The Second Carthaginian Empire

[Diamond]

Yet Another Teaser Map!

When I have difficulty deciding where to take events in the next section, I draw maps to help unstick my brain. This one may change slightly, but right now its looking pretty solid.

Notes:

-Lu Tzu is the most powerful of the so-called Heretic Kingdoms (founded by Buddhist & Confucian refugees fleeing China). Its main province(s) is the southern Lu Tzu Isles (OTL Philippines).

-Australia is known as 'Lemuria' because of the 'ghost-men' (aborigines) who trade with the first Carthaginian and Lu Tzuan explorerers.

-The yellow territory in northern Lemuria is a Lu Tzu colony.

-Pallava and Bengala are fairly strong Hindu kingdoms. Bengala relies heavily on Carthaginian backing to fend off China.

-Nihon is no longer 'closed', and really hasn't been since the early 1400s, when they began to grant sanctuary to Chinese religious refugees. The Nihonese have a powerful navy, and by 1650 have started to look towards expanding. Their first conquests were Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kurils, where they easily conquered the native Ainu peoples thanks to modern firearms.

 

[DominusNovus]

Wouldn't they be heathens, not heretics?

 

[Diamond]

Wouldn't they be heathens, not heretics?

GRRRRR....

Don't bother me with pesky details, boy!

But, yeah, they should be the Heathen Kingdoms I guess...

 

[DominusNovus]

GRRRRR....

Don't bother me with pesky details, boy!

But, yeah, they should be the Heathen Kingdoms I guess...

If I were going to be incredibly anal, I'd correct both of us, and point out that the best would probably be Infidel, since this is from an Islamic viewpoint.

 

[Diamond]

Actually, that doesn't sound half bad; it kinda rolls off the tongue little better. Maybe I will call them Infidel Kingdoms.

Although... would Chinese Muslims use a different term than infidel??

 

[MerryPrankster]

Diamond,

Perhaps "barbarian." "Foreign devil" doesn't really work, as China in this TL is part of the greater Islamic world (Dar-al-Islam) and therefore isn't going to get as xenophobic as OTL. However, I could imagine the traditional Chinese contempt for the bordering peoples could be changed to specifically describing the non-Muslim neighbors.

 

[Diamond]

Diamond,

Perhaps "barbarian." "Foreign devil" doesn't really work, as China in this TL is part of the greater Islamic world (Dar-al-Islam) and therefore isn't going to get as xenophobic as OTL. However, I could imagine the traditional Chinese contempt for the bordering peoples could be changed to specifically describing the non-Muslim neighbors.

That's fine for nations like Nihon and the Indian countries; however, the Heretic/Heathen/Infidel Kingdoms are ruled by, and have significant populations of Chinese, refugees from China's conversion to Islam in the 1400s. I don't think it'd really be feasible to call them 'Barbarian Kingdoms', hence the focus on a 'religious' name.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The Timeline is very, very good, but the chances of Heraclius changing the name of the Roman Empire to the Second Carthaginian Empire are about as great as the Iraqis renaming their country Bushistan.

 

[DominusNovus]

The Timeline is very, very good, but the chances of Heraclius changing the name of the Roman Empire to the Second Carthaginian Empire are about as great as the Iraqis renaming their country Bushistan.

That was my opinion, but I believe Diamond said that it was a gradual change over the centuries. I'd still keep the name to Roman Empire, but I'll buy it.

 

[Phaeton]

Please continue with this timeline

 

[DominusNovus]

Please continue with this timeline

Gentlemen, this is Phaeton, a man with 71 posts and counting, 75 of which are posts asking for a person to continue with their TL.

 

[bill_bruno]

Three questions

1) What effect does the Little Ice Age (from about 1200-1750) have on Slavic and Norse colonization of N. America. Historically, it made the route via Greenland unusable and contributed to the phasing out of N. American settlement. In your TL, the settlement starts earlier but without the technology to navigate a more southerly route (and I haven't seen it in your TL), how is contact w/N. America affected. With the Norse operating near land and Carthage operating in the Med, where is the incentive to develop true ocean-going vessels ahead of OTL schedule.

2) Could Carthage really exert power as far south as Ghana. Morocco was able to do it OTL in the 1590s to sack Timbuctoo but couldn't keep control across the Sahara. Wouldn't cultural and religious influence parallel Islam's OTL, with traders and missionaries working their way south, bringing Orthodoxy with them?

