They Call it Civilization!
- Thread starter Rex Britanniae
- Start date
Sirdaria, Cairo, Egypt
August 3, 1896
Horatio Herbert Kitchener was torn. Just moments ago, an aide had burst in, and as he read the letter the young man had given him, he pondered
his future, and that of the British Empire. The letter itself, penned in a stunningly immaculate script, was the work of Lord Salisbury, the Prime Minister.
Dear Sir Kitchener, it read, how do you do? Let me open by saying that I am aware of your impressive work in leading our forces and those of Egypt against the Sudanese radicals so successfully. It is commendable indeed. I am certain I don’t need to remind you of the horrid events of years past, the death of the great General, Charles Gordon. That bit deep. Charles had been a good friend, and an excellent soldier. He also knew that it could not have been easy for Salisbury to bring that up, as government mismanagement had played a huge part in his death.
In recognition of that, it continued, I would like to request your services in the conflict recently entered into by the British Empire. I needn’t go over the details, as I am sure that you have already heard them. With those in mind, I would ask you to take this proposal into serious consideration. You would be placed in charge of the British Army forces in Guyana, and promoted to the rank of Lieutenant-General upon your arrival as a result. I reach across the Empire for talent because, between you and I, I believe that this war will take most everything we have. Many in this Parliament assert that the war will not last more than a few months, weeks even! Yet they know not the scope of resources the United States can bring to bear. These are nearly limitless, and no one, not even the Americans themselves, know their capacity.
Why, therefore, do I ask that we resist? Because we are the British. I firmly believe that we make up the greatest nation on the face of this Earth, and that despite the greater manpower of America, they will lose heart if they do not quickly gain ground, and you, being one of the greatest military minds of our day, are the man who we need to keep them from gaining that ground. I will not force you to accept. I merely ask that you truly consider it, as your choice, yea or nay, may decide the fate of this war. Good luck and Godspeed. Sincerely, Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury.
Kitchener read the well-worded letter another two times before he set it down. "I need some air," he said to himself. On that note, he stood up, and departed the building for a leisurely stroll along the Nile. Though it did not compare to Britain in his eyes, Kitchener had become accustomed to Egypt. After all, he had been here for years. As Sirdar, the British commander of the Anglo-Egyptian force that served as Egypt’s Army, he resided in a mansion, aptly named the Sirdaria. It was certainly fancier than France, Palestine, Ireland, or England, the four other places he had lived in his lifetime. After all, it was located on the Zamalek, an island in the Nile which ran through Cairo. The Zamalek was as such because it was the residence of the wealthiest people in Cairo, which was owed to its beauty. It included the Egyptian Opera House (the performances put on there were quite good), a sporting club, and a Grand Garden of exotic plants, taken from around the world. That was just the beginning.
As Kitchener emerged onto the streets, he was greeted by a bright, sunny day, which seemed to be the only type of weather the Egyptians experienced. He had been walking along the water for what could not have been more than a few minutes, when he was joined by another man, one with whom he had frequently walked and talked. The wealthy Egyptian went by the name Youssef Khalid. Khalid, an incredibly rich man who owned a boating company on the Nile, lived in the house right next to the Sirdaria. He was nearing 70 years of age, but was as sharp as a man could be. Yet there was one curious habit of his, which annoyed Kitchener to no end; he spoke in complex anecdotes, analogies, and euphemisms.
"Ah, if it isn’t Mr. Khalid. What brings you out here on this fine day?" opened Kitchener.
"I could ask you the same thing," he replied, evading the question as he often did.
"You never miss a beat, eh?" Without waiting for a response, he continued, "If you must know, I am considering a move to the Americas. I was not sure of exactly which course to take, so I took a walk instead." Normally he wouldn’t have revealed such information, yet he trusted Khalid. That was odd, because Khalid was a known Egyptian Patriot, who supported independence. The situation grew even stranger, because the government knew he was as much, yet they did nothing. The reason he was so trusted was not because he was a pacifist, for he wasn’t, nor was it that he was a coward. Yet if an Egyptian rebellion arose (something Kitchener knew was unlikely), Khalid would not have supported it. He was the shrewdest and cleverest investor the Sirdar had ever known.
