Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

The easy route would be for France to still lose convincingly- hello Republic, hello German unification- but do better than in our timeline. Probably this could be accomplished by avoiding the armies being bottled up in the forts.

That way A-L doesn’t have to be handed over as Bismarck probably feels it’s not worth reopening the war, and even better, there’s no Paris Commune so we can get a Third Republic with a stronger left. Even better still, that will mean that the monarchists are weakened by comparison as well, so this timeline’s alternatehistory dot com will have fewer weird fetishists for a Bourbon restoration.
 
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We can easily have France do less badly in the war of 1870. I mentioned way upthread that I think it was Thomas Jordan who fought in the Cuban revolution and did well with very limited resources after having fought for the CSA, and so would probably be able to do even better in France. (It's probably good also, because you don't want to have them all look like buffooms afterward, it could feel cartoon-y. So he's one who can fight and live decently.) He would be sent into exile in Europe, but probably too late to have an impact on Austria's war against Prussia. So he helps the French instead.

Britain VS America feels a little… cliche. Almost? I mean, it's been done enough time. Britain, France, and Austria plus the Ottomans might be interesting vs. Germany and Russia.

What if the 1878 war between Russia and the Ottomans breaks out into a general European war for a few years. They might be so weak that they can't pull off the Congress of Berlin for a few years. it would also let Belgium be clbbered as Germany and France are on opposite sides and go through it, thereby preventing the Congo from falling into Leopold's hands. If the south germans don't join the german confederation, because germany does poorly in the frank oppression war comma it could get Germany mad at France, Austria align with france because they are worried about Prussian hegemony, Russia enters on the side of Germany, Britain on the side of France to oppose Russia and keep them from getting Constantinople, maybe italy on the side of Germany to oppose Austria also. Crimea II but with a stronger Germany helping Russia.

Granted comma it's too early for america to enter comma but america can enter the next time because there would be bad blood from this.
 
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I'm not sure. Didn't Italy side against Germany because they were afraid the UK would block their trade?
That's why they stayed neutral at first since Italy was basically solely relying on the British for coal. They ended up siding with them because the Entente basically promised just about every claim they had in regards to Italian irredentism. Italian politics also favored the Adriatic claims more then the French ones.
 
Speaking of which, what areas would you say were the most devastated in this TL’s American Civil War in terms of economic damage or loss of population similar to how Belarus and Poland were the countries which lost the largest proportion of their population during the Second World War?
 
Besides, pitting the Third French Republic against America is hard, as IOTL among European countries, the Third Republic was perhaps closest to a friend to America, and it had no design and ambitions towards American sphere of influence (unlike many other powers including Germany).

On top of that, in terms of story/plot for readers and students of history, America going to war against the only significant republic & democracy in Europe (you know, neither Britain nor Germany were democracies even by 1800s standards) is not so inspiring, quite demoralizing actually.
 
Unifying Germany without the war would be difficult, particularly considering that Austria considered itself the protector of the southern German states. You'd need some sort of similar event that causes them to join forces with Prussia and the Northern German Federation. Well, that or a repetition of the 1848 Revolutions, but with more success in establishing a German state.
Admittedly, a wet dream TL would be combining this TL with a more successful 1848 resulting in the Second French Republic and the Italian Republic (Mazzini's Roman Republic & Florence & Lombardy & Republic of San Marco) - and both TTL France and Italy would be pro-Union. Kinda similar to an ongoing Henry Clay TL but without Dictatorship France and Peronist America.

Oh, let's not give Nappy III that much credit. Man was nowhere near as capable as Palpy.
I mean, his maneuverings in 1848-1851 is Palpatine-sque. But yeah, he gone off the rail towards the end of his reign., but so was Palpatine. And after reading a few things about De Cavaignac, I am convinced that he and his alternate sucessors would have achieved 90% of Nappy's domestic successes with destroying France's position abroad had he won.
 
I wonder if men like Booker T Washington and W E B Du Bois would still rise to prominence if Jim Crow is avoided in the South.
Booker T Washington is around but I doubt seriously that W. E. B. Du Bois can be born as IOTL. He would have to be born in what would be a VERY different ATL here (in 1868).
 
