendship with the Shogun , the shogun is open to promoting trade with Eurropean Nations, making him a trade adviser, and a Samurai. Eventually he marries a Japanese woman and makes contact with the English in Bantam, so that they set up a trading factory in Japan and the Pilot then trades between Siam Vietnam and Japan with the Shoguns blessing,
Eventually he helps the Japanese with plans for an invasion of the Philipines so that Japan can start forming an overseas Empire.
You mean the plot of Shogun? Anyways, why would they want to start an overseas empire? Part of why they went into seclusion was so that the Shoguns could weaken the southern lords who were getting rich form trade, as well as to take control of foreign affairs. On the part of the shogun, I mean.
The 16th century! It could happen.I'm pretty sure this is highly improbable.
What?
The serious issue with any of this is when, there don't seem that much in the way of windows where Japan can be proactive, because it wasn't much of state at times. Kamakura Japan seems unlikely, although I admitted don't know much, baring the Hojo did cause some serious trouble. The Muromachi period is basically too decentralized for anything to get done, unless you have some insane or ambitious daimyo. Although you did have the colonization of Hokkaido by decree from the Shogun, again it was done by clan, or a clan in this case
A theoretical Oda Japan might work if you avoid the Honnoji incident, but the invasion of China and maybe Korea where still Nobunaga's brainchildren, so maybe he dies right after he unites Japan and hope that his son isn't too keen on following in his footsteps. Toyotomi has no legitimacy, which lead to the Imjin war shenanigans, and the Tokugawa would be unlikely by then, considering they wanted stability more than anything.
The other question is even Japan does get itself under a centralized state without out all the infighting, why go to these far off places?
A theoretical Oda Japan might work if you avoid the Honnoji incident, but the invasion of China and maybe Korea where still Nobunaga's brainchildren, so maybe he dies right after he unites Japan and hope that his son isn't too keen on following in his footsteps. Toyotomi has no legitimacy, which lead to the Imjin war shenanigans, and the Tokugawa would be unlikely by then, considering they wanted stability more than anything.
The other question is even Japan does get itself under a centralized state without out all the infighting, why go to these far off places?
trurle
Banned
This actually did happened OTL. With zero results. In 16th century the pattern of seclusion was pretty much established and cannot be broken easily. You should understand what the Sakoku_Edict_of_1635 was not the first one. The previous Japan seclusion events were 663 AD (Battle of Baekgang), 907 AD (Sugawara no Michizane plus plague), 1274 AD(Battle of Bun'ei), 1350 AD(Kannō disturbance), 1523 AD(Ningbo Incident).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_Masamune
- how attempts to make proactive Japan were handled
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_(sailor)
- the story you mentioned. It ends differently IOTL.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Japanese_history
- general reference
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The Hui can't "move in," they're already there.
The Hui are also not interested in jihad or conversion, like many other Muslim peoples in the fringes of the Dar al-Islam like the Dyula in West Africa. If we look at the Mi Layin rebellion in Gansu in 1646, it is virtually indistinguishable from other "Restore Ming" movements despite the extensive Hui element in the rebellion.
trurle
Banned
Sorry, i just thought you seen some fictionalized movie based on William Adams adventure. Did not realized you know he was authentic.
As about foreign trade profitability..Japan of 16th century had problems. Simply too weak domestic consumers base. Even William Adams had a financial problems with his trading post. Many profit-seeking Japanese merchants (the ones who has the chance to be most influential) have left Japan altogether, assimilating in China or Malaysia. Also, the main export of Japan was .. sex slaves. Not very stable disposition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_diaspora#Early_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paco,_Manila
- the 16th century Japanese colony in Philippines
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trurle
Banned
Absolutely correct.
Korean did invaded Japan back in 1419 Ōei Invasion
As result, the Japanese Wokou pirates has become Chinese Wokou.
It was "not noticed" in China for propaganda purposes though.
16th century sounds a bit of a stretch already. That's why I chose an earlier POD to minimize the impact of culture shock on the Japanese.
I don't know if they would want to reach the New World, but a more proactive Japan could easily colonise Hokkaido and Sakhalin centuries ahead of schedule (and not lose the area to the Russians if/when they show up), and maybe establish control over Taiwan (which if I recall, one of the leaders of 16th century Japan wanted to).