Well thanks. I tried to make this TL as less ASB as possible. I'll post the next update soon. Just wait untill you all hear about what happens in Europe.....(Hint:No Austro-Prussian War but still a violent couple of decades)
The Southern Victory
- Thread starter 1.36
- Start date
Well thanks. I tried to make this TL as less ASB as possible. I'll post the next update soon. Just wait untill you all hear about what happens in Europe.....(Hint:No Austro-Prussian War but still a violent couple of decades)
Here the end of the ACW
The Confederates spent the rest of June and all of July and August preparing their forces and mopping up Union troops in North-West Virginia. By September, they were ready to invade Maryland. On September 4, 1862 the Army of Northern Virginia, led the their newly appointed commander General Robert E. Lee crossed the Potomac River north of Washington and advanced into Maryland. The Confederates had made good progress and Lee eventually divided his army into four parts as it moved deeper into Maryland. General McClellan began moving his 87,000 troops out of Washington on September 7 to stop the Confederate invasion. However McClellan did not realize that Lee had divided his troops. However his fortunes had turned when two Union scouts discovered a set of detailed plans about Lee’s movement throughout Maryland. McClellan learned that Lee had divided his army and he realized that he could catch up to the larger part of it near the town of Sharpsburg and possibly even defeat it. However McClellan took no action because he was worried that if he engaged Lee, he would bring together his divided forces and outnumber McClellan. As a result, the Army of the Potomac just followed Lee’s troops for the next several days into Pennsylvania.
McClellan finally engaged Lee’s Army at the little town of Hanover, Pennsylvania on September 14. This battle had all the makings of an epic battle, with several thousand men fighting on each side. The Army of Northern Virginia had been traveling up Frederick Street when the encountered the Army of the Potomac stationed there at about 10:00 AM. This led to a small battle between the Confederate scouts and the much larger Union force in the town. The Confederates then retreated down the road to tell the advancing column what had happened. South east of the town, Confederate cavalry encountered more Union troops. Meanwhile, the Army of the Potomac believed that the Confederate’s that they had just met were part of a small group of soldiers that had entered the area in search of supplies. As a result the Union army sent out it's own scouts to peruse the Rebels. However, they soon realized that the scouts were part of the main force of the Army of Northern Virginia. By noon, both armies had begun engaging each other. The Union army had begun the battle by sending about half of their soldiers into the fray but by three o’clock, they had deployed all of their forces just outside of Hanover along Frederick Street and were locked in a stalemate with the enemy. In an effort to break the deadlock, McClellan ordered his artillery to take up positions on a hilled cemetery and shell Confederate troops on the south side of Indian run. But, McClellan had made a huge mistake by not leaving enough men behind in the town itself to prevent anyone from striking from behind. Lee soon realized this and ordered his cavalry under the command of J.E.B. Stuart to sweep around the town and attack McClellan’s troops from behind. The plan was a stunning success and at five o'clock the Confederate Cavalry started to charge down Frederick Street from the north while Lee’s troops advanced from the south and crossed the bridge that stretched Indian Run. The Union artillery opened fire on the bridge in an effort to stop the Confederate charge. After a few minutes, the Union batteries succeeded in knocking out the bridge. But this would prove to be a terrible mistake because Lee had intended for the Union artillery to destroy the bridge, thus trapping McClellan between J.E.B.’s cavalry and Lee’s troops. Upon realizing that they were surrounded, the Union troops either surrendered, or tried to cross the river while being fired upon by Confederate troops along the shore. The Battle of Hanover Run turned out to be a total disaster for the Union, especially moral wise. Within the next few days, Lees army marched unopposed into Baltimore. The war in the East, was over.
Following the disastrous battle of Shiloh, General Grant and the Army of the Ohio was forced to retreat deep into Kentucky because of Confederate attempts to take the state. In early July, Confederate General Braxton Bragg crossed the Tennessee-Kentucky border with hopes to secure the state for the Confederacy. His advance into Kentucky had been relatively unchecked and by mid August, his forces had occupied Lexington. Bragg then planed to move through Frankfort and take Louisville. However, the fleeing Army of the Ohio had arrived in Louisville first, this meant that Bragg would be forced to fight another battle. The two forces met at Frankfort on August 16. after several hours of heave fighting, the Confederates were forced to retreat, however despite the tactical victory for the Union, it was a strategic victory for the Confederacy because while the Union Army was drawn away from Louisville, Confederate Cavalry and some light foot soldiers occupied the city. This was a major morale boost for the Confederates. The victory would not last long though because the Union soon retook the city. Following this string of events, a stalemate would last until the end of the war. The situation in Missouri was almost the same as in Kentucky. The Union being forced to flee before the much smaller, but better led Confederate Army. In fact after the Battle of Pea Ridge, Brigadier General Samuel R. Curtis began a huge retreat across southern Missouri all the way to the Independence. All the while, they were harassed by Confederate raiding parties. Missouri was not the most ideal place to be stationed in as a Union soldier in the first place. Ever state the Confederates crossed the state line, the huge guerrilla war between Pro-Union and Pro-Confederate sympathizers that had been plaguing the state since it's government had tried to seceded from the United States back in 1861, grew even more intense. And despite the rise of Pro-Confederate forces in southern Missouri, Major General Earl Van Dorn and his Confederate Army could not advance past the Union stronghold at
Independence. So the Confederates called on Major General Sterling Price and his soon to be legendary Army of Missouri to make a raid parallel to the Mississippi River all the way to St. Louis and then west to Jefferson. Price met the call and in June his Army began “Price’s Raid” they soon drove through Union held Missouri and terrorized the Union held countryside. Price’s first major encounter with Union forces was on June 10 at Fort Davidson. This fort was crucial on the road to St. Louis. Following a quick Confederate victory, the Army of Missouri then moved on to Washington County and then encountered General Andrew J. Smith who was in change of the defense of the St. Louis area. The two cavalry armies met at the city of Potosi on June 14 in what was to be one of the largest cavalry battles west of the Mississippi River. Despite being a strategic stalemate, the Union forces were forced to withdraw because of a major Confederate attack on Independence further south. By June 17, the Confederate cavalry were just outside of St. Louis. With Union forces spread out so thin and with the extra Confederate reinforcements arriving from Texas, St. Louis fell on June 30 and Independence fell on August 1.
