Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

So I mentioned before that I didn't think that General Jordan or anyone else could help the austrians fast enough to affect the 1866 war. Sedowa was in early July. I don't want to derail This Thread so I'm going to link to let others look at this one of two good discussion threads on that battle and then anyone can start their own Thread about it to discuss it. ( here is the other just in case. The third when you search for 1866 is more of a first timeline, but it does have some interesting points.)

Confederates will be fleeing left and right. I believe it is possible, if not plausible, that a Confederate Leader could have enough impact on Austria, given that they just needed anyone who is more confident than the general there, during a span of 10 to 12 months that they could at least cause the Army to fight the Prussians to a draw, both were very poorly equipped and hungry and it sounds like there could have easily just been a status quo antibellum which allows the Franco-Prussian war to be delayed and which also allows for other changes in Europe that Red may prefer.

So, Red, you have several good ways to go but of course you don't need to worry about that now.
 
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My understanding is that AL was a sop which Bismarck threw to his opponent who were angry about him not taking more land from Austria (he was trying to limit the amoutn of Catholics in the new German Empire, as he wanted it Protestant and Prussian). Perhaps here, he's persuaded to - maybe not go for Gossendeutschland - but take more land from Austria and so doesn't feel the need to take as much from France in order to quiet his detractors.

Though, likely this is a less anti-Catholic Bismarck and so this will either mitigate or butterfly the Kulturkapf.
The problem with that would be a logical connection resulting from the POV.

The easy route would be for France to still lose convincingly- hello Republic, hello German unification- but do better than in our timeline. Probably this could be accomplished by avoiding the armies being bottled up in the forts.

That way A-L doesn’t have to be handed over as Bismarck probably feels it’s not worth reopening the war, and even better, there’s no Paris Commune so we can get a Third Republic with a stronger left. Even better still, that will mean that the monarchists are weakened by comparison as well, so this timeline’s alternatehistory dot com will have fewer weird fetishists for a Bourbon restoration.
Yes, that does seem like the most convincing possibility. I really wish to butterfly the Commune, because it really frightened many Americans who were not seeing this "communism" thing with good eyes, and in that regard it helped to weaken Reconstruction and entrench people in their conservatism. It was, obviously, not the only reason but every little bit of help, eh?

We can easily have France do less badly in the war of 1870. I mentioned way upthread that I think it was Thomas Jordan who fought in the Cuban revolution and did well with very limited resources after having fought for the CSA, and so would probably be able to do even better in France. (It's probably good also, because you don't want to have them all look like buffooms afterward, it could feel cartoon-y. So he's one who can fight and live decently.) He would be sent into exile in Europe, but probably too late to have an impact on Austria's war against Prussia. So he helps the French instead.

Britain VS America feels a little… cliche. Almost? I mean, it's been done enough time. Britain, France, and Austria plus the Ottomans might be interesting vs. Germany and Russia.

What if the 1878 war between Russia and the Ottomans breaks out into a general European war for a few years. They might be so weak that they can't pull off the Congress of Berlin for a few years. it would also let Belgium be clbbered as Germany and France are on opposite sides and go through it, thereby preventing the Congo from falling into Leopold's hands. If the south germans don't join the german confederation, because germany does poorly in the frank oppression war comma it could get Germany mad at France, Austria align with france because they are worried about Prussian hegemony, Russia enters on the side of Germany, Britain on the side of France to oppose Russia and keep them from getting Constantinople, maybe italy on the side of Germany to oppose Austria also. Crimea II but with a stronger Germany helping Russia.

Granted comma it's too early for america to enter comma but america can enter the next time because there would be bad blood from this.
That's an intriguing possibility.

I just don't find a repeat of OTL WW1 very interesting, and given that a war with Britain would mean an actual land war in North America I find that possibility the most interesting.

That's why they stayed neutral at first since Italy was basically solely relying on the British for coal. They ended up siding with them because the Entente basically promised just about every claim they had in regards to Italian irredentism. Italian politics also favored the Adriatic claims more then the French ones.
So, following the logic of events Italy is very, very likely to side with whatever side is against Austria.

Speaking of which, what areas would you say were the most devastated in this TL’s American Civil War in terms of economic damage or loss of population similar to how Belarus and Poland were the countries which lost the largest proportion of their population during the Second World War?
The Mississippi Valley, Northern Alabama, most of South Carolina and Georgia are probably the areas that will bear the brunt of civilian casualties and feel the famine most keenly.

Besides, pitting the Third French Republic against America is hard, as IOTL among European countries, the Third Republic was perhaps closest to a friend to America, and it had no design and ambitions towards American sphere of influence (unlike many other powers including Germany).

