The Second Carthaginian Empire

What do you think of the TL?

  • Its great as is - your conclusions make sense

    Votes: 16 32.7%
  • The premise is good, but subsequent events need work

    Votes: 23 46.9%
  • It's OK

    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • It's bad AH; with a lot of reworking it could be saved, though

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • It's horrible; why did you even bother posting it?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    49

Diamond

Banned
Duncan said:
What on earth have you done with Tibet? In 800 in OTL the Tibetan Empire is still a major world power, and they've just - vanished? Been conquered by China?

Good God! Gasp! You're right! :D
Seriously, though: yeah, while transplanting the TL from Word to this board, I think some of it went AWOL, because I know I addressed that. I'll post the missing bits tonite. Short answer: yes, China conquers Tibet after a long, protracted conflict, with the various Turkic tribes swinging one way, then the other, but eventually coming down on China's side.

Sorry about the confusion!!
 

Diamond

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
Transplant the Serb-type stuff into North Africa, replace Tsar Lazar with a Donatist martyr (perhaps one killed just before the Emperors embrace Donatism) and have the Emperors indulging in it and that'd certainly be fun. The Donatists believed in the permanent de-frocking of clergymen who gave in under persecution, so that could lead to the booting of a lot of clergymen in the official Roman church. A mini-Reformation of sorts...the bootlicking types will be gone.
That is most likely the way I'll go.

Matt Quinn said:
Diamond, thanks for using some of my ideas. I hope they were helpful.
EXTREMELY helpful. I'm not particularly strong with a lot of elements of this period, so all the suggestions are much appreciated.

Matt Quinn said:
One caveat...the Byzantines called themselves Romans; the Byzantine bit comes from later historians. I think that the Empire would still be "Roman"; perhaps later historians will call it Carthaginian, Romano-Carthaginian, or even Tunisian.
I knew that (r.e. the later renaming). Consider the name change to be a bureaucratic 'on paper only' thing at first, which doesn't really catch on till a couple centuries later. Most folks still call it the Roman empire till then.

Matt Quinn said:
I was wondering about what happened to Byzantine territories in Europe (the Balkans and all). It seems some fell to the Persians; what about the Avars? I think they're still around at this point. What happens to the "remnants" in 800 AD? Also, with the seat of the Orthodox Church (if it can be called that at this point) in North Africa, how does Balkan religion develop? Are they Christians (if so, what kind), Muslims (if so, what kind), Bogomils, or something else entirely?
In the decade after the move to Carthage, just about all Byz lands in the Balkans are overrun by the Avars and the first Bulgar tribes. As the Persians are pushed back by the Arabs, they establish little enclaves in the Carpathians, etc, which the Arabs don't feel its worthwhile to smash. They are eventually absorbed by the Avars, but leave a lot of their culture behind, along with Zoroastrianism, which blends with native beliefs to become a major religion in the region. This comes into conflict with the Frankic Church (OTL RCC) as the Franks help establish the Kingdom of Avaria as a buffer state against the Magyars and the more barbaric peoples moving in from the east.

Matt Quinn said:
From the later portions of your TL, I see the Franks becoming a "Great Power" and the Carthaginians (easier on the tongue than North African Romans) allying with the Lombards and Venetians to deal with them. Since there's a Venetian Republic, I assume the Lombards don't unify Italy. How does Italy go with the Byzantines simply giving up on it and the Franks too weak to make difficulties? Is the Pope a Lombard puppet?
You hit the nail right on the head! I'll post the years 800-1000 tonite, and you can see what you think of things.

Matt Quinn said:
Good job overall.
Thanks! I appreciate it.
 

Diamond

Banned
Sean Swaby said:
So that might need to be changed somewhat. Maybe your Second Carthaginian Empire signs an alliance or trade treaty or something in place of helping to establish Ghana. Or maybe you could also have them establish some puppet/allied kingdom near to Ghana.

Thanks, Sean, I actually think I'll incorporate both your suggestions, as they're both logical ideas and not mutually exclusive.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Literacy in this region is exclusively in Latin during this time. Consequently, it is likely that it would remain the official language, even if the Byzantine church comes to roost in Carthage. This might cause some tension with the groups speaking various Berber dialects and Punic, which are no longer written, and spoken only in the countryside (St. Augustine commented that, in some dioceses, Punic was more important than Latin).