Following the cease fire, it was decided that London would be the site of the peace talks. Representatives from the USA, CSA, England , France, Italy, Austria, Prussia, Spain, Portugal and many others arrived to conclude a lasting peace. (Russia declined an invitation. Still being pro-Union it would, take two years for them to recognize the CSA) The major terms of the treaty were:
1.The United States of America were to recognize the Confederate States of America as an independent nation.
2.The United States of America were to recognize the states of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, Missouri below the Missouri River (The Union kept the rest of the state and renamed it [I don't have a clue, any ideas?]) and Kentucky as Confederate states. The Indian Territory and the so-called Confederate Arizona Territory were given to the CSA as territories while the Union incorporated West Virginia as the 35 state.
3.Both sides were to swap all prisoners.
4.The Confederates were to withdraw from Maryland and any other Union territory north of the new boundary while the Union were to withdraw from Louisiana.
Following the signing of the Treaty of London on December 3, the United States government rejected a proposed amendment to the US constitution that would ban slavery from the rest of the Union. This move was made in order to keep the remaining slave states happy. The US government also unofficially moved the capital to Philadelphia. Congress would still meet in Washington and the President would still live there but if relations with the Confederates got hot, the US government would de-facto move to Philadelphia.
(Well thats the rest of the war! I'll post a map of NA when I can figure out what to name the Union half of Missouri, How about just North Missouri?)
The Invasion of Maryland and Pennsylvania
The Confederates spent the rest of June and all of July and August preparing their forces and mopping up Union troops in North-West Virginia. By September, they were ready to invade Maryland. On September 4, 1862 the Army of Northern Virginia, led the their newly appointed commander General Robert E. Lee crossed the Potomac River north of Washington and advanced into Maryland. The Confederates had made good progress and Lee eventually divided his army into four parts as it moved deeper into Maryland. General McClellan began moving his 87,000 troops out of Washington on September 7 to stop the Confederate invasion. However McClellan did not realize that Lee had divided his troops. However his fortunes had turned when two Union scouts discovered a set of detailed plans about Lee’s movement throughout Maryland. McClellan learned that Lee had divided his army and he realized that he could catch up to the larger part of it near the town of Sharpsburg and possibly even defeat it. However McClellan took no action because he was worried that if he engaged Lee, he would bring together his divided forces and outnumber McClellan. As a result, the Army of the Potomac just followed Lee’s troops for the next several days into Pennsylvania.
The Battle of Hanover/Indian Run
McClellan finally engaged Lee’s Army at the little town of Hanover, Pennsylvania on September 14. This battle had all the makings of an epic battle, with several thousand men fighting on each side. The Army of Northern Virginia had been traveling up Frederick Street when the encountered the Army of the Potomac stationed there at about 10:00 AM. This led to a small battle between the Confederate scouts and the much larger Union force in the town. The Confederates then retreated down the road to tell the advancing column what had happened. South east of the town, Confederate cavalry encountered more Union troops. Meanwhile, the Army of the Potomac believed that the Confederate’s that they had just met were part of a small group of soldiers that had entered the area in search of supplies. As a result the Union army sent out it's own scouts to peruse the Rebels. However, they soon realized that the scouts were part of the main force of the Army of Northern Virginia. By noon, both armies had begun engaging each other. The Union army had begun the battle by sending about half of their soldiers into the fray but by three o’clock, they had deployed all of their forces just outside of Hanover along Frederick Street and were locked in a stalemate with the enemy. In an effort to break the deadlock, McClellan ordered his artillery to take up positions on a hilled cemetery and shell Confederate troops on the south side of Indian run. But, McClellan had made a huge mistake by not leaving enough men behind in the town itself to prevent anyone from striking from behind. Lee soon realized this and ordered his cavalry under the command of J.E.B. Stuart to sweep around the town and attack McClellan’s troops from behind. The plan was a stunning success and at five o'clock the Confederate Cavalry started to charge down Frederick Street from the north while Lee’s troops advanced from the south and crossed the bridge that stretched Indian Run. The Union artillery opened fire on the bridge in an effort to stop the Confederate charge. After a few minutes, the Union batteries succeeded in knocking out the bridge. But this would prove to be a terrible mistake because Lee had intended for the Union artillery to destroy the bridge, thus trapping McClellan between J.E.B.’s cavalry and Lee’s troops. Upon realizing that they were surrounded, the Union troops either surrendered, or tried to cross the river while being fired upon by Confederate troops along the shore. The Battle of Hanover Run turned out to be a total disaster for the Union, especially moral wise. Within the next few days, Lees army marched unopposed into Baltimore. The war in the East, was over.