"Hm, the clouds of war, I sense, growing on the horizon. This will not be a short conflict, nor will it be an easy one."
"Oh, and why is that, oh sage?!" Kitchener asked patronizingly.
"A good magician never reveals his secrets."
Unhappy with the answer, though not expecting anything more specific, Kitchener maneuvered around it. "Well, who do you see wining this war?"
Khalid’s countenance, formerly aglow, darkened. "That, I can not say for sure. A wise man can travel the road of destiny and see what lies before him in the foggy distance, yet no one knows what lies beyond the horizon."
"And what does a foolish man do?" Kitchener kept him going because he enjoyed his explanations, even if they weren’t always easy to understand.
"A foolish man? He casts not a glance at the horizon, rather he stares at his feet as he walks, observing the pock-marked road below."
"Hm. Yet if their should be a hole in the road before him, how would the wise man see it?"
Khalid looked over at him. "Peripheral vision," he returned, turning the analogy into a joke. The two let loose a hearty laugh, and then walked in silence for the next few minutes.
When they at last returned to the conversation, it was Kitchener who broke the ice. "What would you recommend when it comes to the matter I have presented to you, sir? Would you go, or stay?"
"Ah, you present a challenge." He thought for a moment, and then continued. "Sirdar, if a man spends his lifetime building a grand wall, what good does it do him to stop when only three-quarters complete to go build another wall?" That was surprisingly simple. The wall he referred to must have been the war against the Mahdists of the Sudan. Come to think of it, he had been planning a new campaign into the Sudan, one which looked to be decisive, yet there was no way Khalid could have known that. Could he have?, pondered Kitchener.
"Understood, Mr. Khalid. But enough about me, let us talk about you. How is the business going?" he asked, already knowing the answer. The business was always good.
"The business is always good," he stated in a manner so alike what Kitchener had envisioned that he did a double-take, needing to make sure the sly, old man wasn’t reading his mind. Despite that action, he still wasn’t fully certain. You could never know with that coot.
"I’ve bought even more shares in the Suez Canal Company, and they are paying off quite nicely."
"Smart move. I own some shares myself, yet you probably own half of the company by now!" That, of course, was an exaggeration, yet Khalid did own a large number of shares.
"Ah, now you have me figured out." They were already on their way back by this point, and were nearing their respective homes when one of the ships owned by Khalid’s company passed by. It was not particularly large, yet it was a beautiful vessel.
"Isn’t she lovely? Could any thing on this earth match her beauty?" he asked admiringly, giving Kitchener the impression that he would not accept anything short of an emphatic "yes". The man sure did love his boats. Luckily, the British Commander didn’t need to answer as such, for just moments later, and even larger, if slightly less attractive boat owned by the military, and therefore under his control, passed by.
"You were saying?" said Horatio with a dastardly grin.
"You win this round." It seemed as if he was conceding something great. After another five minutes of walking, they reached their respective residences. "Well, Sirdar, it has been a pleasure. This conversation of ours was enlightening, to say the least. Good day, Sir Kitchener."
"Good day, Mr. Khalid." Englightening, he thought. Did I reveal too much? Then he stopped worrying. With anyone else, that would be sure, but I don’t believe there is a thing I could have told that man he wouldn’t have known already, and in greater detail. Laughing at the thought, he re-entered the Sirdaria, re-energized. After ordering some afternoon tea, he returned to his room and settled in to write a response letter.
He always felt such energy after a walk. The water of the Nile was beautiful at this time of day, and it took his mind off of work and the war.
Or in his case, just work, as his work was the war– a war anyway. Words then flowed from his pen.
Dear Lord Salisbury,
Salutations! I am feeling fine, and appreciate the inquiry. Furthermore, I must reciprocate the question out of more than just formality. I have heard of the goings-on in Parliament, and appreciate your perseverance in a cause that I support as well. Indeed, I believe that the war with America will be a tough one, he thought of Mr. Khalid again, and added, as do many others here. However, staying the course is what is necessary. That is not to say that I wish for war between us and the United States. Only a fool would wish such a thing. Yet I shall keep our soldiers in mind, and will maintain correspondence with the men in charge of that war when possible.