On the basis of the ostraca from Bu Ngem, IIRC, the North African dialects of Latin were developing away from the rest of Romance but in the same general direction as sa lemba sardu - Sardinian. That is to say, the default form of the noun was the old Latin nominative, unlike the other Romance languages (which adopted the accusative for this purpose), and a definite article was innovated from ipse (unlike the rest of Romance, which used ille). Also, it is likely that all of the old vowels would survive (although Augustus tells us that African speakers of Latin do not distinguish between long and short vowels), as would the old Perfect tense, which was lost in most of the Romance languages.

Because of the multilingual situation, and the fact that the Church has no particular attachment to Latin, a vernacular literature might develop earlier in this TL - and with it, all of the fruits (higher literacy, but also language-based nationalism). Berber and Punic might be written in Roman script (as they occasionally were, in those days) or they might adapt a local script like tifinagh for their purposes.
 
The Danes Invade England, 1085

According to "London" by Edward Rutherfurd, a great Danish expedition to unseat William the Conqueror, whose rule was still unstable (revolts every few years), was prepared in 1085 AD. A huge fleet was assembled under the command of a king named Canute (not THE Canute, but someone with the same name). However, there was some kind of internal dispute, the whole thing collapsed, and Canute was assassinated the next year.

According to Rutherfurd, this expedition might "have meant the end of Norman rule in England." Is there anyone here with a better knowledge of the period than me who can judge the likelihood of this expedition's success or failure? In either case, what would the effects be. The expulsion of the Normans from England would probably mean no 100 Years War, as the whole reason the war occurred was the dynastic difficulties of the King of England being a King (England) and a vassal (Normandy).

We're going through the "Anglo-Saxon thread" that spun off of the survival of the Celtic rite of Christianity and the defeat of William; here's another take on the same time period/region.

Any thoughts?
 
Shoot! I meant to post that as a new thread.

Sorry...

Now, how would Zoroastrianism interact with Christianity (and presumably the pagan faiths of the Bulgars and Avars) to form a Balkan syncretic faith? Will the Franks eventually bring it back into the Christian fold and you'll end up with a sort of Persianified Christianity in the Balkans? Or will it evolve into its own distinct religion?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
Now, how would Zoroastrianism interact with Christianity (and presumably the pagan faiths of the Bulgars and Avars) to form a Balkan syncretic faith? Will the Franks eventually bring it back into the Christian fold and you'll end up with a sort of Persianified Christianity in the Balkans? Or will it evolve into its own distinct religion?

One way or another, this, IMO, would resemble Armenian Christianity very much - iconoclasm, lots of light imagery, epic poetry, and maybe even an underlying Manichaean substrate influence - very much, in fact, like the Bogomils in OTL.
 