The War in Kentucky, Missouri and Louisiana
Following the disastrous battle of Shiloh, General Grant and the Army of the Ohio was forced to retreat deep into Kentucky because of Confederate attempts to take the state. In early July, Confederate General Braxton Bragg crossed the Tennessee-Kentucky border with hopes to secure the state for the Confederacy. His advance into Kentucky had been relatively unchecked and by mid August, his forces had occupied Lexington. Bragg then planed to move through Frankfort and take Louisville. However, the fleeing Army of the Ohio had arrived in Louisville first, this meant that Bragg would be forced to fight another battle. The two forces met at Frankfort on August 16. after several hours of heave fighting, the Confederates were forced to retreat, however despite the tactical victory for the Union, it was a strategic victory for the Confederacy because while the Union Army was drawn away from Louisville, Confederate Cavalry and some light foot soldiers occupied the city. This was a major morale boost for the Confederates. The victory would not last long though because the Union soon retook the city. Following this string of events, a stalemate would last until the end of the war. The situation in Missouri was almost the same as in Kentucky. The Union being forced to flee before the much smaller, but better led Confederate Army. In fact after the Battle of Pea Ridge, Brigadier General Samuel R. Curtis began a huge retreat across southern Missouri all the way to the Independence. All the while, they were harassed by Confederate raiding parties. Missouri was not the most ideal place to be stationed in as a Union soldier in the first place. Ever state the Confederates crossed the state line, the huge guerrilla war between Pro-Union and Pro-Confederate sympathizers that had been plaguing the state since it's government had tried to seceded from the United States back in 1861, grew even more intense. And despite the rise of Pro-Confederate forces in southern Missouri, Major General Earl Van Dorn and his Confederate Army could not advance past the Union stronghold at
Independence. So the Confederates called on Major General Sterling Price and his soon to be legendary Army of Missouri to make a raid parallel to the Mississippi River all the way to St. Louis and then west to Jefferson. Price met the call and in June his Army began “Price’s Raid” they soon drove through Union held Missouri and terrorized the Union held countryside. Price’s first major encounter with Union forces was on June 10 at Fort Davidson. This fort was crucial on the road to St. Louis. Following a quick Confederate victory, the Army of Missouri then moved on to Washington County and then encountered General Andrew J. Smith who was in change of the defense of the St. Louis area. The two cavalry armies met at the city of Potosi on June 14 in what was to be one of the largest cavalry battles west of the Mississippi River. Despite being a strategic stalemate, the Union forces were forced to withdraw because of a major Confederate attack on Independence further south. By June 17, the Confederate cavalry were just outside of St. Louis. With Union forces spread out so thin and with the extra Confederate reinforcements arriving from Texas, St. Louis fell on June 30 and Independence fell on August 1.
The Final Months Of The War
In the waning months of the war, Union morale was at its lowest point ever. Despite retaking Louisville and capturing New Orleans, Union forces elsewhere were falling apart. In Arizona, the Confederates had complete control, in Missouri, the cities of St. Louis and Independence had fallen and in Maryland, General Lee’s troops made camp in Baltimore. President Lincoln was desperate for a victory. His only chance to win the war was to take advantage of the Union toehold in Louisiana. The new strategy was to Follow the Mississippi River up to Vicksburg and the Red River to Shreveport. The Union Army of the Gulf set out on the “Louisiana Campaign” on August 1, the same day that the capital of Missouri fell to the Confederates. The campaign began very well and on August 10, the state capital of Baton Rouge fell. The next major battle occurred on August 16 at Yellow Bayou and was another Union victory. The situation was becoming a major distraction for the Confederates who were busy launching another attack on Louisville and trying to cross the Missouri River. The Army of Mississippi (The same army that was defeated during the Battle of New Orleans) was recalled from Kentucky on the 11 and by the 27th, had arrived In Vicksburg. Meanwhile, Elements of the Army of Missouri were dispatched to Shreveport to protect the new temporary capital of Louisiana. Following the battle of Yellow Bayou, the Army of the Gulf split in two, one heading to Vicksburg and the other to Shreveport. With subsequent Union victories on September 3 at Grand Ecore and September 12 at Mansfield, the city of Shreveport was just a few miles away. The Confederates made a last stand just outside of Shreveport on September 20. but failed to defend the city. The Union troops continued to make thier drive north. Meanwhile on the Mississippi River, the the second half of the army of the Gulf faced a stronger foe. The Army of the Mississippi was out to get revenge for the loss of New Orleans earlier that year. The Union army only managed to advance just south of Vicksburg before suffering a humiliating defeat at the hands of the Army of Mississippi in the battle of Vicksburg.
While all of this was happening, on the other side of the world two powers would make a decision that would settle the outcome of the war once and for all. After hearing the results of the war in Maryland along with other Confederate victories, the governments of both the Second French Empire and the British Empire discussed whether or not to recognize the C.S.A. On September 30, 1862 The government of London formally recognized the Confederate States of America . Becoming the first nation to do so. Paris followed suit on October 2. Within a month, several other nations recognized the new republic. There were some notable exceptions though. The Russian Empire, having been a long time enemy of England and a supporter of the USA during the war refused to recognize the Confederacy. Despite the refusal of Russia to recognize the Confederacy, the new nation had become allies with two of the strongest powers on the globe. President Lincoln realized that the war was virtually over, the next step that England and France would surely take would be to order the United States to make peace with the Confederacy. On October 19 they did just that. Lincoln tried in vain to keep the inevitable from happening, even arguing with the French and British ambassadors for 4 1/2 hours but by the end of the day, he was forced to agree to peace talks. At 10:00 AM eastern time October 20, a cease fire was declared all along the US-CS border. The next step was to draft a peace treaty.