Having said that, I respectfully decline the offer you have presented to me. Were it another time, I might have said yes. Perhaps in the future, I shall be available to assist in this endeavour, yet I not only think it unlikely that I shall be done anytime soon with what I am doing in my current position, I also pray that the war does not last long enough for such things to be necessary. I am currently on the verge of a campaign that I expect will retake a good portion of the Upper Nile, allowing us to strike at the heart of Sudanese resistance in the following campaign. We can not allow these radicals to harass us any longer than we must. The best defense is a strong offense. It is necessary to eliminate this threat as soon as possible.
The plans I have laid are almost ready, and I would like to be here to personally execute them. Thus, I refuse to depart unless it is deemed absolutely necessary. My cause here, while not as dramatic as the war against the Americans almost certainly shall be, is important, and I would prefer that it isn’t neglected. There are battles yet to be fought, even in places as remote as the Sudan. I intend to be there for them.
Sincerely,
Major-General Horatio Herbert Kitchener,
Sirdar of Egypt.
August 3, 1896
Horatio Herbert Kitchener was torn. Just moments ago, an aide had burst in, and as he read the letter the young man had given him, he pondered
his future, and that of the British Empire. The letter itself, penned in a stunningly immaculate script, was the work of Lord Salisbury, the Prime Minister.
Dear Sir Kitchener, it read, how do you do? Let me open by saying that I am aware of your impressive work in leading our forces and those of Egypt against the Sudanese radicals so successfully. It is commendable indeed. I am certain I don’t need to remind you of the horrid events of years past, the death of the great General, Charles Gordon. That bit deep. Charles had been a good friend, and an excellent soldier. He also knew that it could not have been easy for Salisbury to bring that up, as government mismanagement had played a huge part in his death.
In recognition of that, it continued, I would like to request your services in the conflict recently entered into by the British Empire. I needn’t go over the details, as I am sure that you have already heard them. With those in mind, I would ask you to take this proposal into serious consideration. You would be placed in charge of the British Army forces in Guyana, and promoted to the rank of Lieutenant-General upon your arrival as a result. I reach across the Empire for talent because, between you and I, I believe that this war will take most everything we have. Many in this Parliament assert that the war will not last more than a few months, weeks even! Yet they know not the scope of resources the United States can bring to bear. These are nearly limitless, and no one, not even the Americans themselves, know their capacity.
Why, therefore, do I ask that we resist? Because we are the British. I firmly believe that we make up the greatest nation on the face of this Earth, and that despite the greater manpower of America, they will lose heart if they do not quickly gain ground, and you, being one of the greatest military minds of our day, are the man who we need to keep them from gaining that ground. I will not force you to accept. I merely ask that you truly consider it, as your choice, yea or nay, may decide the fate of this war. Good luck and Godspeed. Sincerely, Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury.
Kitchener read the well-worded letter another two times before he set it down. "I need some air," he said to himself. On that note, he stood up, and departed the building for a leisurely stroll along the Nile. Though it did not compare to Britain in his eyes, Kitchener had become accustomed to Egypt. After all, he had been here for years. As Sirdar, the British commander of the Anglo-Egyptian force that served as Egypt’s Army, he resided in a mansion, aptly named the Sirdaria. It was certainly fancier than France, Palestine, Ireland, or England, the four other places he had lived in his lifetime. After all, it was located on the Zamalek, an island in the Nile which ran through Cairo. The Zamalek was as such because it was the residence of the wealthiest people in Cairo, which was owed to its beauty. It included the Egyptian Opera House (the performances put on there were quite good), a sporting club, and a Grand Garden of exotic plants, taken from around the world. That was just the beginning.
As Kitchener emerged onto the streets, he was greeted by a bright, sunny day, which seemed to be the only type of weather the Egyptians experienced. He had been walking along the water for what could not have been more than a few minutes, when he was joined by another man, one with whom he had frequently walked and talked. The wealthy Egyptian went by the name Youssef Khalid. Khalid, an incredibly rich man who owned a boating company on the Nile, lived in the house right next to the Sirdaria. He was nearing 70 years of age, but was as sharp as a man could be. Yet there was one curious habit of his, which annoyed Kitchener to no end; he spoke in complex anecdotes, analogies, and euphemisms.
"Ah, if it isn’t Mr. Khalid. What brings you out here on this fine day?" opened Kitchener.
