The Second Carthaginian Empire

What do you think of the TL?

  • Its great as is - your conclusions make sense

    Votes: 16 32.7%
  • The premise is good, but subsequent events need work

    Votes: 23 46.9%
  • It's OK

    Votes: 6 12.2%
  • It's bad AH; with a lot of reworking it could be saved, though

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • It's horrible; why did you even bother posting it?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    49

Diamond

Banned
RULERS OF THE SECOND CARTHAGINIAN EMPIRE: 610-1025

Heraclian Dynasty

610-644: Heraclius I
644-665: Constans II
665-671: Valentinius
671-674: Romana (sister of Valentinius; ruled as regent for her son, Heraclius II)
674-699: Heraclius II
699: Leo III
699-712: Konrad
712-733: Zoe (Blessed of God; first acknowledged Empress)
733-739: Michael (the Fat)
739-787: Konrad II
787-798: Tiberius III

Egyptian Dynasty

798-810: Amenos (the Egyptian)
810-820: Leo IV

Theodoran Dynasty

820-824: Theodorus
824-830: Theodora
844-879: Valentinius II
879-880: Xenos
880-894: Phocastus (the Pious)
894-936: Michael II
936-941: Basil I (deposed)
941-943: Leo V
943-950: Basil I (restored)

Athenian Dynasty

950-969: Demetrios I
969-991: Michael III
991-1000: Zoe II
1000-1025: Michael IV
 

Diamond

Banned
RULERS OF VISIGOTHICA: 600-1006

House of Alaric

601-603: Liuva II
603-610: Witteric
610-612: Gundemar
612-621: Sisebut
621: Reccared II
621-631: Suinthila (deposed)
631-636: Sisenand
636-639: Chintila
639-658: Tulga
658-670: Gatharic
670-672: Hurendemar
672: Sendemur (deposed)
672-696: Blagus (the Brutal)
696-721: Maseric (the Merciful)
721-728: Hurendemar II
728-745: Reccared III

House of Raderic

745-773: Raderic
773-802: Hurendemar III
802-820: Witteric II
820-867: Sisnero (the Long-Lived)
867-868: Clovaila (daughter of Sisnero; deposed)

Braga Dynasty

868-874: Tulga II
874-889: Reccared IV
889-892: Caldegar
892-928: Ambregar

House of Raderic

928-932: Witteric III (grandson of Sisnero)

Tarraco Dynasty

932-951: Maseric II
951-959: Gatheric II
959-990: Reccared IV
990-1006:Bornogus

NOTES

-As may have been noticed, events in the Visigothic Kingdom thus far have been barely touched on. This is mainly because I don't know much about them and have been researching. Some preliminary stuff:

-In 672, King Sendemur, a weak and ineffectual ruler, was deposed by his brother Blagus, called the Brutal. Blagus took advantage of the chaos in Frankia following the death of Childeric II to expand Visigothic control into Provence and southern Aquitaine. While not quite daring to end the alliance with Carthage, Blagus was openly disdainful of the 'weak Africans'. Blagus was responsible for numerous atrocities, including the beheading and burning of thousands of Frankic peasants.

-In 696, Blagus' son Maseric became king. He reversed most of his father's draconian policies, and renewed the treaties of friendship and alliance with Carthage. Maseric encouraged sizable numbers of Jews to settle in the north of the peninsula, and north of the Pyrenees.

-In 867, the longest-reigning Visigothic king, Sisnero, died at the age of 82. His 60 year old daughter Clovaila, an unmarried spinster and his only surviving child, ruled for 2 years before being overthrown by Tulga of Braga, Duke of the former Suevi provinces in the northwest. Tulga's dynasty ruled for 60 years.

-It was overthrown in 928 by Witteric III, grandson of Sisnero, who was in turn deposed (and executed) after 5 years of disastrous rule.
 

Diamond

Banned
Here's a little bit more detailed map showing Europe and North Africa in 1000 AD:

Her.Eu1.1.JPG
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Not to nitpick, but why are they called the Lombards if their capital is in Rome and their current territory doesn't include an inch of OTL Lombardy? Are these Germanic Langobards who just happened to settle down further south in the ATL?
 