3) Isn't the site of Constantinople simply too strategic to be only fishing villages for four centuries?

Otherwise, great TL!!!

 

[Diamond]

1) What effect does the Little Ice Age (from about 1200-1750) have on Slavic and Norse colonization of N. America

2) Could Carthage really exert power as far south as Ghana

3) Isn't the site of Constantinople simply too strategic to be only fishing villages for four centuries?

Otherwise, great TL!!!

1) The Little Ice Age proceeded pretty much as OTL; since there were well-established colonies there before, they didn't die out, but the Norse were unable to control them as 'true' colonies... Slavonia and the little Norse settlements in Vinland (Quebec, etc) were for all intents self-ruling tho they technically were Norse vassals.

I have not gone into shipbuilding advances, but you can assume that they pretty much paralled OTL, maybe 50-75 years faster pace. Communications between Europe and the New World were much slower and riskier than OTL. Now its the 16th century, and better ships are leading to increased colonization in the Norse and Gothic colonies... which will lead to various secular and religious revolutions.

2) Carthaginian control of southwest Africa is problematic at best. One major rebellion/war occured some time back, and the Carthaginian leash has been light since then. Many towns and provinces don't even realize they are part of the Empire. On the map, it may look like a monolithic red blot, but there are internal division which have always been there and are now growing more pronounced. Civil War(s) ahead.

3) In OTL, yes the site was strategic. Here, not so much - the Western World's focus is much more on Africa and on Europe itself, specifically northeast Europe.

That's not to say its not important; the Avars, and Arab successor states in Anatolia have been feuding over the area for centuries. The conflicts have been so steady in fact, that they have not allowed one side or the other to really build up a city there again - people were afraid to settle there, and even looked on the land as 'cursed'. Now that Carthage is in control of it again, that'll change.

 

[DominusNovus]

Remember, troy occupies a similarly strategic position between the Med and Black, and its not even occupied now.

 

[Diamond]

Yet ANOTHER Map

Yes, another map to keep your interest up! (And as a cheap excuse to bump the thread while I tweak the last few details of 1500-1700.)

 

[bill_bruno]

Economic incentive?

I hate to nitpick, but what is the Carthaginian economic incentive for exploring the Western Hemisphere. The rumors of Aztec treasure cities presumably didn't reach the Gothic and Slavic colonies in the northeast. Carthage has very secure trade routes to India from here Horn of Africa base so doesn't need to consider an alternate route.

Wouldn't Carthage be more likely to follow a Portugese-style empire (bases in India and southeast Asia) rather than a Spanish-style (Columbus' voyages were based on the idea of flanking the Portugese by sailing west) one?

 

[Diamond]

RE economic incentive:

Yes, at first Europe had no idea of the potential wealth of Mexico, etc. Slavonia, Vinland, the Gothic colonies were small and poor. The initial Carthaginian efforts in the Caribbean were really only exploration and trading missions. Reason? Politics. A succession of Emperors used 'the discovery and annexation of new lands' to increase their popularity. A second reason that developed a bit later was religion - though the Orthodox Church in this TL is remarkably liberal, it still has its share of dissidents. Nova Sicilia and the other islands of the Green Sea (Caribbean) proved ideal destinations for criminals, debtors, religious refugees, etc... just like the 13 colonies in OTL.

After contact was established with the Maya, Carthage became aware of just how wealthy the area might prove to be. As the Goths became aware of it also, a natural rivalry developed. The Franks provided a third side to the territorial rivalry as they founded their colony of Gironde. This whole situation developed much slower than OTL; instead of springing up within decades, its taken almost 2 centuries.

In the later part of the 16th century, Mexica and Maya sovereignty is lost (though the Mexica will later regain independence) as European interests begin to expand into mexico itself.

 

[Tetsu]

Very interesting timeline. I must ask, though, where did you get the base Europe map? I've been in need of a good one like that.

 

[Diamond]

Very interesting timeline. I must ask, though, where did you get the base Europe map? I've been in need of a good one like that.

From Swaby's Anglo-Dutch thread. Don't remember where he got it originally, but I'm sure he credited it in his thread. I cropped it down a good bit; the original stretches all the way to Anatolia.

 

[Phaeton]

How the next Installment coming Diamond.