"I could ask you the same thing," he replied, evading the question as he often did.
"You never miss a beat, eh?" Without waiting for a response, he continued, "If you must know, I am considering a move to the Americas. I was not sure of exactly which course to take, so I took a walk instead." Normally he wouldn’t have revealed such information, yet he trusted Khalid. That was odd, because Khalid was a known Egyptian Patriot, who supported independence. The situation grew even stranger, because the government knew he was as much, yet they did nothing. The reason he was so trusted was not because he was a pacifist, for he wasn’t, nor was it that he was a coward. Yet if an Egyptian rebellion arose (something Kitchener knew was unlikely), Khalid would not have supported it. He was the shrewdest and cleverest investor the Sirdar had ever known.
"Hm, the clouds of war, I sense, growing on the horizon. This will not be a short conflict, nor will it be an easy one."
"Oh, and why is that, oh sage?!" Kitchener asked patronizingly.
"A good magician never reveals his secrets."
Unhappy with the answer, though not expecting anything more specific, Kitchener maneuvered around it. "Well, who do you see wining this war?"
Khalid’s countenance, formerly aglow, darkened. "That, I can not say for sure. A wise man can travel the road of destiny and see what lies before him in the foggy distance, yet no one knows what lies beyond the horizon."
"And what does a foolish man do?" Kitchener kept him going because he enjoyed his explanations, even if they weren’t always easy to understand.
"A foolish man? He casts not a glance at the horizon, rather he stares at his feet as he walks, observing the pock-marked road below."
"Hm. Yet if their should be a hole in the road before him, how would the wise man see it?"
Khalid looked over at him. "Peripheral vision," he returned, turning the analogy into a joke. The two let loose a hearty laugh, and then walked in silence for the next few minutes.
When they at last returned to the conversation, it was Kitchener who broke the ice. "What would you recommend when it comes to the matter I have presented to you, sir? Would you go, or stay?"
"Ah, you present a challenge." He thought for a moment, and then continued. "Sirdar, if a man spends his lifetime building a grand wall, what good does it do him to stop when only three-quarters complete to go build another wall?" That was surprisingly simple. The wall he referred to must have been the war against the Mahdists of the Sudan. Come to think of it, he had been planning a new campaign into the Sudan, one which looked to be decisive, yet there was no way Khalid could have known that. Could he have?, pondered Kitchener.
"Understood, Mr. Khalid. But enough about me, let us talk about you. How is the business going?" he asked, already knowing the answer. The business was always good.
"The business is always good," he stated in a manner so alike what Kitchener had envisioned that he did a double-take, needing to make sure the sly, old man wasn’t reading his mind. Despite that action, he still wasn’t fully certain. You could never know with that coot.
"I’ve bought even more shares in the Suez Canal Company, and they are paying off quite nicely."
"Smart move. I own some shares myself, yet you probably own half of the company by now!" That, of course, was an exaggeration, yet Khalid did own a large number of shares.
"Ah, now you have me figured out." They were already on their way back by this point, and were nearing their respective homes when one of the ships owned by Khalid’s company passed by. It was not particularly large, yet it was a beautiful vessel.
"Isn’t she lovely? Could any thing on this earth match her beauty?" he asked admiringly, giving Kitchener the impression that he would not accept anything short of an emphatic "yes". The man sure did love his boats. Luckily, the British Commander didn’t need to answer as such, for just moments later, and even larger, if slightly less attractive boat owned by the military, and therefore under his control, passed by.
"You were saying?" said Horatio with a dastardly grin.
"You win this round." It seemed as if he was conceding something great. After another five minutes of walking, they reached their respective residences. "Well, Sirdar, it has been a pleasure. This conversation of ours was enlightening, to say the least. Good day, Sir Kitchener."
"Good day, Mr. Khalid." Englightening, he thought. Did I reveal too much? Then he stopped worrying. With anyone else, that would be sure, but I don’t believe there is a thing I could have told that man he wouldn’t have known already, and in greater detail. Laughing at the thought, he re-entered the Sirdaria, re-energized. After ordering some afternoon tea, he returned to his room and settled in to write a response letter.
He always felt such energy after a walk. The water of the Nile was beautiful at this time of day, and it took his mind off of work and the war.