Leo,

Didn't the name "Lombardy" for northern Italy come from the fact that the Lombards settled in Northern Italy? Besides, the Lombards could have settled in Northern Italy and been driven out by the Franks.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Matt Quinn said:
Leo,

Didn't the name "Lombardy" for northern Italy come from the fact that the Lombards settled in Northern Italy? Besides, the Lombards could have settled in Northern Italy and been driven out by the Franks.
That's what I meant by the Germanic Langobards. I was wondering how it transpired that the Langobards established their state further south.

IIRC, there are still some villages in northern Italy (Veneto and Lombardia) where a rather odd dialect of German, unintelligible with other dialects, is spoken; some people posit that these are the descendants of the Lombards, while others suggest that they are actually speaking a periferal variety of Bavarian. I'm not sure where the scientific discussion of these dialects ended up (perhaps Carlton knows?).

Mind you, I'm not refering to the German inhabitants of Trentino-Alto Adige, of course.
 

Diamond

Banned
Most of northern Italy was taken by the Franks in the 800s, while Carthage was distracted by events in the Caliphate. Carthage had helped to unify the Lombard states earlier into a cohesive kingdom which covered basically all of Italy from Naples north to the Alps, as a move to create another semi-strong state as leverage against the Franks.

A series of bad Carthaginian Emperors resulted in Lombardy (governed from Ravenna) becoming a puppet state ruled by a cousin of the Emperor. Two wars in the late 9th century (after northern Lombardy was annexed by Frankia) against Carthage drove out the Emperor's armies but left Lombardy an impoverished garrison state fighting for survival against Carthage and Frankia. They may not last until 1200; I'm not sure yet.

So yes, 'Lombardy' did start out in the north, but has migrated southward so to speak in this TL.
 

Diamond

Banned
I thought I'd take a page from Dominus' playbook and just give you an update on (roughly) where things will be going for the next 3 centuries or so:

-Frankia and Carthage become the two great rivals and major powers in the west. Most other European powers are puppets or client states of the two except for:

-Visigothica will remain the only large, moderately-powerful independent state in the region. They act as a buffer-state between the Franks and Carthaginians. After being extensively raided by the Northmen in the 1100s, they develop an interest in the north, and eventually conquer a large chunk of southern Ireland as a base from which to launch expeditions to Hesperia/Vinland, following the Slavic and Norse pioneers.

-The Mongols will arrive on schedule, about 1200 or so. They will be led by a different Khan, because I can't really justify Genghis being born 600 years after the POD. Major divergence: The Mongols bring the Black Plague with them, and it devastates Europe a century earlier than OTL.

-The Three Caliphates, unable to expand into Africa and Europe, instead establish a major presence in northern India, and later Tibet (about 1200), and western China.

-China pulls herself together under a new, militant dynasty. Under this dynasty Islam finds popularity but is far from displacing the older religions.

-The Magyars begin to convert to Islam more rapidly, but it will be a schismatic version. I didn't really adress it in the TL, but there was no Sunni/Shiite split; this will work the same way - ie, Magyar Islam and 'True' Islam.

*******************************

OK, now some questions:

1)Names: Does anyone have a problem with 'Visigothica' for the Iberian peninsula? Do you have a more plausible suggestion that sounds as cool?
1a)Can anyone give me some halfway-plausible sounding Norse and/or Slavic names for North America?

2)What should I do with Central Africa? I'm hesitant to have Carthage expand any further south and am thinking of having Islam start filtering in from the Red Sea region starting around 1300.

3)Obviously, there is no '1066' in this TL, but the Norse, I think, will still be interested in some or all of Mercia. Frankia until now has kept them out, but I'm thinking by about 1150-1200, as Frankia's attention turns more and more to the south and east, the northmen might try an invasion. Thoughts?
 
Diamond said:
1)Names:
1a)Can anyone give me some halfway-plausible sounding Norse and/or Slavic names for North America?

Well, as for a Norse name, you could always call it Vinland. I would.
 
Diamond said:
1)Names: Does anyone have a problem with 'Visigothica' for the Iberian peninsula? Do you have a more plausible suggestion that sounds as cool?
Perhaps just Gothica. Either works.
 

