Someone supplies you with top of the range missiles, at least one generation ahead of your old kit and you try to go it alone with your old kit? Nah, no one would be that stupid. They'd bust a gut getting the 9Ls integrated with the F-8s.
The Malouines War: France in the Falklands Redux
- Thread starter USS_Ward
- Start date
I mean this is the French afterall, they are very prideful of their own tech/weapons. But ittl they are gonna jump straight for the 9 lima asap after receiving them.
What submarines would the French deploy down to the south Atlantic?
It will be interesting to see what France will mobilise as STUFT (ships taken up from trade) as part of the task force going south.
It will be interesting to see what France will mobilise as STUFT (ships taken up from trade) as part of the task force going south.
Prideful? More like suporting their own military industrial complex. I don't see why a minor skirmish with a minor power would change that. There are political repercussion to consider. And well if it's Mitterrand I doubt he'll buy foreign gear if he can help it.
Despite the POD stretching centuries back, is it more or less the same as OTL where Reagan is the President of the U.S. at this period and France granted independence to Indochina and Algeria as per OTL?
Yep Reagan is President and Indochina and Algeria are independent. Only difference is the UK being a somewhat major weapons and arms developer/supplier/exporter. Similar to how France was and still is.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
Our greatest contribution to the French regaining the Falklands would be to sell them (the Argentinians) SA-80 rifles and the Clansman radio.
The Argentines were using FAL's iirc, which is far superior (initially) to the early SA-80's which haven't even been produced yet. Granted the French are using the Famas assault rifle by this time...would be hilarious if the British go for a license built version of the Famas ittl as a result of this war.
Edit: Granted i think the British would rather stop drinking tea then use a French designed assault rifle.
Deleted member 2186
The French are now using as of 2022 the HK416F which replaced the FAMAS, so if the French can use a German assault rifle, then the British can use French.
Chapter 4
Toulon Arsenal
Captain Jean Betermier watched as mooring operations were being finished up. As captain of the Porte Avions Clemenceau, he and his crew had just returned from a successful exercise with the Marina Militare in the Mediterranean including a successful mock Exocet attack on the Italian cruiser Vittorio Veneto. Now he, like many of his crew, was looking forward to a relaxing leave with their family while “Clem” gets a much needed refit and maintenance period. Granted there were rumors that tensions between France and Argentina over the Malouines had escalated and thus a military response would be warranted. It was these thoughts that were going through his head when he was handed a message. At first he thought that it was an out of season April Fools joke, he knew more likely than not that it wasn't the case. Scrambling off the bridge he immediately called a meeting with all of the ship's division heads, while also figuring out how and who was going to tell the crew that leave was now canceled. That wasn’t the only hurdle, Clem was supposed to get needed maintenance and a minor refit on her boilers, but now she was supposed to join up with her sister Foch and a combined task force made up of ships drawn from the Atlantic and Mediterranean fleet (a sort of precursor to the Force d’action navale in a way).
Across the Toulon Arsenal and the Brest arsenal over the next several days men, supplies and provisions were hastily assembled. Aboard the Clemeneceau, Captain Betermier met with his counterpart from the Foch. Together they discussed what the composition of the air wings for the 2 carriers should be. Both carriers could carry up to 40 aircraft (80 aircraft in total) and with the Argentines possessing a relatively large and modern air force, it was decided that an emphasis on air defense of the fleet be taken. The primary fighter/interceptor used by the Marine nationale was the legendary F-8 Crusader. Although its role as a fighter has long been superseded in the USN, the MN was still using the 50s era aircraft in frontline roles. (More out of lack of funding, and that new aircraft were too heavy or large for the Clemenceau's class flight decks). Next up would be the strike aircraft, necessary for striking at Argentine naval or ground forces, thankfully the aircraft that would be doing this would be the Super Etendard, this would be in fact the first real combat use of the Super Etendard, and in a pinch they could be used in a limited fighter role if necessary. Lastly the final fixed wing aircraft included was the venerable Breguet Alize. Designed in the 50s as a premier ASW aircraft, advances in submarine stealth had rendered the poor aircraft near obsolete. Various system upgrades in the late 70s however have helped somewhat and a radar upgrade to the *Thomson-CSF Iguane radar also gave the Marine Nationale a rudimentary AEW aircraft. The standard loadout in peacetime were 16 Super Étendards, 10 F-8 Crusaders, 3 Étendard IVPs, 7 Breguet Alizé. The new wartime loadout was an expansion on the above; 15 Super Etendard, 2, Etdernad IV 12 F-8 Crusader, 8 Breguet Alizes, and 3 As365 Dauphins, taking full advantage of the 40 aircraft capacity.
Later both Betermier and the Fochs captain met with the other CO’s from the task force that would be involved in the operation of retaking of the Malouines islands, now given the codename d'entreprise. There they were provided the latest intelligence reports of Argentine forces and naval assets in the region. Also provided were a list of Marine Nationale warships already at sea either in the atlantic or med when the Argentines invaded and were thus currently enroute to a predetermined rendezvous point in French Guiana. Overall command of the task force was given to Rear Admiral Bernard Louzeau who chose to hoist his flag aboard the Foch.