Or in his case, just work, as his work was the war– a war anyway. Words then flowed from his pen.
Dear Lord Salisbury,
Salutations! I am feeling fine, and appreciate the inquiry. Furthermore, I must reciprocate the question out of more than just formality. I have heard of the goings-on in Parliament, and appreciate your perseverance in a cause that I support as well. Indeed, I believe that the war with America will be a tough one, he thought of Mr. Khalid again, and added, as do many others here. However, staying the course is what is necessary. That is not to say that I wish for war between us and the United States. Only a fool would wish such a thing. Yet I shall keep our soldiers in mind, and will maintain correspondence with the men in charge of that war when possible.
Having said that, I respectfully decline the offer you have presented to me. Were it another time, I might have said yes. Perhaps in the future, I shall be available to assist in this endeavour, yet I not only think it unlikely that I shall be done anytime soon with what I am doing in my current position, I also pray that the war does not last long enough for such things to be necessary. I am currently on the verge of a campaign that I expect will retake a good portion of the Upper Nile, allowing us to strike at the heart of Sudanese resistance in the following campaign. We can not allow these radicals to harass us any longer than we must. The best defense is a strong offense. It is necessary to eliminate this threat as soon as possible.
The plans I have laid are almost ready, and I would like to be here to personally execute them. Thus, I refuse to depart unless it is deemed absolutely necessary. My cause here, while not as dramatic as the war against the Americans almost certainly shall be, is important, and I would prefer that it isn’t neglected. There are battles yet to be fought, even in places as remote as the Sudan. I intend to be there for them.
Sincerely,
Major-General Horatio Herbert Kitchener,
Sirdar of Egypt.
Nice. I like the ending. Now, I'm curious the fronts that the war will take. There will be a front in Venezuela, maybe Canada, and a naval campagin. What were the positions of the other South American nations at this time. Who will they support?
I assume that many of them will support Venezuela with words, and maybe one or two with arms. As of yet, it doesn't look like any will be going to war with Britain any time soon.
However, that is not to say that South America shall remain neutral forever.
Never heard of it, but I'll look it up right now. Thanks.
Edit: I can't find anything about it.
Last edited:
Jaded_Railman
Banned
This is going to be a very awkward war. British investors have fortunes in American railroads and factories, so they won't be happy if Her Majesty's navy goes around bombarding American infrastructure, but the longer these things are left intact the more they can be used to build a fleet to compare to that of the British.
Perhaps sabotage is the order of the day?
Perhaps sabotage is the order of the day?
Well, there is the possibility that British-Owned parts of the American infrastructure could be nationalized or redistributed to pro-American forces.
Anyway, great TL Rex! Is it possible that the British Might try to get Mexico to ally with their Just Cause?
Well, there is the possibility that British-Owned parts of the American infrastructure could be nationalized or redistributed to pro-American forces.
Anyway, great TL Rex! Is it possible that the British Might try to get Mexico to ally with their Just Cause?
ANYTHING is possible, but I don't think you should count on that.
ANYTHING is possible, but I don't think you should count on that.
Of Course, but who doesn't enjoy the possibility of American Imperialism and American Socialism fused into an ASB Hybrid?
Jaded_Railman
Banned
Grover Cleveland isn't the president to do that. Teddy might have, but Grover was an old school liberal.
Hmm. This is interesting.
On who will win? Britain - by a whisker.
The US Army is not big enough right now to storm Canada. Some skirmishes on the Canadian border will happen with no real gains until the US decides to fully mobilise. If they will or not is actually a big question. The Old School G.O.P. would probably never use conscription and I don't know how many volunteers would join up just as many as WWI I imagine.
The Royal Navy will dominate the water absolutely, the US Navy isn't up to scratch technologically at this period, fleet modernisation had only just began - let alone in terms of sheer numbers. Any ideas of the US taking British Island colonies is sheer bullshit, it's just not going to happen. The US may be able to pull out a few victories, but I think, ironically, the US is generally going to have the problem of overestimating itself.
The US will probably attempt to use US Marines to aid Venezuela, US Marines half lived in latin America 1870-1935. I don't know much about Venezuela's army, I don't think they will last long, the Carribbean will become a British Lake before too long and Guyana can be reinforced from South Africa and West Africa. Speaking of which, does anyone think the British might annex Liberia? A possibly US ally pre-emptively attacked, this might antagonise other powers, as this what at the height of the scramble for Africa.