The Treaty Of London
Following the cease fire, it was decided that London would be the site of the peace talks. Representatives from the USA, CSA, England , France, Italy, Austria, Prussia, Spain, Portugal and many others arrived to conclude a lasting peace. (Russia declined an invitation. Still being pro-Union it would, take two years for them to recognize the CSA) The major terms of the treaty were:
1.The United States of America were to recognize the Confederate States of America as an independent nation.
2.The United States of America were to recognize the states of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, Missouri below the Missouri River (The Union kept the rest of the state and renamed it [I don't have a clue, any ideas?]) and Kentucky as Confederate states. The Indian Territory and the so-called Confederate Arizona Territory were given to the CSA as territories while the Union incorporated West Virginia as the 35 state.
3.Both sides were to swap all prisoners.
4.The Confederates were to withdraw from Maryland and any other Union territory north of the new boundary while the Union were to withdraw from Louisiana.
Following the signing of the Treaty of London on December 3, the United States government rejected a proposed amendment to the US constitution that would ban slavery from the rest of the Union. This move was made in order to keep the remaining slave states happy. The US government also unofficially moved the capital to Philadelphia. Congress would still meet in Washington and the President would still live there but if relations with the Confederates got hot, the US government would de-facto move to Philadelphia.
(Well thats the rest of the war! I'll post a map of NA when I can figure out what to name the Union half of Missouri, How about just North Missouri?)
Looks interesting.
If Monitor had been lost earlier, wouldn't the Union have just switched construction to Baltimore, from where it could've reached the rebs hardly with sea exposure via the Chesapeake Bay? Plus, Lincoln was a very determined man, given to running risks, whom understood that his war plan depended on naval superiority.
And, the CSA was OTL kept from building more of that class by resource/infrastructure problems, not continued interest, so the CSA coming up with six more is, to say the least, unlikely.
The ironclad battle was really a standoff OTL; the real action was on several ironclad river gunboats built by both sides. The Union mostly dominated in this sphere because it was richer, valued navies more than the South, and had better dockyard systems. River gunboats came before the ironclads; they hardly had to worry about sea exposure.
I'm not seeing how Shiloh was flipped from a W to an L ITTL.
Good luck with it. I don't think Confederate survival is ASB - the Union had more resources, but it was an era where the defensive ruled on land, because rates of fire were high attackers would be killed before they reached enemy lines; that lasted right 'til the tank at the end of WWI. That also means taking Baltimore would've been too slow to be a realistic prospect, because Union reinforcement would've outnumbered Lee too quickly up north. The more so since the war didn't see quick deaths of armies; surely Lincoln would've replaced McC with somebody who would've kept Lee's work hard with the Army of the Potomac?
But I do think it's a little hard with the Bush-like mediocrity Davis matched up against the genius Lincoln, who's rightly considered one of our best. Like Bush II, Davis worked hard at alienating tne world, and, unlike Lincoln, was happy to let mediocre, losing generals stay.
If Monitor had been lost earlier, wouldn't the Union have just switched construction to Baltimore, from where it could've reached the rebs hardly with sea exposure via the Chesapeake Bay? Plus, Lincoln was a very determined man, given to running risks, whom understood that his war plan depended on naval superiority.
And, the CSA was OTL kept from building more of that class by resource/infrastructure problems, not continued interest, so the CSA coming up with six more is, to say the least, unlikely.
The ironclad battle was really a standoff OTL; the real action was on several ironclad river gunboats built by both sides. The Union mostly dominated in this sphere because it was richer, valued navies more than the South, and had better dockyard systems. River gunboats came before the ironclads; they hardly had to worry about sea exposure.
I'm not seeing how Shiloh was flipped from a W to an L ITTL.
Good luck with it. I don't think Confederate survival is ASB - the Union had more resources, but it was an era where the defensive ruled on land, because rates of fire were high attackers would be killed before they reached enemy lines; that lasted right 'til the tank at the end of WWI. That also means taking Baltimore would've been too slow to be a realistic prospect, because Union reinforcement would've outnumbered Lee too quickly up north. The more so since the war didn't see quick deaths of armies; surely Lincoln would've replaced McC with somebody who would've kept Lee's work hard with the Army of the Potomac?
But I do think it's a little hard with the Bush-like mediocrity Davis matched up against the genius Lincoln, who's rightly considered one of our best. Like Bush II, Davis worked hard at alienating tne world, and, unlike Lincoln, was happy to let mediocre, losing generals stay.
I don't see Lee going for Baltimore. His objectives in the 62 Campaign were the armoury at Harpers ferry [Shades of John Brown] and the Weapon factory at York, Pennsylvania.
Lee would The real result of these 1862 [Southerern] Victories, would be the election in Novembre '62 of many Anti War Democrats.