On top of that, in terms of story/plot for readers and students of history, America going to war against the only significant republic & democracy in Europe (you know, neither Britain nor Germany were democracies even by 1800s standards) is not so inspiring, quite demoralizing actually.
I guess I hadn't considered that angle. It would indeed be... weird, for the TL to have the US ally with despotic tyrannies against the two most democratic countries.

Booker T Washington is around but I doubt seriously that W. E. B. Du Bois can be born as IOTL. He would have to be born in what would be a VERY different ATL here (in 1868).
I've mentioned Du Bois already, it being implied that he's a respect historian. For example, a work of his named History of the Second American Revolution is described as a landmark book. Given that he was born in the North I don't think it's unrealistic - I'm not one of those "no one after the POD is born!" extremists.

Greenbacks were fiat money - they were only credible on the word of the government and were not guaranteed a redemption for gold and silver. Due to the absence of a central bank to borrow cash and the limited specie within the top banks in Boston, Philadelphia and New York (if the banks kept lending to the Federal government, there would not be not enough money which could have caused a financial crisis in the midst of a civil war), the authorities in Washington reluctantly accepted that they needed a national fiat money and thus the greenbacks were born. Naturally, government creditors hated the thing and some bankers could never trust Congress with the power to expand and inflate the money supply.

It should be remembered that sustained inflation is a modern phenomenon. Inflation pre-1950s were more like episodes - usually war-related - and offset by episodes of deflation. Inflation was viewed as good for Western men because they were largely farmers, who were net-debtors. Technically speaking, inflation is good for debtors as the real value of the interest payments decline (supposing fixed rates), thus there is a transfer of wealth from creditor to debtor. During deflation, wealth is transferred from the debtor to the creditor as the interest payments become more onerous - the value of money being paid is higher than it was when the agreement was said.

During the Panic of 1873, monetary policy came to attention. The "Crime of 1873" had already happened and farms and factories were calling for an injection in money supply (greenbacks) in order to stimulate the economy. Grant vetoed the "Inflation Bill" to the surprise of many, but in a compromise, greenbacks were permitted to remain in circulation rather than be retired. However, silver came into fore again. In 1876, George M. Weston, writing for the Republican Boston Globe, popularized the idea that silver, not greenbacks, could provide a well-needed inflationary boost to the economy. Silver was “hard money" and the skyrocketing production meant that its increased supply promised inflation without the disgrace of being fiat money, which was why it was pushed hard up until the 1890s.

Nah, Grant and his contemporary generals strongly resented France for its involvement in Mexico. When Sheridan left to observe the war on the Prussian side, both he and Grant were hoping that the French would get their teeth kicked in.

That said, a better outcome for France is not out of question. The Germans would have had difficulty in penetrating into the French interior had the Army of Châlons or Army of the Rhine survived (preferably both). Although the French were inferior with respect to officer material, artillery equipment and infantry tactics, Châlons was the perfect place from which to execute a fighting retreat into the Paris fortifications, or across to the left bank of the Loire, where a relief army for Paris could be constituted as a dagger in Moltke’s flank. Indeed, the Prussians gave the French a window of opportunity to flee. Karl von Steinmetz, commander of the First Army and 74 years old, was hungry for glory, scornful of Moltke and well past his prime, some of his peers even thought him senile. Steinmetz also consistently blundered into very costly frontal attacks, both against the Austrians and the French, until he was finally relieved.

In the opening offensive, Steinmetz maneuvered his army, which was only meant to play a supporting role, in front of the Second Army, which was meant to be Motlke’s fist. Although the Prussians managed to drive the French back, there was plenty of time for the French to escape the closing maws. Hell, even at Mars-la-Tour, Moltke overestimated the French retreat speed and thus only one corps was actually present on the French line of retreat, facing the entire Army of the Rhine. Unfortunately, French army officers seemed to be sort of McClellan-caricatures and kinda sat there and let Moltke have his win.
I thought the US government had promised to eventually redeem greenbacks after the war, and that's why they included that part about the "public debt" in the 14th amendment. Or am I just getting mixed up with bonds and other forms of common debt?

We're actually allowed to argue about A-L without buying into nineteenth century blood-and-soil nationalism.
Well, at least Vous n'aurez pas l'Alsace et la Lorraine is kind of catchy to me.

So I mentioned before that I didn't think that General Jordan or anyone else could help the austrians fast enough to affect the 1866 war. Sedowa was in early July. I don't want to derail This Thread so I'm going to link to let others look at this one of two good discussion threads on that battle and then anyone can start their own Thread about it to discuss it. ( here is the other just in case. The third when you search for 1866 is more of a first timeline, but it does have some interesting points.)