Once the war in Venezuela is won, the British will try a landing in Florida, or the gulf of Mexico. Speaking of Mexico, it's a strong possibility, it's only been 50 years since the Mexican-American War, and Porfirio Díaz is the type to ally with Britain. A Second Front would be exactly what the British need, since we're talking a little into the war here, Canada would be buckling under the weight.
I expect the US to take big losses from over-ambitious plans, e.g. trying to snatch Jamaica and such-like, like Britain with Gallipoli in WW1.
Anyway, Brilliant thus far - please continue.
On who will win? Britain - by a whisker.
The US Army is not big enough right now to storm Canada. Some skirmishes on the Canadian border will happen with no real gains until the US decides to fully mobilise. If they will or not is actually a big question. The Old School G.O.P. would probably never use conscription and I don't know how many volunteers would join up just as many as WWI I imagine.
The Royal Navy will dominate the water absolutely, the US Navy isn't up to scratch technologically at this period, fleet modernisation had only just began - let alone in terms of sheer numbers. Any ideas of the US taking British Island colonies is sheer bullshit, it's just not going to happen. The US may be able to pull out a few victories, but I think, ironically, the US is generally going to have the problem of overestimating itself.
The US will probably attempt to use US Marines to aid Venezuela, US Marines half lived in latin America 1870-1935. I don't know much about Venezuela's army, I don't think they will last long, the Carribbean will become a British Lake before too long and Guyana can be reinforced from South Africa and West Africa. Speaking of which, does anyone think the British might annex Liberia? A possibly US ally pre-emptively attacked, this might antagonise other powers, as this what at the height of the scramble for Africa.
Once the war in Venezuela is won, the British will try a landing in Florida, or the gulf of Mexico. Speaking of Mexico, it's a strong possibility, it's only been 50 years since the Mexican-American War, and Porfirio Díaz is the type to ally with Britain. A Second Front would be exactly what the British need, since we're talking a little into the war here, Canada would be buckling under the weight.
I expect the US to take big losses from over-ambitious plans, e.g. trying to snatch Jamaica and such-like, like Britain with Gallipoli in WW1.
Anyway, Brilliant thus far - please continue.
If the Britsh have won Venezuela, I don't think they will want to open a second front against the US, because they have gotten all that they wanted, and they are only hurting a potential trading partner. I suppose if the US mobalized into Canada, the British would want Mexico as an ally, but I though Mexico was very unstable at this time.
Wolfhound has it on the ball. The only addition I'd make is that America is in the era of the OTL Spanish-American War, and it had plenty of eager volunteers from all walks of the nation, and the S-A War was seen in a way of symbolically unifying north and south again. The same might happen with this war.
If the war lasts long won't the US be a convenient market for French and German weapons? I don't think the Brits would try and sink French or German vessels even if their cargo is weapons and munitions bound for America.
They wouldn't have to, how are America going to get those weapons with blockaded ports? Unless France and Germany are willing to use their Eastern colonies - though this will stop making profit about now.
Possible, but the crime might be a bit bang-against what Díaz was trying to do at the time, he was all focused on order etc.
Why wouldnt the Royal Navy blockade the west coast too?
I don't think an actual blockade is going to be possible. The U.S. navy at this point is already the third or fourth strongest in the world and likely the most modern, what with being newbuilt within the last decade. Britain can't afford to devote most of its navy to the Americas, and simply cannot hold onto Canada if the war expands. A blockade would require Canadian bases, and the U.S. would have to invade if there is a blockade.
Besides, neither side really wants the war. Both are in it more or less solely over pride. Neither has any real interest in making this a war to the death, which a blockade would imply. There is a good chance that the war would just be both sides skirmishing in Venezuela, the U.S. Navy hiding mostly hiding in port and dueling with the Royal Navy in the Caribbean while both sides ignore the huge Northern front, refrain from raiding each other's shipping outside of the actual theater, and constantly look for ways out of the war with minimal loss of face.
I appreciate the spirited discussion, and encourage it to continue.
Anyway, here is another update.
Anyway, here is another update.