Lincoln would still have put out the Emancipation Proclamation, following one of the Mississippi Victories [He had it written waiting for a victory]
Britain and France would not Force The US out of the War. Instead their recognition would be in the form of informing the US that --
As the Confederate States of America, [Using the Term officially for the first time] Have Raised the US blockade, Her Majesty's Government would take a dim view of any US attempt to reimpose it.
[Similar note from France]
Between these Notes and the election results Lincoln would know the War was over, and would agree to the Ceasefire/Negotiations.
With the CS question ended, Lincoln would turn to Mexico, Informing France that the US considered, French Soldiers in Mexico a violation of the Monroe Doctrine.
This means France would not send Maximilian to Mexico in 1864.
Lee would The real result of these 1862 [Southerern] Victories, would be the election in Novembre '62 of many Anti War Democrats.
Lincoln would still have put out the Emancipation Proclamation, following one of the Mississippi Victories [He had it written waiting for a victory]
Britain and France would not Force The US out of the War. Instead their recognition would be in the form of informing the US that --
As the Confederate States of America, [Using the Term officially for the first time] Have Raised the US blockade, Her Majesty's Government would take a dim view of any US attempt to reimpose it.
[Similar note from France]
Between these Notes and the election results Lincoln would know the War was over, and would agree to the Ceasefire/Negotiations.
With the CS question ended, Lincoln would turn to Mexico, Informing France that the US considered, French Soldiers in Mexico a violation of the Monroe Doctrine.
This means France would not send Maximilian to Mexico in 1864.
You all have very good points to make. As for the ironclads, while the south was poor, they did have the capabilities to make at least a few more ironclads, these could have outguned their union counterparts. But maybe not. (As shown by the Union victories in Louisiana) The USN probably would not build any more on the east coast due to the "Monitor Incident" though. And with McClellan's army scattred or in Confederate jails, I think that it would take at least a few months for Linclon to creat another army out of scratch. Think about it, Grant is in Kentucky, And all the other major generals are in Louisiana. By the time Linclon even had a replacement general, the rebs could have walked into Baltimore. (Though at a very high price in lives due to local malitias) as for the EP, Linclon probably would not issue it untill the Confederates are driven from Maryland. It would not make since to issue a law like that when your defending your own land rather than invadeing the Reb's. And I chose Britain and France to recognize the Confederacy based off of the current circumstances. It would be the best time to do so because in a few years time, the north would overpower their southern foe regardless of the current front lines. NOw I would imagine the the UK and France would only intervine if 1. The confederates keeped on winning or 2. If the union stared to make a comeback. Anyway any more suggestions would be nice. I hope that this is not really ASB 
Good stuff, good stuff. More please.
I'll post some more in a few days. I've got to find out a new name for the Union half of Missouri. Any ideas. And I also have to get writeing some more. You all read too fast!
Cuba rebelled in the 1870's, and won. Spain agreed to the Cuban demands. [which did not include Independence]
However back in Madrid, Politics prevented Spain from following thru, leading to a second Rebellion in the 1890's. [Independence]
Change a little bit of Spanish politics, and Cuba stays loyal.
?Wonder what effect a loyal Cuba would have on Italian Immigration? OTL enuff Italians entered Cuba to change the White/Black Ratio from 50/50 to 70/30.
?What effect a more Violent Italy unification would have on emigration in general?
well just looking at wiki, the USS New Ironsides and USS Galena were laid down in 1861. Galena was launched on Feb 14 and the Monitor was commissioned on the 25, so there were 2 other Ironclads already either afloat or near completion. both were radically different in design to the Monitor and each other. and were both on the East coast, being bigger and more stable would have easily taken on the CSS Virginia
Edit: also remember that the Garison around DC was a lot bigger than the AotP and very easily been converted into an army if the need arose, even if 1/2 the men were put into an army and someone like Grant or Sherman came East to lead it, they could have slowed down/bloodied the ANV.
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Despite other people having said it better already, the loss of Monitor would not in any way have been a war winner for the Confederacy. The blockade was effective not so much because it kept ships from getting in and out but because Britain said it was a legal blockade in order to prevent war with the US. Despite the anger it caused in the North the British recognition of the Confederacy as a belligerent actually aided the Union far more than it hurt it. This legalized the Union blockade and meant that having even a few ships on station off the coast was an effective "trip-wire" preventing foreign nations from lending direct aide to the Confederacy. Britain did this for several reasons but first and foremost was that as the primary naval power she wished to reserve these same rights for herself for possible future use. So while losing Monitor may have been a temporary set back it would not have ended the blockade and would have merely forced the Union to build more and better ironclads faster.
Secondly, there is no way in heck that the North retains slavery following a successful secession of the South. Everyone who mattered knew the war was about slavery. And while this was not stated as an official war aim by Lincoln the South knew slavery was doomed as soon as Lincoln was elected. This is why they seceded in the first place. Conversely, having been betrayed by the South and forced into a humiliating peace by the European powers the North would not have kept the very institution that had caused the crisis in the first place. With only Delaware (which had almost ended slavery in 1847 and was losing slaves quickly), Maryland (the seat of government and practically under martial law) and the northern Missouri (full of anti-slavery Germans and barely even a state) as the only slave territories left an Amendment ending slavery would have been ratified very easily.
Finally, I liked the Battle of Hanover. Having grown up there, my brother still lives in Abbotstown, I still have bit of a soft spot for that burb. And besides their pretzels and chips can't be beat.