Confederates will be fleeing left and right. I believe it is possible, if not plausible, that a Confederate Leader could have enough impact on Austria, given that they just needed anyone who is more confident than the general there, during a span of 10 to 12 months that they could at least cause the Army to fight the Prussians to a draw, both were very poorly equipped and hungry and it sounds like there could have easily just been a status quo antibellum which allows the Franco-Prussian war to be delayed and which also allows for other changes in Europe that Red may prefer.

So, Red, you have several good ways to go but of course you don't need to worry about that now.
The war with Austria is indeed a possibility I feel we're sleeping on. But yes, you're right, we don't have to worry about that for now.
 
I thought the US government had promised to eventually redeem greenbacks after the war, and that's why they included that part about the "public debt" in the 14th amendment. Or am I just getting mixed up with bonds and other forms of common debt?
Well yes, greenbacks were meant to be a temporary measure; they would be redeemed for gold or converted into bonds and cancelled as soon as the war ended in theory. However, during the war, greenbacks were fiat money because the government suspended convertibility in wartime. Hence, the value of greenbacks to gold coins was not 1:1 and frequently fluctuated when a major battle occurred.

On the 14th Amendment, Section 4: “The validity of the public debt of the United States...shall not be questioned.” - this guaranteed the U.S. govt would service its debt. The political debate is more on what to pay the national debt with. Congress did not always take the trouble to explicitly state in what form of currency the interest and principal of the loan would be payable. In most cases during the war, it was clearly stated that interest payments should be payable in specie, not greenback, but often repayment of the principal was not spelled out. This lack of specificity came back to haunt the Treasury after the war. Some argued that the principal should be paid in greenbacks, which would be advantageous to the govt as it would be paying in depreciated currency ($1 greenback = $0.71 in gold).

This is one of the contributors for the debates on the greenback. This would not be an issue if the Treasury could so quickly retire the greenbacks or establish them back to 1:1 with gold. However, a regional difference in the availability of money and an economic downturn made it unpopular and politically divisive. At least, that is my understanding.
 
Yes, that does seem like the most convincing possibility. I really wish to butterfly the Commune, because it really frightened many Americans who were not seeing this "communism" thing with good eyes, and in that regard it helped to weaken Reconstruction and entrench people in their conservatism. It was, obviously, not the only reason but every little bit of help, eh?
On that note, this video is an interesting one on the Paris Commune and how it was a surprisingly moderate entity (they literally negotiated a loan with the banks to help finance their economic plans instead of storming the whole thing to confiscate its wealth) despite the revolutionary myth that would be built around it.
 

iddt3

Donor
On that note, this video is an interesting one on the Paris Commune and how it was a surprisingly moderate entity (they literally negotiated a loan with the banks to help finance their economic plans instead of storming the whole thing to confiscate its wealth) despite the revolutionary myth that would be built around it.
I mean that's the problem in a nutshell - conservatives will be spooked by any meaningful change and vilify it, so revolutionaries need to simultaneously go all in *and* somehow bring the moderates with them. Look at the Hungarian Revolution by comparison, thanks to nationalism, the center and the left were able to stay aligned. Of course, they blew *that* by alienating all the minorities, so...
 
Important announcement: I have successfully finished my college major and obtained my title as a lawyer. My final test, sort-of the equivalent of the bar exam, was last Thursday. The initial results that same day said I had passed. Then they said there was a mistake and we all had to wait until today. But finally, it's official - I have graduated, thus closing a phase of my life and opening the door to a new one. It's almost funny... I started this timeline just before entering college, and I graduate college as I am about to finish it and at last begin a new chapter by delivering on the promised Reconstruction. It feels fitting, in a way.

I make this announcement, because during those years this TL was also an important part of my life - the work I phantasized about during boring classes, that I researched during breaks, that I was kept from during exams, and more than anything a source of relaxation and happiness. Happiness, not only for writing it, but because of all of you, who've showed your appreciation to a little project of mine, brigthening my days with discussion and engagement. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
 
Important announcement: I have successfully finished my college major and obtained my title as a lawyer. My final test, sort-of the equivalent of the bar exam, was last Thursday. The initial results that same day said I had passed. Then they said there was a mistake and we all had to wait until today. But finally, it's official - I have graduated, thus closing a phase of my life and opening the door to a new one. It's almost funny... I started this timeline just before entering college, and I graduate college as I am about to finish it and at last begin a new chapter by delivering on the promised Reconstruction. It feels fitting, in a way.