Diamond

Banned
Ah, dammit. Now I'll have to repost everything that was lost. **sigh**
Oh well; I guess its like a free do-over for some screw ups I made, eh? :)
 

Diamond

Banned
OK, here's Part 3, Take Two:

The New World and the Plague Years: 1001-1300

1001: Mercian inventors experiment with ways to use kites as signaling devices and message carriers. Beginning of trade between Slavic settlements in Vinland and the Scralinga (native peoples).
1007: Timbuctu founded (Ghana).
1015: The Visigoths are commonly referred to simply as ‘Goths’ by this time; their nation is Gothica.
1022: Death of the last Tang Emperor, Wen Ti; the empire splits into six separate states – one ruled by Wen Ti’s brother, one by his son, the others by various military factions.
1024: Tibet independent of Chinese rule.
1025: Islam begins to gain many converts among the southern Magyars.
1029: Official establishment of Slavonia, the most prosperous of the Slavic settlements in Vinland (along OTL St. Lawrence River valley). Though officially a Norwegian colony, the Slavs enjoy self-government, for all intents and purposes, from the inception of the colony. For months at a time, the only Norwegian officials seen by the Slavic pioneers are a few soldiers and the odd tax-collector.
1030: After years of internal decay and attacks from southern Indian states, the kingdom of Kanauj disintegrates upon the death of Harsha V.
1032: Town of Insdern (OTL Vienna) founded to support garrisons guarding the Frankic frontier with Avaria and Magyaria.
1036: Mercian kite messaging network established as a means to combat increasing Norse and Danish coastal raids; the kites allow the quick relaying of messages across large distances, allowing Mercian units to intercept landing parties before they get very far inland.
1039: ‘Stolen Tomahawk War’ in Slavonia – a Slavic trading outfit is accused of selling a load of new steel tomahawks to an Iriki band, then ambushing them and taking back the merchandise. The brief war the incident fosters is resolved inconclusively, and sows distrust between Slavs and Scralinga which takes years to recede.
1050: Baltic Sea is proven to have no eastern outlet to the ocean, as had been previously believed. Astrolabes first used in Europe.
1060: Kagan Mauvili codifies Magyarian laws.
1061: Avarian spies steal the secret of Egyptian Fire from the Carthaginians. Its manufacture is strictly controlled by the Avarian Church, who view it as a holy weapon.
1068: Major famines and drought wrack Ghana and the southwestern reaches of the Carthaginian Empire; the peasant general Abi Biabetu leads a rebel army which captures Kaedi, the capital of Ghana.
1069: King Rwumdi of Ghana and his family executed by Biabetu; after his forces defeat a Carthaginian army in March, Carthage sends envoys to discuss peace; by the end of the year, Biabetu is installed as King in Kaedi; the Carthaginian support of the usurper alienates many Ghanans as well as several of the native governors along the coast to the south.
1070: Hsien Dynasty founded in northern China (ruling from Kaifeng), controlling the lands around the Ji (Yellow) River and into Liao in the north.
1072: Limited naval conflicts between Frankia and Carthage over fishing rights around Corsica.
1075: Several years of bad harvests and harsh winters wrack the Slavic settlements in (OTL) Labrador; more than 50% of the population dies; most of the rest resettle in Slavonia. Civil war in Ghana and the southwestern reaches of the Carthaginian Empire.
1077: The Ghanan War ends as Carthage brutally crushes royalist armies which sought to overthrow King Biabetu; Biabetu himself died during the conflict, and as a compromise a cousin of the late king Rwumdi is installed in Kaedi. Conflict to the south continues for another eight months as various factions flee to sanctuary among the coastal provinces, where the local governors are reluctant to surrender them, doing so only under threat of force from Carthage.
1080: Emperor Demetrios II imposes higher taxes on the southwestern provinces; as expected, the southerners are outraged, but have little recourse.
1083: The Luong, ruling from Hangzhou, unite southern China under their rule.
1085: First table of positions of the stars compiled at the University of Heracliopolis.
1090: Gondolas begin to see common usage in Venice. The first water-clocks are constructed in China.
1091-1093: War between Carthage and Avaria over territories in Macedonia; Avarian forces, using Egyptian fire adapted to army tactics (such as ‘fire lines’ filled with the stuff, and catapults flinging it) inflict devastating losses on Carthage, but superior Carthaginian tactics and supply lines eventually triumph over Avaria. Avaria is forced to give up much of its territory in Macedonia and Epirus.
1098-1099: The Grain Plague ravages western and northern Africa; spread by insects which inhabit grain stores and silos, the Plague kills many thousands of people from Mauretania to Egypt.
1100: Around this time, the Frankic Church begins to make inroads in converting the Magyars, mainly in the north.
1101: Martinus I, third son of Demetrios II, becomes Carthaginian Emperor. His two elder brothers died during the Grain Plagues.
1103: Renewed unrest in Ghana and the south, sparked by economic upheaval resulting from the Grain Plague. Emperor Martinus sends the great general Parmenos, hero of the Avarian War, to crush the revolts.
1110: Islam begins to replace Indian religions; the various fragmented successor states of the kingdom of Kanauj begin to become embroiled in religious conflicts.
1120: As new and strange trade goods begin to make their way from Vinland to Europe, the Norse begin to take more interest in their colonies, encouraging commerce and settlement as well as establishing garrisons to protect merchants in Slavonia and the other, minor, colonies to the east and north.