Benjamin
Secondly, there is no way in heck that the North retains slavery following a successful secession of the South. Everyone who mattered knew the war was about slavery. And while this was not stated as an official war aim by Lincoln the South knew slavery was doomed as soon as Lincoln was elected. This is why they seceded in the first place. Conversely, having been betrayed by the South and forced into a humiliating peace by the European powers the North would not have kept the very institution that had caused the crisis in the first place. With only Delaware (which had almost ended slavery in 1847 and was losing slaves quickly), Maryland (the seat of government and practically under martial law) and the northern Missouri (full of anti-slavery Germans and barely even a state) as the only slave territories left an Amendment ending slavery would have been ratified very easily.
Finally, I liked the Battle of Hanover. Having grown up there, my brother still lives in Abbotstown, I still have bit of a soft spot for that burb. And besides their pretzels and chips can't be beat.
Benjamin
If the Virginia is tearing up ships left and right don't you think it would accelerate the development of American Ironclads?
The USN gave up on the idea following the loss of the Monitor. Any remaining ironclads were given second hand jobs at defending ports as it was "too dangerous to send the out to sea". And as for the north keeping slavery, I originally had the 3th amendment pass but changed it to fail right before I posted. Consider the amendment passed after all. Now Spain will keep Cuba but the CSA will be eying it for a while.
Thanks for your response.
Winning a battle isn't the same thing as destroying an army or even disengaging from it, especially in the Civil War. It took many battles before IOTL before Grant could push Lee back to Richmond, and over a year for the city to fall. Wouldn't this be more of the same? Except, the Army of the Potomac actually outnumbered Lee's troops.
Remember, Lee's troops weren't in modern personnel carrier trucks. They would've had to march slowly to Baltimore, at, well, walking-speed, giving plenty of time for alarms and responses - including troops - to be sent on hoof and railroad. Similarly, Lincoln would've sent in McC's replacement by horse. Have you looked up Baltimore's defenses yet?
McC's replacement presumably would've been Pope, the next in that long chain of Union Potomac generals before Grant.
I'm still waiting for a response to three of my points.
Why wouldn't the Union just move big ironclad construction to Baltimore, since that would let them get to the Confederate Virginia without going to sea via the Chesapeake Bay (check it out via google maps)?
And, I think you're underestimating Lincoln's likeliness to press hard on taking risks for the naval superiority the Union military plan needed,, especially once he saw the rebels take the same risk. He was a deeply determined man, as determined a man as has ever been President.
How was Shiloh was flipped from a Union W to an L ITTL?
Winning a battle isn't the same thing as destroying an army or even disengaging from it, especially in the Civil War. It took many battles before IOTL before Grant could push Lee back to Richmond, and over a year for the city to fall. Wouldn't this be more of the same? Except, the Army of the Potomac actually outnumbered Lee's troops.
Remember, Lee's troops weren't in modern personnel carrier trucks. They would've had to march slowly to Baltimore, at, well, walking-speed, giving plenty of time for alarms and responses - including troops - to be sent on hoof and railroad. Similarly, Lincoln would've sent in McC's replacement by horse. Have you looked up Baltimore's defenses yet?
McC's replacement presumably would've been Pope, the next in that long chain of Union Potomac generals before Grant.
I'm still waiting for a response to three of my points.
Why wouldn't the Union just move big ironclad construction to Baltimore, since that would let them get to the Confederate Virginia without going to sea via the Chesapeake Bay (check it out via google maps)?
And, I think you're underestimating Lincoln's likeliness to press hard on taking risks for the naval superiority the Union military plan needed,, especially once he saw the rebels take the same risk. He was a deeply determined man, as determined a man as has ever been President.
How was Shiloh was flipped from a Union W to an L ITTL?
To the first point:
.To the second, I imagine you will love my CSA survival timeline pemiering soon. In it, we have a CSA far different from that in most TL's. I, as a pro-Reb individual, also don't prefer all the wanking the South usually gets, but I also enjoy a good timeline when I see it.
P.S. Stop giving away my plot details until I premir my timeline today or tomorrow!
i can understand that thinking if you think the Galena and New Ironsides were the same design as the Monitor, but they weren't. they were completely different, more like traditional sea going Wooden ships of the time, heck, the Galena tried to take on the Virginia but the Virginia didn't want to cuz she wanted to go after the Monitor. I agree with T3h_shammy that the loss of the Monitor and the victory of the Virginia would have spured the North to build MORE ironclads. though the Monitor design would have been scraped or used for just river patrol.
First off I would like to say that I will not be posting much more any time soon as I am very buisy IRL. Now as for the Q's. the union did not lose shilo. They had to retreat back into kentucky to face the oncomeing Rebel army. So is was a tactical loss. Now how about instead of just poiting out the mistakes in mt TL, let's all come up with some plausable senarios. If at all possib;le, I would like to see you all come up with your own quick senario of the rest of the ACW following the union defeat at Indian Run. Nothing special, just a few quick words and dates would be nice. Thanks to everyone who's read this (almost 800 views!)
This doesn't follow. You are basically saying that the Union loses it's first Ironclad under conditions that it really shouldn't have been in. They don't try to modify the design to make it better suited to the open ocean. They don't keep going on the already more or less completed ironclads, which could match the Virginia in the open ocean. They don't build gunboats for the litoral and riverine theatres. They don't try to even rip off the Virginia. They just sort of... give up.
And if the USN is limited to ad hoc coastal defenses for their cities against marauding confederate raiders, the war is already lost.
