WI: A more proactive Japan

purebeefwang

That's why I wanted to find a good POD that will give Japan a reason explore the seas instead of being a semi-isolated country.

Is the premise really that impossible? I was hoping to write a TL about this? :(
 

mlp

Seigen said:
That's why I wanted to find a good POD that will give Japan a reason explore the seas instead of being a semi-isolated country.

Is the premise really that impossible? I was hoping to write a TL about this? :(
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Sorry, mate(goddamn, now I feel terrible for stopping a TL).
Here are some good PODs for a Japan-wank if you're interested:
  • Mongol invasions of Japan succeed(establish beachhead+base), Japan gains quicker access to new tech from the Pax Mongolica.
  • Japanese colonies in the Philippines and Cambodia(late 16th century, planned but never executed OTL)
  • Japan succeeds in cutting deal with Ming during invasion of Korea(OTL the envoy somehow fucked up the message originally sent), gets four southern provinces of Korea
  • Japanese invasion of Korea, 1875(search: Seikanron)
 

purebeefwang

A more successful Mongol invasion is actually one of the PODs I have in mind. The other one is Taira victory in the Genpei War.
 

mlp

Seigen said:
A more successful Mongol invasion is actually one of the PODs I have in mind. The other one is Taira victory in the Genpei War.
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I'm interested to discuss what its ramifications would be, because to me that just sounds like another clan.
 
The Forty-Eighth Rōnin

The Forty-Eighth Rōnin

Hey, I have a similar idea too. I was trying to write a TL about the Taira Shogunate. And since the Taira is a sea-oriented clan, naval expansion isn't far-fetched for Japan. One interesting fact is that the clan's greatest leader, Kiyomori, was once a pirate hunter.
 

trurle

Banned
The Japan has several bouts of interest to the outside world. All of them ended similarly - by diseases, invaders or both brought back by ships. Rather than breaking the pattern, it may be better to avoid pattern of seclusion/contact in the first place.
It mean the 663 AD. With Battle of Baekgang won by Japanese, Japan may have more genetic diversity, more disease resistance, and more vital overseas interests, so Japanese open-society model can become the norm.

The question is, how? Seems the Japanese were severely outclassed by Tang navy. Any way to butterfly away Tang advantage?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Japanese_history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baekgang
 

trurle

Banned
Captain Orange said:
Hey, I have a similar idea too. I was trying to write a TL about the Taira Shogunate. And since the Taira is a sea-oriented clan, naval expansion isn't far-fetched for Japan. One interesting fact is that the clan's greatest leader, Kiyomori, was once a pirate hunter.
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Taira Kiyomori had no chance. The Japan was not ready for unification during his rule. Nearly nobody supported his claim for control over Japan. Actually i do not quite understand the trend..seems the unity of Japanese people peaked around 1300 and gradually degraded later, resulting in the Sengoku period. But what was the factor driving the disintegration trend? Genetic drift? Corruption? Population growth? Spread of some ideas?

Seems the non-samurai governments before Taira Kiyomori had lead the country to stability, while starting from him (~1270) unity have started to fall apart until Oda Nobunaga in ~1550. But this may be just a coincidence.
 
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trurle

Banned
zeppelinair said:
You may be mistaking 白村江の戦い for some colonial assault on Korea when it was more for Baekje than Yamato Japan. This probably does not fix the issue.
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Very Korean answer. Temper your paranoid thoughts, or you will discover colonizers just under your bed tonight.:p

As about context of battle Battle of Baekgang:
Yamato people of the period have clearly searched to keep the Silla-Tang alliance in bay. By reviving Baekje if necessary (most likely, Baekje was considered a lesser evil by Yamato leaders). If this plot be successful, the Gogureyo, after crushing Silla, may regain a full political independence from China. (instead of being destroyed in 668 AD) The results will be stronger Japan and stronger Korea in the expense of China. In this case the Haijin policy (which may have contributed to Japan isolation) is likely to be butterflied away as it would be clearly suicidal for the now weakened China.
 
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theg*ddam*hoi2fan

theg*ddam*hoi2fan

This is an interesting question that I'd love to answer, but my level of knowledge about samurai-era Japan fluctuates - I know about the Sengoku era and what followed, but before that all I can really say is 'there were samurai. Lots of them' :p

That said... A successful Mongol invasion could help. If it succeeds, but doesn't last for too long, then it could encourage Japan to look more outside its own borders, and adopt new technologies. At the very least, develop a fleet rather than relying on Raijin and Fujin for their defence :p

A fleet could lead to taking the Philippines under their rule. Which in turn could lead to trade with SE Asia. And with trade can come intervention.

And my limited knowledge is showing, isn't it...
 

mlp

trurle said:
Very Korean answer. Temper your paranoid thoughts, or you will discover colonizers just under your bed tonight.:p
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That was a terrible joke if meant one. My response was mainly due to many Japanese arguing about the whole 任那日本府 nonsense when on similar topics.
trurle said:
snip
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Agreed, although I doubt one battle won means an end to Chinese hegemony in East Asia.
 

purebeefwang

A POD on the Battle of Baekgang might drastically change both Korea and Japan as we know it. I don't think I can handle that Mothra-sized butterfly.

About the Taira idea, it was actually a more recent one. I just got interested in that time period when I started playing Shogun 2 Rise of the Samurai. :p
 

mlp

theg*ddam*hoi2fan said:
I'd still say a successful Mongol invasion could inspire Japan to build a larger fleet earlier.
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Definitely, although similar things happened elsewhere and not all were translated to reactions:

  • Korea - Invaded by Japan - minimal military reforms
  • China - Taiping Rebellion - self-strengthening movement(barely anything, considering the size of the Rebellion)
 
theg*ddam*hoi2fan

theg*ddam*hoi2fan

zeppelinair said:
Definitely, although similar things happened elsewhere and not all were translated to reactions:

  • Korea - Invaded by Japan - minimal military reforms
  • China - Taiping Rebellion - self-strengthening movement(barely anything, considering the size of the Rebellion)
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Point... Though in Korea's case they won, so wouldn't inertia have been easier to set in? Like 'We beat the Eastern Devils, why do we need to change?'. Might have been different if they'd lost but then regained independence at a later date...
 
theg*ddam*hoi2fan

theg*ddam*hoi2fan

zeppelinair said:
Essentially what happened. The military was heavily stigmatised ever since the 80-year Junta government, and nobody was willing to make any substantial reforms to the army.
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Like I say: if Korea had lost, but then managed to win back independence later, I foresee very different attitudes coming along...

Likewise, if the Mongols had won over Japan, they might have gone 'Maybe we need a more viable defence against naval attack than the kami...'
 

mlp

theg*ddam*hoi2fan said:
Like I say: if Korea had lost, but then managed to win back independence later, I foresee very different attitudes coming along...

Likewise, if the Mongols had won over Japan, they might have gone 'Maybe we need a more viable defence against naval attack than the kami...'
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Ooh, so like 'Japan retains Korea after war but gets beaten back after a few years'? Interesting scenario.
 
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