I make this announcement, because during those years this TL was also an important part of my life - the work I phantasized about during boring classes, that I researched during breaks, that I was kept from during exams, and more than anything a source of relaxation and happiness. Happiness, not only for writing it, but because of all of you, who've showed your appreciation to a little project of mine, brigthening my days with discussion and engagement. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Congratulations. :)
 
Important announcement: I have successfully finished my college major and obtained my title as a lawyer. My final test, sort-of the equivalent of the bar exam, was last Thursday. The initial results that same day said I had passed. Then they said there was a mistake and we all had to wait until today. But finally, it's official - I have graduated, thus closing a phase of my life and opening the door to a new one. It's almost funny... I started this timeline just before entering college, and I graduate college as I am about to finish it and at last begin a new chapter by delivering on the promised Reconstruction. It feels fitting, in a way.

I make this announcement, because during those years this TL was also an important part of my life - the work I phantasized about during boring classes, that I researched during breaks, that I was kept from during exams, and more than anything a source of relaxation and happiness. Happiness, not only for writing it, but because of all of you, who've showed your appreciation to a little project of mine, brigthening my days with discussion and engagement. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Congratulations and welcome to the Bar.
 
Important announcement: I have successfully finished my college major and obtained my title as a lawyer. My final test, sort-of the equivalent of the bar exam, was last Thursday. The initial results that same day said I had passed. Then they said there was a mistake and we all had to wait until today. But finally, it's official - I have graduated, thus closing a phase of my life and opening the door to a new one. It's almost funny... I started this timeline just before entering college, and I graduate college as I am about to finish it and at last begin a new chapter by delivering on the promised Reconstruction. It feels fitting, in a way.

I make this announcement, because during those years this TL was also an important part of my life - the work I phantasized about during boring classes, that I researched during breaks, that I was kept from during exams, and more than anything a source of relaxation and happiness. Happiness, not only for writing it, but because of all of you, who've showed your appreciation to a little project of mine, brigthening my days with discussion and engagement. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
¡Congratulations!
 
Important announcement: I have successfully finished my college major and obtained my title as a lawyer. My final test, sort-of the equivalent of the bar exam, was last Thursday. The initial results that same day said I had passed. Then they said there was a mistake and we all had to wait until today. But finally, it's official - I have graduated, thus closing a phase of my life and opening the door to a new one. It's almost funny... I started this timeline just before entering college, and I graduate college as I am about to finish it and at last begin a new chapter by delivering on the promised Reconstruction. It feels fitting, in a way.

I make this announcement, because during those years this TL was also an important part of my life - the work I phantasized about during boring classes, that I researched during breaks, that I was kept from during exams, and more than anything a source of relaxation and happiness. Happiness, not only for writing it, but because of all of you, who've showed your appreciation to a little project of mine, brigthening my days with discussion and engagement. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Congratulations! I hope to start university next year and plan on becoming a lawyer myself.
 
Important announcement: I have successfully finished my college major and obtained my title as a lawyer. My final test, sort-of the equivalent of the bar exam, was last Thursday. The initial results that same day said I had passed. Then they said there was a mistake and we all had to wait until today. But finally, it's official - I have graduated, thus closing a phase of my life and opening the door to a new one. It's almost funny... I started this timeline just before entering college, and I graduate college as I am about to finish it and at last begin a new chapter by delivering on the promised Reconstruction. It feels fitting, in a way.

I make this announcement, because during those years this TL was also an important part of my life - the work I phantasized about during boring classes, that I researched during breaks, that I was kept from during exams, and more than anything a source of relaxation and happiness. Happiness, not only for writing it, but because of all of you, who've showed your appreciation to a little project of mine, brigthening my days with discussion and engagement. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Many congratulations!!
 
Important announcement: I have successfully finished my college major and obtained my title as a lawyer. My final test, sort-of the equivalent of the bar exam, was last Thursday. The initial results that same day said I had passed. Then they said there was a mistake and we all had to wait until today. But finally, it's official - I have graduated, thus closing a phase of my life and opening the door to a new one. It's almost funny... I started this timeline just before entering college, and I graduate college as I am about to finish it and at last begin a new chapter by delivering on the promised Reconstruction. It feels fitting, in a way.

I make this announcement, because during those years this TL was also an important part of my life - the work I phantasized about during boring classes, that I researched during breaks, that I was kept from during exams, and more than anything a source of relaxation and happiness. Happiness, not only for writing it, but because of all of you, who've showed your appreciation to a little project of mine, brigthening my days with discussion and engagement. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Congratulations, Red! While I am a physicist/electronic engineer by study (and programmer by career), I know that law is a really tough career to work with. The fact that you were able to finish the career and join the bar while writing high quality stories such as this one says a lot about your working skills. Keep it up!
 
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