Diamond

Banned
Part Two

The Reclaiming of Italia, the Magyar Invasion, and the Slavic Exile: 800-1000

800: Irish travelers reach Iceland.
801: Successful Carthaginian landings in Italy at Salerno, Gaeta.
802: Visigoths join Grand Alliance. Germanic tribal laws codified by order of Charlemagne. Armano of Benevento becomes the last Italian Pope, Lucian I.
803: Carthaginians in control of most of southern Italy.
804: Battle of Assisi: Frankic sovereign Charlemagne slain by Egyptian crossbowmen. Succeeded as King of Frankia by his son, Louis I, called the Pious. Magdeburg becomes important trade center at Slav frontier.
805: City of Rome falls to the Carthaginian Empire. Pope Honorius II exiled to Frankia. Treaty of Pavia ends the war between Carthage and the Franks. Lombardy, Venice, Carinthia, Ravenna guaranteed independence. Visigoths gain Frankic Mediterranean coast, shutting the Franks out. Carthage gains Rome, Spoleto, and the rest of southern Italy.
806: Witteric II, King of the Visigoths, converts to Orthodox Christianity.
810: By about this time, the last Persian enclaves in the Balkans are disappearing, absorbed by the Avars and Bulgars. The Avarian Church, a fusion of Zoroastrianism and pagan beliefs, is established around this time.
811: Lombardy becomes a Carthaginian client-state.
812: Breton revolts crushed by Frankic armies. Khazars convert to Islam.
813: School of Astronomy established at Baghdad.
814: Frankia props up tottering Mercian kingdom in Britain. Arabs take over Indian numerals, including zero.
815: First Magyar invasions across the Carpathian Mts. into Bulgar and Avar lands.
817: Louis I of Frankia establishes laws of succession – throne will pass to his son Lothar upon Louis’ death.
819: Carthaginian Empire recognizes independence of Venice.
820: Louis I grants the Pope estates in Mainz; Papacy officially instated there.
825: Most of the North African desert tribes converted to Greek Orthodox Church. Building of the Doge’s Palace in Venice begins.
826: Christianity begins to spread through Scandinavia.
827: Kingdom of Bulgarica founded under Taskarag I.
827-829: First Italian War: Lombard independence movement, with support from Avars. The Lombards are crushed and a cousin of Carthaginian Emperor Theodorus is named King of Lombardy.
828: War between the Arabs and the Pechenegs, a tribe north of the Crimea; Pechenegs destroyed as a cohesive people – survivors merge with Bulgars and Avars to the west.
834: Beginning of Danish raids on Britain.
836: Uighurs rebel against Chinese rule.
838: Mercia conquers Northumberland. Mercia now the strongest kingdom in Britain – owing nominal allegiance to Frankia.
840: Lothar I ascends Frankic throne upon the death of his father, Louis I. Uprisings by Lothar’s brothers Louis and Charles are crushed; Louis executed, Charles flees to Slavic lands. Danish settlers found Dublin and Limerick.
841: Uighurs gain independence from China; formation of Uighuristan.
843: First patents of nobility awarded to West African chieftains by Carthaginian Emperor, strengthening ties between the two regions.
844: Going on tales told by Irish monks, Norsemen discover Iceland.
845: Norse raiders destroy Hamburg and penetrate into German lands. Paper money in China leads to inflation and state bankruptcy. Beginning of Magyar raids into Avar and Bulgar lands; with the Pechenegs destroyed almost 20 years earlier, there is no reason for the Magyars to migrate en masse into Europe – instead they begin to build outposts surrounded by massive earthen embankments, from which they mount large-scale raids into Europe as far west as the city of Praha, inside Frankia’s borders. Over the next half century, these forts grow into towns, beginning the transition of the Magyars from steppe nomads into a settled, city-building people.
846: Charles, brother of King Lothar of Frankia, leads an army composed mainly of Poles and Magyar mercenaries against towns throughout Franconia and Bavaria.
848: After two years of civil war, Charles’ army is crushed at the battle of Riade, south of Magdeburg.
850: Frankia signs treaty of alliance with Avars, supplies men and arms to establish an Avar buffer state. Coffee first discovered in Arabia. Groups of Jews first settle in German lands and begin to develop Yiddish. Rurik, a Norseman, becomes ruler of Kiev; Norse begin to trade with the Caliphate and the Khazars. The Catholic Church first begun to be called ‘Frankic’ Church.
851-857: Second Italian War: Lombardy regains independence; Carthaginians driven out of Italy; Rome becomes Lombard capital.
856: Frankic coastal towns and cities sacked by Norsemen; prevented from raiding the interior by strong defensive works along major rivers.
858: Kingdom of Avaria founded under Ghiseric I.
862: Novgorod founded.
869: Irish monks reach Greenland.
872: Last major Magyar campaign into Avar lands.
879: Nepal gains independence from China.
880-890: The Magyars mount extensive raids into Bohemia and the lands around the Oder and Vistula Rivers, driving the Slavic tribes westward. Their lands steadily shrinking, the Slavs appeal to Frankia for permission to settle in the west, permission which is denied them, for the most part; Frankia’s nobility have not forgotten the treachery of the Poles during Charles’ uprising some 40 years earlier. Many Slavs resettle in Mercia and Norway, others migrate south to Lombardy.
888: Kiev, Novgorod, other cities, fall to Magyars.
891-925: War between Carthaginian Empire and Abbasid Caliphate, instigated by an attempted Arab invasion of Cyprus and Crete. The war is for the most part inconclusive – neither side is able to gain a significant advantage; Cyprus and the Levant are devastated, passing from Arab to Carthaginian control and back no less than four times before ending up in Arab possession.
895: Formation of Mazovia by Slavs, Balts, refugees from Rus.
900: Largest cities in the Western World: Carthage, Alexandria, Baghdad, Aachen. Castles become the seats of European nobility. Islam gaining in popularity among Magyars.
910: Ascension of King Geoffrey I to Frankic throne.
911: Frankic invasion of northern Italy – halted at Pisa; Pavia, Milan, other northern cities brought under Frankic ‘protection’.
914: Venice annexed by Frankia.
918: The Slavic chieftain Zedeslav reaches an agreement with King Svein of Norway whereby Slavic settlement will be allowed in Iceland.
921: Slavic settlements in Iceland.
937: Denmark unified with Norway. Founding of University of Carthage.
940: Al’Qalim, the Abbasid Caliph, poisoned. His eldest son Al’Zeher rules for four months before he too is killed. The Caliphate disintegrates in civil war as Al’Qalim’s remaining three sons fight amongst themselves.
949: Hagrad II becomes first Christian king of Norway.
950: Carthage, taking advantage of the chaos enveloping the Caliphate, invades the Levant; Damascus, Jerusalem, and Tripoli fall in less than three months. Carthage influences or directly controls most of Africa above the Congo basin.
959: Minor Slavic outposts in Greenland established.
960: Beginning of decline of Tang dynasty in China.
964: A Slavic sea-captain accidentally discovers North America after being blown off course in a storm. He explores the coast of OTL Labrador and Newfoundland for several weeks.
969: The Arab civil war ends with the establishment of three independent Caliphates stretching from the Tigris River to southern Arabia. Dozens of Arabic splinter states control Anatolia, while two good-sized emirates control the lands to the east.
970: Founding of University of Heracliopolis.
974: Earliest authenticated earthquake in Mercia.
992: First Slavic settlements established in North America.
993: First canonization of saints in Frankic Church.
998: Kaganate of Magyaria established – governed from the capital, Kiev, Magyaria encompasses most of eastern and north-central Europe, including all of what was once Kievan Rus. Kagan Bela I rules a decentralized realm of competing chieftains who intrigue against each other perhaps even more than they do against the Franks.
1000: Widespread fear of the End of the World and the Last Judgment. Chinese perfect gunpowder. First known exchanges sanctioned by the Emperor between Carthaginian and Arab physicians. High point of Mayan civilization in Yucatan peninsula. Christianity reaches Iceland and Greenland.
 