Humm-- So the CS keeps Arizona,
However OTL after the US retook Arizona, Lincoln allowed Juarez to take up residence in Arizona, and even sent the Pinkertons to act as Bodyguards.
So the Question of the Confederate opinion of the Monroe Doctrine, becomes important.
So Given the Independence of the CSA, it appears that the CS would join in with Lincoln's Notes to France, regarding France's withdraw from the Americas.
Now it may be suggested that the CS would change, while trying to by Baja/Sonora.
However seeing how President Polk's attempt to buy part of Mexico, lead to war in 1846. I doubt if the Conservatives in Mexico city, Nor the Liberals under Juarez in Arizona, would be willing.
And the leaders in Richmond would be aware of this.
However OTL after the US retook Arizona, Lincoln allowed Juarez to take up residence in Arizona, and even sent the Pinkertons to act as Bodyguards.
So the Question of the Confederate opinion of the Monroe Doctrine, becomes important.
So Given the Independence of the CSA, it appears that the CS would join in with Lincoln's Notes to France, regarding France's withdraw from the Americas.
Now it may be suggested that the CS would change, while trying to by Baja/Sonora.
However seeing how President Polk's attempt to buy part of Mexico, lead to war in 1846. I doubt if the Conservatives in Mexico city, Nor the Liberals under Juarez in Arizona, would be willing.
And the leaders in Richmond would be aware of this.
First off, I like this TL exceedingly. Given the already-commented-on tweaking to Union naval policy, then everything there appears very plausible.
But I take exception to 2 battles.
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First, as has been commented on, Shiloh. Both sides' armies were green, almost entirely. If there is a rainstorm overnight, then you still have Buell's fresh army in position. Grant's original plan, which Buell okayed, was just a general along-the-line attack. Such an attack would surely mire down in the mud. But Buell has as many fresh troops on the field as the Confederates had organized at all - only 15,000 Confederates actually in position, an equal number still plundering.
So the Confederates may very well hold their positions against Buell's attack. But no way short of ASB will they be able to launch an effective attack of their own. In OTL, 3 more Union divisions arrived late on the second day and were not used at all (McCook, Crittenden, and Thomas' divisions, the latter of which was actually experienced) - so in order to have the scenario you described play out, you need to have the Confederates beat a number of Union troops equal to themselves, 3 Times in 2 Days!
And therefore, if the Union does have to retreat, they do not lose 15,000 captured and 9,000 missing. At most 10,000 from both categories combined. Which means that the balance of power in the west is still strongly with the Union, which means they do not have to retreat all the way back to Kentucky, and even if they do there is no reason for the Confederates to follow them in a timely fashion.
Which does not necessarily mean you scenario is implausible, but that you need at least 1 more decisive Confederate Win to make it play out.
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Second, which I am surprised no one has commented on, Seven Pines/Fair Oaks. It is easy enough to butterfly away both the acoustic shadow and Johnston's wounding. But that is not enough for a decisive Confederate win.
The problem with the Confederate attack was a lack of coordination - divisions traveling down 3 roads, and blocking each other. You need a local PoD in the battle-planning stage to overcome this, which is also plausible.
But you cannot prevent Johnston from holding half of his army in reserve and guarding the Chickahominy River (Jones', McLaws', and A. P. Hill's Divisions). The most additionally aggressive he can be from OTL is to directly order Longstreet's and Whiting's divisions up the Nine Mile Road to support D. H. Hill (and Huger) who were already (sort of) engaged.
Now doubtless that would have decimated the Union IIIrd and IVth corps even more than in OTL. But we must consider D. H. Hill's rate of advance. He pushed the troops before him with ease, until he reached the Seven Pines junction. Here the 3 roads used in the Confederate attack run together, and the Union redoubt (already constructed) guarded all of them. Doubtless the Confederates could overrun these, but it would take time. Their numerical advantage from converging is nullified by their disorganization from converging.
And even if they do win there, Sumner and the IInd corps are now arriving, and they are actually trained. Once again, no way short of ASB can the now-reduced Confederate force throw back a third Union corps, significantly larger than both the IIIrd and IVth.
By nightfall, McClellan realizes that the battle was a fiasco. Being of a defensive mind, he pulls back over the Chickahominy to the north, to consolidate towards his supply base. Yes he can do this. Once the three roads converge, as they go eastward they come closer and closer to the river. The farther back the Union pulls, the safer their position is. Johnston's men are disorganized from the morning and afternoon attacks. Even if he goes outside of his defensive mindset and launches a late afternoon attack, the most it amounts to is a frontal assault against a continually-strengthening Union line, and cannot make the Confederate tactical victory into a decisive one in just 1 day - and after 1 day, McClellan retreats.
The IIIrd and IVth corps are destroyed. The cream of his army is still present, and still outnumbers whatever force Johnston sends out, still leaving people to man the city defenses. And once again, no way outside of ASB are 65,000-70,000 men casualties/prisoners from that battle. If we assume that the entire 2 corps are hors de combat, that is ~40,000 at the absolute pushing-credibility most, and poorly trained ones at that. Which leaves McClellan with ~90,000 men of the better-trained IInd, Vth, and VIth corps.
Again, I'm not saying that this cannot play out into the scenario you describe. But you need at least another battle to make it happen. You need a super-ultra-7-days, if that's not butterflied away, and you need to find McClellan a reason to stay where he is, to let himself be defeated again (assuming he's still in command of course).