Besides, pitting the Third French Republic against America is hard, as IOTL among European countries, the Third Republic was perhaps closest to a friend to America, and it had no design and ambitions towards American sphere of influence (unlike many other powers including Germany).

On top of that, in terms of story/plot for readers and students of history, America going to war against the only significant republic & democracy in Europe (you know, neither Britain (1) nor Germany were democracies even by 1800s standards) is not so inspiring, quite demoralizing actually.
1) Agree to disagree. Certainly Britain became a true blue functioning democracy AFTER the adoption of the Great Reform Act of 1867 [its weak sister the "Great" Reform Act of 1866 (and even the Great Reform Act of 1832) was considered insufficient by the unlanded Commoners]. This made the Liberals a true political powerhouse (plus the ultimate introduction of the Labor/Socialist Party, once considered not only unthinkable but even illegal once upon a time) in Britain.

Even allowing for possible reactionary responses by the British aristocracy ITTL, with the passage of the US 15th Amendment in 1870 the political forces in Great Britain in favor of Universal Adult Male Suffrage would have become overwhelming. I honestly believe this to be so, as the lack of a language barrier between the US and the British Empire would mean far more open communications between working classes of the two nations. Just imagine the embarrassment inside the UK IF American Black Males had the Vote and White British working classes did NOT!🤔

Granted, the Great Reform Act of 1832 went a long way towards enfranchising the middle class, but neither it nor the Reform Act of 1866 gave the British working class what they wanted. But assuming everything else (domestically/politically) inside Great Britain remains on schedule (including British politics bending over backwards IOTL to make amends with the Union starting from Lee's surrender to WWI), Great Britain will be seen as strong a democracy as (ITTL) the US and the French Third Republic. :)
 
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I do remember that Western men supported inflation, as in, the printing of greenbacks. But the idea is somewhat bizarre-sounding to us modern people, where inflation is almost universally seen as something bad. So, if I'm understanding correctly, since the idea of fiat money was not there yet (nor would it be until Nixon) they believed money had to be backed by something so they turned to silver, because it was more abundant.
Greenbacks were fiat money - they were only credible on the word of the government and were not guaranteed a redemption for gold and silver. Due to the absence of a central bank to borrow cash and the limited specie within the top banks in Boston, Philadelphia and New York (if the banks kept lending to the Federal government, there would not be not enough money which could have caused a financial crisis in the midst of a civil war), the authorities in Washington reluctantly accepted that they needed a national fiat money and thus the greenbacks were born. Naturally, government creditors hated the thing and some bankers could never trust Congress with the power to expand and inflate the money supply.

It should be remembered that sustained inflation is a modern phenomenon. Inflation pre-1950s were more like episodes - usually war-related - and offset by episodes of deflation. Inflation was viewed as good for Western men because they were largely farmers, who were net-debtors. Technically speaking, inflation is good for debtors as the real value of the interest payments decline (supposing fixed rates), thus there is a transfer of wealth from creditor to debtor. During deflation, wealth is transferred from the debtor to the creditor as the interest payments become more onerous - the value of money being paid is higher than it was when the agreement was said.

During the Panic of 1873, monetary policy came to attention. The "Crime of 1873" had already happened and farms and factories were calling for an injection in money supply (greenbacks) in order to stimulate the economy. Grant vetoed the "Inflation Bill" to the surprise of many, but in a compromise, greenbacks were permitted to remain in circulation rather than be retired. However, silver came into fore again. In 1876, George M. Weston, writing for the Republican Boston Globe, popularized the idea that silver, not greenbacks, could provide a well-needed inflationary boost to the economy. Silver was “hard money" and the skyrocketing production meant that its increased supply promised inflation without the disgrace of being fiat money, which was why it was pushed hard up until the 1890s.
Napoleon III getting kicked out internally and a French Third Republic that's set up with less desperation could allow for more future stability. THere's also room for a Germany that has less of an authoritarian origin, softening them as well perhaps? Could America perhaps come in as a mediator? In OTL, Grant was president, and given the trajectory, he may well be ITL as well, I could see him doing pretty well as a mediator in such a situation.
Nah, Grant and his contemporary generals strongly resented France for its involvement in Mexico. When Sheridan left to observe the war on the Prussian side, both he and Grant were hoping that the French would get their teeth kicked in.