Diamond

Banned
Map - 1000 AD

Forgot to tack the map onto the last post...

AltWorld13.3(1000).GIF
 

Diamond

Banned
And another map...

Here's a map of major religions in Europe, circa 1100 AD.

Notes:
1) The Avarian Church is a fusion of pagan Avar/Bulgar beliefs and Zoroastrianism.
2) Major Jewish populations are found in:
--Egypt
--Greece
--Southern Italy and Sicily
--North Africa

Her.Rel.1100.GIF
 
missed it

Sorry I missed it, ?When did the Carthaginans conquer Axum [Ethiopia] And what effect is their church having in the Empire?
 

Diamond

Banned
AAARRRGGH!

DuQuense said:
Sorry I missed it, ?When did the Carthaginans conquer Axum [Ethiopia] And what effect is their church having in the Empire?

Dammit! Stuff keeps disappearing into the aether...

840: Civil strife in Axum, southern Egypt, and other lands bordering the Red Sea due to turmoil between native Christians, 'official' Church representatives, and Islamic converts.

851: After more than a decade of unrest in the southeast, Emperor Valentinius II decides to officially annex Makkura, Axum, and Alwa. Troops are sent in to quell religious rebellions, which keep a lid on things, but serve to deepen the rift between the Carthaginian Church and the provincial churchs.
Note: This area will, in later times, develop into the kind of religious crazyquilt that the Balkans became in OTL, with similar results...