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On this subject, if the drive on Memphis is butterflied away previously, there is no reason to Lincoln to pick Pope to replace McClellan, Pope not having his string of victories beyond New Madrid and related. Lincoln in fact has no good choices - Grant, Sherman, and Buell are tainted at Shiloh, and his choices in the east are Sumner, Porter, Franklin, and Burnside - a quite mediocre lot. You could get interesting results here.
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And in some sense, I do sincerely apologize for "just" poking holes in your TL, but I do believe that they are fatal if not addressed even briefly.
And I will happily share my own Confederate Victory TL with you if you ask for it (PoD Post-Vicksburg !!!), but apparently the detail level was too high to get many responses. I'm seriously considering making it a book...
But I take exception to 2 battles.
-------
First, as has been commented on, Shiloh. Both sides' armies were green, almost entirely. If there is a rainstorm overnight, then you still have Buell's fresh army in position. Grant's original plan, which Buell okayed, was just a general along-the-line attack. Such an attack would surely mire down in the mud. But Buell has as many fresh troops on the field as the Confederates had organized at all - only 15,000 Confederates actually in position, an equal number still plundering.
So the Confederates may very well hold their positions against Buell's attack. But no way short of ASB will they be able to launch an effective attack of their own. In OTL, 3 more Union divisions arrived late on the second day and were not used at all (McCook, Crittenden, and Thomas' divisions, the latter of which was actually experienced) - so in order to have the scenario you described play out, you need to have the Confederates beat a number of Union troops equal to themselves, 3 Times in 2 Days!
And therefore, if the Union does have to retreat, they do not lose 15,000 captured and 9,000 missing. At most 10,000 from both categories combined. Which means that the balance of power in the west is still strongly with the Union, which means they do not have to retreat all the way back to Kentucky, and even if they do there is no reason for the Confederates to follow them in a timely fashion.
Which does not necessarily mean you scenario is implausible, but that you need at least 1 more decisive Confederate Win to make it play out.
-------
Second, which I am surprised no one has commented on, Seven Pines/Fair Oaks. It is easy enough to butterfly away both the acoustic shadow and Johnston's wounding. But that is not enough for a decisive Confederate win.
The problem with the Confederate attack was a lack of coordination - divisions traveling down 3 roads, and blocking each other. You need a local PoD in the battle-planning stage to overcome this, which is also plausible.
But you cannot prevent Johnston from holding half of his army in reserve and guarding the Chickahominy River (Jones', McLaws', and A. P. Hill's Divisions). The most additionally aggressive he can be from OTL is to directly order Longstreet's and Whiting's divisions up the Nine Mile Road to support D. H. Hill (and Huger) who were already (sort of) engaged.
Now doubtless that would have decimated the Union IIIrd and IVth corps even more than in OTL. But we must consider D. H. Hill's rate of advance. He pushed the troops before him with ease, until he reached the Seven Pines junction. Here the 3 roads used in the Confederate attack run together, and the Union redoubt (already constructed) guarded all of them. Doubtless the Confederates could overrun these, but it would take time. Their numerical advantage from converging is nullified by their disorganization from converging.
And even if they do win there, Sumner and the IInd corps are now arriving, and they are actually trained. Once again, no way short of ASB can the now-reduced Confederate force throw back a third Union corps, significantly larger than both the IIIrd and IVth.
By nightfall, McClellan realizes that the battle was a fiasco. Being of a defensive mind, he pulls back over the Chickahominy to the north, to consolidate towards his supply base. Yes he can do this. Once the three roads converge, as they go eastward they come closer and closer to the river. The farther back the Union pulls, the safer their position is. Johnston's men are disorganized from the morning and afternoon attacks. Even if he goes outside of his defensive mindset and launches a late afternoon attack, the most it amounts to is a frontal assault against a continually-strengthening Union line, and cannot make the Confederate tactical victory into a decisive one in just 1 day - and after 1 day, McClellan retreats.
The IIIrd and IVth corps are destroyed. The cream of his army is still present, and still outnumbers whatever force Johnston sends out, still leaving people to man the city defenses. And once again, no way outside of ASB are 65,000-70,000 men casualties/prisoners from that battle. If we assume that the entire 2 corps are hors de combat, that is ~40,000 at the absolute pushing-credibility most, and poorly trained ones at that. Which leaves McClellan with ~90,000 men of the better-trained IInd, Vth, and VIth corps.
Again, I'm not saying that this cannot play out into the scenario you describe. But you need at least another battle to make it happen. You need a super-ultra-7-days, if that's not butterflied away, and you need to find McClellan a reason to stay where he is, to let himself be defeated again (assuming he's still in command of course).
-------
On this subject, if the drive on Memphis is butterflied away previously, there is no reason to Lincoln to pick Pope to replace McClellan, Pope not having his string of victories beyond New Madrid and related. Lincoln in fact has no good choices - Grant, Sherman, and Buell are tainted at Shiloh, and his choices in the east are Sumner, Porter, Franklin, and Burnside - a quite mediocre lot. You could get interesting results here.
-------
And in some sense, I do sincerely apologize for "just" poking holes in your TL, but I do believe that they are fatal if not addressed even briefly.
And I will happily share my own Confederate Victory TL with you if you ask for it (PoD Post-Vicksburg !!!), but apparently the detail level was too high to get many responses. I'm seriously considering making it a book...