That said, a better outcome for France is not out of question. The Germans would have had difficulty in penetrating into the French interior had the Army of Châlons or Army of the Rhine survived (preferably both). Although the French were inferior with respect to officer material, artillery equipment and infantry tactics, Châlons was the perfect place from which to execute a fighting retreat into the Paris fortifications, or across to the left bank of the Loire, where a relief army for Paris could be constituted as a dagger in Moltke’s flank. Indeed, the Prussians gave the French a window of opportunity to flee. Karl von Steinmetz, commander of the First Army and 74 years old, was hungry for glory, scornful of Moltke and well past his prime, some of his peers even thought him senile. Steinmetz also consistently blundered into very costly frontal attacks, both against the Austrians and the French, until he was finally relieved.

In the opening offensive, Steinmetz maneuvered his army, which was only meant to play a supporting role, in front of the Second Army, which was meant to be Motlke’s fist. Although the Prussians managed to drive the French back, there was plenty of time for the French to escape the closing maws. Hell, even at Mars-la-Tour, Moltke overestimated the French retreat speed and thus only one corps was actually present on the French line of retreat, facing the entire Army of the Rhine. Unfortunately, French army officers seemed to be sort of McClellan-caricatures and kinda sat there and let Moltke have his win.
 
Admittedly, a wet dream TL would be combining this TL with a more successful 1848 resulting in the Second French Republic and the Italian Republic (Mazzini's Roman Republic & Florence & Lombardy & Republic of San Marco) - and both TTL France and Italy would be pro-Union. Kinda similar to an ongoing Henry Clay TL but without Dictatorship France and Peronist America.
The problem is that a successful 1848 might actually delay the Civil War and/or weaken the Union cause. Many of the 48ers that failed in Germany and Italy fled to America, where they strengthened the Abolitionist movement and strongly supported the Union cause when war broke out, many identifying the Southern planters with the aristocrats they had fought back in Europe. Apparently a tenth of the Union army was German by the end of the war!
 
The easiest way to avoid that is Prussia not annexing Alsace-Lorraine if it wins.
Easier said than done. Bismark doesn't actually Run Prussia at this point (or ever), and he barely managed to stop more annexations in general. The Prussian leadership wanted something. The French just decided to decide it was blood feud worthy for some baffling reason. It wasn't even French Land.

Something where the French invade Germany and all the major battles happen inside Germany might prevent it, but given how terribly France got trounced, the terms they got in 1871 weren't that bad.
 
Easier said than done. Bismark doesn't actually Run Prussia at this point (or ever), and he barely managed to stop more annexations in general. The Prussian leadership wanted something. The French just decided to decide it was blood feud worthy for some baffling reason. It wasn't even French Land.

Something where the French invade Germany and all the major battles happen inside Germany might prevent it, but given how terribly France got trounced, the terms they got in 1871 weren't that bad.

It had been part of France for almost 200 years, even though it wasn't ethnically French. Presumably they thought that ought to count for something.
 
It had been part of France for almost 200 years, even though it wasn't ethnically French. Presumably they thought that ought to count for something.
And it was German for hundreds of years longer. The French psyched themselves up into a foaming mouth rage over Alsace-Lorraine. I mean, you read some of the rhetoric about it and it's kind of mind-boggling.
 
And it was German for hundreds of years longer. The French psyched themselves up into a foaming mouth rage over Alsace-Lorraine. I mean, you read some of the rhetoric about it and it's kind of mind-boggling.
Also wasn't A-L at the time majority German?
It was but they preferred staying with France, especially once the Germans began suppressing the local dialect and by the end of WWI, the revanchists were smart in not demading it because they realized it wasn't worth it when the local Germans from AL didn't want them.
 
We're actually allowed to argue about A-L without buying into nineteenth century blood-and-soil nationalism.
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