868: With a larger presence along the Red Sea, Carthage establishes small trading colonies in OTL Zanzibar as an off-shoot. Madagascar is discovered in 870 and its coasts are mapped.
 
excellent work Diamond, although I am wondering what ever happened to the revision of the Ghana section (alliance with Ghana, establishment of a nearby puppet state...)
 
Excellent job so far. A Slavic New world? Wow. Are the Slavs Christians at this point? If not, how will the Slavic pagan faiths mesh with the Indian religions?

Have the Lombards unified Italy?
 

Diamond

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
A Slavic New world?
Now, don't get all excited. :) The settlements in Labrador are almost completely absorbed into the native populations by 1200, but they do serve to introduce iron-working, horses, and disease to northeastern N.America.

The next wave of exploration is fairly soon after that, though, around 1350.
Matt Quinn said:
Are the Slavs Christians at this point? If not, how will the Slavic pagan faiths mesh with the Indian religions?
I'd say the Christian/Pagan mix among the Slavs is about 1/3 - 2/3. Probably more of them would've converted had the Franks been more willing to drive out the Magyars...
Matt Quinn said:
Have the Lombards unified Italy?
There is a united kingdom of Lombardy, but it really wasn't the Lombards themselves that united it - it was more a Carthaginian decision, hoping to put a stronger friendly power between their holdings in Naples, and the Franks.

Sean Swaby said:
what ever happened to the revision of the Ghana section
You can chalk that up to sheer laziness. :) I've fixed it but didn't get around to posting it.
 

Diamond

Banned
OK. This post started out as a brief overview of all that's happened since 619. As you'll see, 'brief' died a quick death. What's posted below is basically everything from 619 to approximately 700 AD.

So my question to you guys is: is the timeline easier to digest like this, in a narrative form, or should I continue doing a year-by-year format? If you like the narrative style, I'll continue posting that way, picking up with 700 AD and going on from there.

*******************************************

Four Hundred Years of Change: An Update

In the year 619 AD, the Eastern Roman Emperor, Heraclius, made the momentous decision to move the seat of Empire from Constantinople to the ancient city of Carthage, in his home province of North Africa. Despite the pleas of the Patriarch of the Church, and the skepticism and outright anger of the nobility, Heraclius would not be dissuaded. No one now can say whether the move was precipitated by fear or an uncommon insight into the developing future, but the Emperor’s apparent wisdom was proven when the Sassanid Persians overran all of Anatolia and took possession of Constantinople late the next year.

Thousands upon thousands of dispossessed Romans, noble and commoner alike, fled the Persian armies, some bound for Greece, some for Crete and Cyprus, but most for Egypt and Carthage. The influx threw many of the staid social institutions of the time into chaos; many felt the end of the world was near. Many of the traditional boundaries between rich and poor were laid low as the once-wealthy refugees were forced to work to survive, and the local merchants and farmers made fortunes as the dispossessed sold their gems and silverware for food and shelter.

During this time, Heraclius survived four known assassination attempts, one led by an army regiment commanded by the young son of a noble house who had lost everything but their lives during the ravaging of Constantinople. And these were only the nearly successful attempts – the Emperor’s popularity was at an all-time low as discontent and rebellion stalked North Africa from Carthage to Alexandria.

The army was the least affected by the upheavals; despite a loss of morale after the abandonment of half the Empire to the Persians, the soldiers were fed and paid and had warm barracks to sleep in – more than could be said for many others. After the scattered Persian forces in Egypt were driven out in 626, Heraclius gambled on a major campaign to throw the Persians out of the Sinai and the Levant, securing his eastern borders. The gamble was successful; in 628 the Treaty of Palmyra was signed, signaling peace between the two war-weary Empires.

Despite their territorial losses, the Romans (or Carthaginians, as Heraclius now preferred his people to be called) were in a better position than their rivals. Persia, overextended and facing serious incursions from the barbaric Avars, was now vulnerable to a new foe: the Arab people, invigorated and flush with the joy of a new religion – Islam. Probing raids by the Arabs up and down the Persian frontier assured the desert warriors that the Sassanids were easy pickings.