1125: Norse and Danish raids on northwest Frankia and down into Gothica.
1136-1138: Further Norse raids on Frankia and Gothica; Gothic king Jormongil begins to take an interest in the North, and in Vinland.
1140: Introduction of Vietnamese strains of rice into China make double cropping possible.
1145: King Eyvak of Norway funds renewed colonization efforts in Vinland; several towns abandoned during the die-offs of 1075 are re-inhabited, and several new towns are founded, mainly around the site of OTL Sept-Iles, Quebec, and on the island of Karolmark (OTL Newfoundland). In addition, two monasteries are founded on the island of St. Marik (OTL Ile D’anticosti).
1148: Recent improvements in Gothic ships allow the Goths to repel renewed Norse raids, and to take the fight into Norse waters for the first time.
1150: Gothic fleet lands in southern Ireland, where they occupy several Norse villages.
1152: Battle of Scilly: Gothic navy destroys a major Norse fleet off the coast of Mercia; Mercian ships aid the Goths; large kites are used by Mercians to drop incendiaries on Norse ships.
1155: Commercial treaties between Frankia and Magyaria.
1159: Goths in control of much of southeastern Ireland.
1161: Attempted Norse invasion of Mercia repelled with Gothic and Frankic aid.
1166: Burkowa of Kiev describes his ‘Five Tenets’ of Islam – radical departures from traditional Islam designed to appeal to Magyar, Finn, and Slavic culture; Burkowa is condemned by traditionalists in the Caliphates, but his Tenets outlive him – Burkowan Islam is a viable sect by 1200.
1168: In the Americas, the Toltec Empire falls apart into dozens of feuding city-states after the capital city of Tula is sacked by an enemy coalition, composed primarily of Mayan forces.
1170: Hansic of Cartagena explores the coast of OTL New England for Gothica.
1189: Gothic settlement of Vitania (OTL Portland, Maine) founded.
1190: First recorded use of indigo in western Europe for dyeing purposes.
1195: Kongo River first explored by Carthaginians.
1200: Alcohol is being used for medical purposes. Islam becomes popular in Tibet. At about this time, the Anahuaca people (Aztecs), a farming people from the west, settle in the Valley of Mexico.
1202: Owydd Hayward becomes Pope Felix VI (the first Mercian Pope).
1210-1220: Plague ravages China; total fatalities are upwards of 45 % of the population.
1211: Gothic colony of Morveca founded (roughly OTL New England).
1215: Khitan tribes (OTL Mongols) united under Sagadei.
1218: Antinus Petronikus makes landfall in Nova Sicilia (OTL Cuba) and claims it in the name of the Carthaginian Emire.
1220: Kagan Wlachev II of Magyaria converts to Christianity; despite significant Muslim populations in the southern areas of his nation, he declares Magyaria to be a Christian nation. The Pope in Mainz sends his compliments, and even the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church admits it is “better the Magyars pray to Mainz than Meccaâ€.
1221: Hsien China conquered by Khitans. The islands of the Green Sea (OTL Caribbean) are named the Zephyrides by Carthaginian explorers.
1225: Tibet conquered by Khitans.
1227: Carthaginian settlement of Castrum founded (OTL Havana).
1231: Sagadei, Kha-khan of the Khitans, dies; succeeded by his son Ubotei.
1235: Carthaginian explorer Istrides Bael coins the name ‘Septentria’, meaning ‘Lands of the North’ for the great northern continent across the Britannic Ocean.
1240: First Khitans converted to Islam.
1243: First reported incidents of the Black Plague in Europe, around the Dniester river and regions east of the Carpathian mountains.
1249-1255: Plague ravages Europe, killing an estimated 25 to 30 percent of the total population; the areas hardest hit include southern Frankia and northern Italy, Danemark, and the Balkans, especially Bulgaria (where some estimates put deaths at over 75%).
1254: Led by Zagan, Sagadei’s grandson, the Khitans invade southern Magyaria, determined to capture Kiev and so decapitate the Magyar’s government in one blow; with aid from Frankia, the Khitans are repelled, but renew their efforts against the more vulnerable north the next year.
1255: Khitans capture large parts of northern Magyaria; they are unable to hold their conquests, however, as the Plague begins to afflict them in large numbers. In the winter of 1255, the Khitans undergo a limited civil war which splits them east and west; the so-called Ural Khitans remain under the rule of Zagan, while the Eastern, or Khalka Khitans are ruled by a cousin, Mettai.
1257: Renewed Khitan attacks against the Magyars repelled. Avaria annexes Bulgarica.
1258-1260: Khitan attacks against Svearia and Norway. By the end of 1260 the Khitans have been expelled from most Magyar lands, though small pockets remain to the north and west of Novgorod.
1262-1272: Still recovering from the Plague and further weakened from helping the Magyars combat the Khitans, Frankia undergoes a civil war which results in the loss of several southern provinces, which become independent, albeit weak, states, usually with significant Gothic backing.
1264: Last major Khitan invasion of Magyaria defeated at the Battle of Vogoska (OTL Cherepovets). Zagan Khan is killed in the battle; his brother Usuda assumes control of the Ural Khitans.
1268: The ancient kingdom of Hadramaut in southern Arabia conquered by Carthage and reorganized as a Carthaginian province.
1275: Islam gains in popularity in China – in the north, still under Khitan rule, its influence is especially strong, but even in the Luong-controlled lands of the south the religion begins to gain converts.
1282: OTL Cape Verde Islands discovered by Carthage.
1289-1292: The Plague makes a resurgence, mainly in Lombardy and Gothica.
1300: The European population of Septentria, while still relatively small, is steadily growing: Slavs – 21,000; Norse – 8500; Gothic – 1300; Other – 3000 (total: 33,800 approx.).
 
