I made that point earlier, thanks. Neither man was justified in what he did.
Was Yeager justified?
- Thread starter Nerdlinger
- Start date
I made that point earlier, thanks. Neither man was justified in what he did.
This was one of the plot points that made me hate this series. After the ENTIRE WORLD was almost enslaved by imperialistic aliens, the remaining free powers couldn't pull their heads out of the sand and see that they had to "hang together, or hang separately." Worse yet (to me at least) was the cultural imitation of the Race by the younger generation in America, it makes no sense that anyone would want to imitate the bastards after they literally rampaged through half the country, or that such imitation would survive the MASSIVE social stigma it would entail. It would be like teens in the 60's imitating Nazi's, soviets, or imperial Japanese; heavily discouraged. Almost everyone suffered from the war with Race, there's no way in hell they'd let their kids become so chummy with them.
The world had plenty of advance warning about the colonization fleet, but did very little to prepare for it. The only logical courses of action were: 1) Launch a co-ordinated sneak attack on the Race ~2 years before the colonization fleet arrives, divvy up the earth and make provisions for equitable space colonization, then either send the fleet back or nuke 'em. 2) let the fleet land unhindered and plan to overtake them in the long run with superior technology. By the time the fleet lands the Race's position on Earth is completely solidified, short of a VERY bloody war there's nothing that can uproot them. It seemed to me that the best choice was to strike hard before they could take root, and with a common enemy, unlimited space in the stars, and semi sane rulers (Molotov and Himmler) some sort of arrangement between the big 3 should have been possible. Warren's plot to lob a nuke at the fleet was (dubiously) morally justifiable, but very, very foolish as it risked too much for too little gain. Morally it's similar to American Indians sinking European colony ships en route to the New World, nasty but justifiable.
Yaegar's attitude throughout the series simply disgusts me. He seems to have completely forgotten that the Race are deadly enemies with long term plans to subjugate the entire world, not peace loving fluffy bunnies. By all means try to understand them and attempt to reach peaceful settlements to Race/Tosevite problems, but never forget just how deadly and ideologically opposed they are. As has been pointed out before, telling the Race about the attack, while honest, was idiotic because it could start a war we could loose. Risking the future of the human race just to make yourself feel better is in my eyes the worst kind of "feel good morality" and utterly despicable.
The world had plenty of advance warning about the colonization fleet, but did very little to prepare for it. The only logical courses of action were: 1) Launch a co-ordinated sneak attack on the Race ~2 years before the colonization fleet arrives, divvy up the earth and make provisions for equitable space colonization, then either send the fleet back or nuke 'em. 2) let the fleet land unhindered and plan to overtake them in the long run with superior technology. By the time the fleet lands the Race's position on Earth is completely solidified, short of a VERY bloody war there's nothing that can uproot them. It seemed to me that the best choice was to strike hard before they could take root, and with a common enemy, unlimited space in the stars, and semi sane rulers (Molotov and Himmler) some sort of arrangement between the big 3 should have been possible. Warren's plot to lob a nuke at the fleet was (dubiously) morally justifiable, but very, very foolish as it risked too much for too little gain. Morally it's similar to American Indians sinking European colony ships en route to the New World, nasty but justifiable.
Yaegar's attitude throughout the series simply disgusts me. He seems to have completely forgotten that the Race are deadly enemies with long term plans to subjugate the entire world, not peace loving fluffy bunnies. By all means try to understand them and attempt to reach peaceful settlements to Race/Tosevite problems, but never forget just how deadly and ideologically opposed they are. As has been pointed out before, telling the Race about the attack, while honest, was idiotic because it could start a war we could loose. Risking the future of the human race just to make yourself feel better is in my eyes the worst kind of "feel good morality" and utterly despicable.
JSmith
Banned
Right .Why should Yeager catch the blame for revealing a risk that Warren took? If something had happened surely Warren would still deserve the lion share of the blame.
JSmith
Banned
The idea that human Nazis are no worse than the Race or better than them because they are human is pretty laughable I think.
Kind of hard to hide your involvement after massive, planet-wide nuclear attack.
That dictionary was written before Race showed up.
Of course alien ideology could be much worse and which point it wouldn't matter what we thought of them as fight would be to the death anyway.
I'm from the 'no such thing as just following orders' school of thought.
I came into this topic expecting a discussion on the moral implications of supersonic flight. I am disappoint.
So you think Yeager should have in effect committed suicide to preserve the secret that America was response for the mass murder of millions of innocent, defenseless people?
Kind of hard to hide your involvement after massive, planet-wide nuclear attack.
The Yanks pulled it off, Turtledove logic is very forgiving.
JSmith
Banned
Can anyone make the argument that the Race was attempting genocide in the same way that the Nazis were? If so what stopped the Race form doing it?
I think it was a bad portrait of youth counter-culture. But yes, war with Race was different than Cold war.
I pointed out coordinated attack against colonisation fleet by all 3 powers would be a good option, since it would actually achieve something (unlike Warren's which only made a small dent) and with united nuclear powers Atvar would have to consider his options carefully. He could opt for limited retaliation agaisnt US because it was only US who was behind the attack and other two powers were not against it and had no interest in defending US. In my scenario all three powers would be deep in it and would actually have an interest to stand together.
Of course atvar could get royally (or imperially?) pissed, decided humans can't be trusted no matter what and pull off the planet and glass it over, getting rid of humanity for ever.
But in this case potential gain (destruction of colonisation fleet and keeping ballance of power as was) would be worth the risk of destruction of humanity. Warren risked same thing for limited gain.
Indeed.
They thought they could win initially, and eventually decided that gaining most of the Earth was better than none of it.
By Homeward Bound, they'd decided that humanity was just too dangerous to be worth the risk, only the appearance of the FTL ships convinced them not to, as they realised they were now facing MAD.
The Yanks pulled it off, Turtledove logic is very forgiving.
Yanks pulled off a limited strike executed in such manner that there was no clear indication it was them. It could have just as easily been other two powers.
However massive attack involving hundreds if not thousands of missiles (some launched from home territories of powers) and a lot of killer satellites would clearly indicate all 3 powers were behind it.
Well, it's not really comparable if they were happy to give themselves away.
The choice between innocent sentient beings and Nazis is pretty damn clear-cut indeed. If Nazis are representative of our species then be thankful for extinction.
Of course, then there's the possibility of future redemption when the Nazi bastards meet the inevitable fate of individual beings.
On the gripping hand there's the possibility of future redemption of the Race when the slaving invaders finally die...
'Slaving invaders' are not innocent beings, they're just as bad as the Nazi's, you know, the slaving invaders?
They aren't in the Worldwarverse, but even if they were, no.
Nazism isn't a genetic trait, it's a political ideology. Humans can adopt it, but the majority can and will reject it.