Heraclius’ domains were not exempt from Arab-backed revolts either, and it was this that prompted the Emperor to meet with the Arab leader Abu Bakr in the city of Damascus in the summer of the year 633. After a month-long conference from which both parties threatened to walk more than once, it was decided that the Empire would cede all lands east of the Sinai to the Arabs in return for a promise of non-interference with the rest of the Empire.

The Arabs, balked for the present in their designs on Africa, instead turned toward Persia. Weakened and under poor leadership, the Persians nevertheless managed to stave off the Arabs for thirteen years. In 648 the Persians were finally crushed, and Constantinople fell once more – this time it was burned to the ground and only fishing villages existed there for the next four centuries. Persian refugees fled into the Balkans, where they carved out small enclaves in remote valleys and mountain ranges, pollinating the Avars with their ancient culture - and with Zoroastrianism.

The Carthaginians, meanwhile had not been idle. Three things guaranteed their continuing survival and indeed, prosperity. One: the army undertook much-needed reforms; the officer corps was streamlined – steps were taken to at least partially eliminate the buying of commissions by the wealthy, which had seriously weakened the army’s effectiveness. The army’s structure was altered as well; gone were the days of heavy armored cavalry and static troop formations. Something much more mobile and speedy was needed in the deserts of Africa. Learning from the Berber tribes which now constituted a significant portion of the population, highly mobile, lightly-armored horse troops were introduced, capable of striking out of nowhere and fading back into the deserts.

Two: Seeking to end the social upheavals which were wreaking havoc on the economy and spiritual life of the Empire, the leaders of the Church met in Carthage in 636 in a great Synod, to explore ways by which the many and diverse Christian sects of North Africa might once more be folded into the Church.

And three: treaties of friendship and trade were signed with the Visigoths of Hispania, securing the Empire’s western borders and gaining them a powerful new ally. As a show of good faith, the remaining Imperial lands in southern Hispania, taken by Justinian in 554, were ceded back to the Visigoths.

Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, momentous events were occurring. The Tang of China, seeking to expand their borders to the west, had taken on the might of the Tibetan Empire. For thirty long years the two empires struggled against each other; both courted the steppe tribes to the north, and when one of the most wily and powerful, the Uighurs, came down firmly on the side of the Chinese, it was only a matter of time before Tibet crumbled.

In the northern islands of Britain, King Oswiu of Northumbria decided the future of religion in the isles when he decided in favor of the Roman ritual over its Celtic competitor. To the south, in the lands of the Franks, the sovereign Childeric had died, leaving his lands embroiled in civil war and anarchy.

In the wild lands beyond Greece and Anatolia, in what, long years before had been provinces of the Eastern Roman Empire, new barbarian tribes were settling. The Avars held pride of place – they were the strongest militarily, and their trade with the Serbs, Croats, and even the Franks and Lombards of Italy served to keep them wealthy. But now the Bulgars along the Danube began to present a threat, and the two peoples engaged in war after war for supremacy. And to the east, there were other tribes, displaced by the mighty conflict between China and Tibet – in their thousands, they began to move steadily westward. East of the Black Sea, the Khazars held sway, and without the threat of Roman Constantinople, they were converted to Islam scarcely half a century after the Arbas boiled out of the deserts.
 
Diamond,

Very interesting and concise sum-up of the entire TL. Are you going to do the same thing for the second part? And where do we go from there?

I see that Islam is becoming popular among the Magyars. Is Christianity spreading among them too, as well as the Avar Zoroastrian-pagan faith? Will one faith eventually become dominant among the Magyars, or will they end up evenly divided. Religious differences could cause disorder within the Magyar Kaganate, or the Kagan could come up with some kind of pan-religious "Magyar identity," spurring nationalism a bit early.

It seems like this TL compensates Islam for the non-possession of North Africa by giving them more of Europe. Plus, more nomadic Eastern tribes are beginning to roll west, fleeing the upheaval in Tibet. Things could get VERY interesting for the Khazars, Magyars, and Bulgars in the next few years.
 
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