Last edited:

Diamond

Banned
And a language map, circa 1300. *Note: I am by no means a linguistic expert, so take this with a grain of salt. I'm not trying for 100% authenticity here, just something to give you a general idea of things.*

Her.Rel.1100.GIF
 

Diamond

Banned
Slavic Religion

A couple people wanted to know how Slavic paganism interacted with native beliefs in Septentria (America). Here ya go. *note: I have taken several large liberties with both Slavic and Iroquois religion, mainly to streamline things. Sorry if it offends anyone.*

Religion Among the Slavs of Septentria

In Europe in the sixth century AD, the Slavic mindset was heavily influenced by the territories in which they lived: immense spaces covered with forests, interspersed with marshes, lakes, and rivers. They lived by fishing and hunting, raising small herds of cattle in forest clearings and meadows, and by planting a little corn. Living in groups of extended families, they were isolated and defenseless from storms, flooding rivers, and bad harvests.

Influenced by their brooding, unpredictable surroundings, Slavic deities tended to be unpredictable as well. At the heart of the Slavic religion lay a dualism which had its source in the opposition between light and darkness, between creation and destruction. Thus the two main gods were Byelobog, the god of light; and Chernobog, the god of darkness. The ancient Slavic priests, called volkhvy, believed that each god was balanced by the other, and both were due respect and prayer. One of the most ancient holy texts of the religion, The Book of Earth and Sky, states that “…there are two gods, one above and the other below. Give both their due.â€

As the Slavs began to have more contact with other peoples, this simple opposition of light and dark began to grow to encompass a wide variety of natural phenomena. As anthropomorphic elements penetrated into the religion, the sky became the god Svarog. Svarog gave birth to two children: the Sun, called Dazhbog, and Fire, called Svarogich. Worship of Svarogich became intermingled with Zoroastrianism in the Balkans during the eighth and ninth centuries, giving rise to the Avarian Church. Svarogich was often represented by a fire-breathing serpent or dragon, a motif which remains popular in both the Avarian and Slavic religions to this day.

The moon was the domain of the goddess Myesyatsa, a beautiful maiden whom the Sun, Dazhbog, marries at the beginning of summer, abandons in winter, and returns to in the spring. When the divine couple were not getting on well together, it was said an earthquake would result.

The daughters (and handmaidens) of Dazhbog and Myesyatsa are the Auroras – Utrenyaya (the Dawn), and Vechernyaya (the Dusk). The Auroras have become the patrons of travelers.

Zemlya was the goddess of the Earth and was the daughter of Chernobog, just as Svarog was the son of Byelobog. Zemlya was worshipped by farmers, who regularly made blood sacrifices to improve the fertility of their fields. Goats or sheep were the usual sacrificial animals, but in times of severe drought or famine, a human sacrifice might be called for.

The Slavs also believed in a host of minor spirits. Some of the most important were the Domovoi (so-called ‘house spirits’); the Dvorovoi (‘yard spirits’); the Bannik (‘bath spirits’); and the Ovinnik (‘barn spirits’). These four groups were thought to be, for the most part, friendly to mankind, and could be persuaded to help a man protect his home and family by bribing them with small gifts of bread and trinkets.

Less friendly and more dangerous were the Leshy (forest spirits); the Polevik (field spirits); Vodyanoi (water spirits); and most dangerous of all, the Rusalka, who were the spirits of drowned maidens.

As Christianity began its inexorable march eastward from Frankia, the Slavs found themselves losing more and more territory, and more and more of their cultural identity. Their beliefs and religions were saved (albeit in altered form) when the Norwegians allowed many Slavic tribes to settle in the newly discovered lands to the west of the Britannic Ocean: Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland. In Vinland especially, the Slavic religion incorporated many native beliefs, mainly from the Iriki and Huroni tribes.

The Iriki of the time (approximately 1000 AD) believed in several different deities which have since become incorporated into Slavic myth and religion. The Thunder Bird was the spirit of lightning and storms; he prevented drought and protected the forests from fire. In the Slavic religion, the Thunder Bird is now the steed of Svarog, the Sky God. Svarog himself has gained a more martial aspect since the Slavic migration to the New World, and is now seen as a war god as well.

Gaoh, the Iriki god of the Wind, and Hino, the god of Thunder, are still worshipped by many Iriki, but their place in the Slavic hierarchy is uncertain, and is the cause of many religious debates and feuds. The Iriki Earth goddess, Eithinoha, has become synonymous with Zemlya.

The Iriki, like the Slavs, believed in various groups of spirits, and many of these groups have meshed with the Slavic spirits. The Gahongas were thought to inhabit water and rocks; the Gandayaks were the spirits of vegetation and fish; and the Ohdowas were the spirits of the earth and protectors of all things that live in the earth.

The priesthood of the Slavs have borrowed many of their forms and ceremonies from the early Christians. The volkhvy are now known as volkvaters, or ‘fathers of the people’. A council of volkvaters forms a council for each Slavic community, where they take turns administering to different areas of their people’s lives, from blessing fields to assisting in childbirth, to marching with soldiers in battle. All volkvaters are men; women play a role in Slavic religious ceremonies only during times of harvest, when ‘blessed virgins’ in each village are made to sleep in the fields for several nights to win the favor of Zemlya and the Polevik.

The mix of Slavic and Iriki beliefs continues to evolve. It is uncertain what the end result will be, and the religion receives constant infusions of odd beliefs as new tribes are contacted in the interiors of the great continent of Septentria and as new waves of colonists begin to encroach on Slavic lands.

In Europe, the ancient beliefs of the Slavs are all but dead; most are Christians and have nothing but scorn for their pagan cousins across the ocean, but it is a rare household that does not still place a scrap of bread near the hearth for the Domovoi.
 
Top