With logistics out of the way, attention then turned to the latest intelligence. According to the intel, the Argentines had begun transferring aircraft to the former French Air force base near Port St. Louis. So far this did not include any of the vaunted Spearfish armed Super Buccaneers but there was no reason to doubt that they would not be stationed there, especially when the Marine Nationale came sailing over the horizon. As it was the Marine Nationale was ill equipped to counter modern AShM’s. The Marine Nationale had a fleet of somewhat modern warships, but a lot of these were geared toward anti-submarine warfare. The majority of the primary AAW warships were made up of 3 (technically 4 if Bouvet could be recommissioned after having been decommissioned just that January) T47 class destroyers refitted in the 60s for AAW, were old and armed with the dubious RIM-24 Tartar missile. France's own indigenous AAW destroyer program, the 2 strong Suffren class were roughly comparable to the British Type 82 destroyer, both classes being designed as dedicated AAW platforms to guard the carriers. Lastly there was the oddball of the lot, the missile cruiser Colbert. Colbert and the Suffrens were both armed with France's own indigenously designed and built surface to air missile system, MASURCA which was relatively reliable and accurate. However there was one problem, MASURCA and Tartar were both designed to engage high flying slow soviet bombers or maritime patrol aircraft. They were not designed to intercept modern low flying subsonic AShM’s. Only the 3 strong F67 Tourville class destroyer, and 2 brand new F70 Georges Leygues class frigates could feasibly intercept a Spearfish missile, both classes being armed with the Crotale basic point defense missile system. Should the Crotale fail or worse yet, the 5 ships with the system be sunk or damaged then the fleet would have to resort to countermeasures such as flares, chaff or other measures capable of deceiving the missile's guidance. Hence, the ideology of “the best defence is the best offence”, the surefire way of defending the fleet would be to destroy the missiles or whatever was carrying them before they got in range of the fleet.
The next serious threat to the fleet were the 2 modern West German designed and built Type 209s. Thankfully the Marine Nationale was relatively well equipped to handle this threat, with the aforementioned, Tourville and Georges Leygues class being the premier ASW destroyers and frigates. The Marine Nationale also had 5 T47 class destroyers, refitted for ASW warfare although like their AAW brethren they were getting long in the tooth and a modern submarine could theoretically get past them. There were also the various helicopters, Alouttes, Dolphins and Super Frelons carried among the task force that could also assist in ASW warfare.
Lastly, there was the air threat. The French Fleet Air Arm (Aeronavale) was no slouch, but the Argentine air force wasn’t either and they had numerical superiority on their side as well. Captain Betermier and the others hoped that the quality of the FFAA pilots and the AAW escorts would be enough protection.
*This is where I'm still unsure of. Various online sources say that the Alize could perform AEW roles and the specifications for the Iguane radar definitely provide proof of that, at least in tracking naval targets. The one thing I'm unsure about is if the Iguane radar can detect and track aerial targets which is very important when attempting to gain air superiority…
Captain Jean Betermier watched as mooring operations were being finished up. As captain of the Porte Avions Clemenceau, he and his crew had just returned from a successful exercise with the Marina Militare in the Mediterranean including a successful mock Exocet attack on the Italian cruiser Vittorio Veneto. Now he, like many of his crew, was looking forward to a relaxing leave with their family while “Clem” gets a much needed refit and maintenance period. Granted there were rumors that tensions between France and Argentina over the Malouines had escalated and thus a military response would be warranted. It was these thoughts that were going through his head when he was handed a message. At first he thought that it was an out of season April Fools joke, he knew more likely than not that it wasn't the case. Scrambling off the bridge he immediately called a meeting with all of the ship's division heads, while also figuring out how and who was going to tell the crew that leave was now canceled. That wasn’t the only hurdle, Clem was supposed to get needed maintenance and a minor refit on her boilers, but now she was supposed to join up with her sister Foch and a combined task force made up of ships drawn from the Atlantic and Mediterranean fleet (a sort of precursor to the Force d’action navale in a way).
Across the Toulon Arsenal and the Brest arsenal over the next several days men, supplies and provisions were hastily assembled. Aboard the Clemeneceau, Captain Betermier met with his counterpart from the Foch. Together they discussed what the composition of the air wings for the 2 carriers should be. Both carriers could carry up to 40 aircraft (80 aircraft in total) and with the Argentines possessing a relatively large and modern air force, it was decided that an emphasis on air defense of the fleet be taken. The primary fighter/interceptor used by the Marine nationale was the legendary F-8 Crusader. Although its role as a fighter has long been superseded in the USN, the MN was still using the 50s era aircraft in frontline roles. (More out of lack of funding, and that new aircraft were too heavy or large for the Clemenceau's class flight decks). Next up would be the strike aircraft, necessary for striking at Argentine naval or ground forces, thankfully the aircraft that would be doing this would be the Super Etendard, this would be in fact the first real combat use of the Super Etendard, and in a pinch they could be used in a limited fighter role if necessary. Lastly the final fixed wing aircraft included was the venerable Breguet Alize. Designed in the 50s as a premier ASW aircraft, advances in submarine stealth had rendered the poor aircraft near obsolete. Various system upgrades in the late 70s however have helped somewhat and a radar upgrade to the *Thomson-CSF Iguane radar also gave the Marine Nationale a rudimentary AEW aircraft. The standard loadout in peacetime were 16 Super Étendards, 10 F-8 Crusaders, 3 Étendard IVPs, 7 Breguet Alizé. The new wartime loadout was an expansion on the above; 15 Super Etendard, 2, Etdernad IV 12 F-8 Crusader, 8 Breguet Alizes, and 3 As365 Dauphins, taking full advantage of the 40 aircraft capacity.
Later both Betermier and the Fochs captain met with the other CO’s from the task force that would be involved in the operation of retaking of the Malouines islands, now given the codename d'entreprise. There they were provided the latest intelligence reports of Argentine forces and naval assets in the region. Also provided were a list of Marine Nationale warships already at sea either in the atlantic or med when the Argentines invaded and were thus currently enroute to a predetermined rendezvous point in French Guiana. Overall command of the task force was given to Rear Admiral Bernard Louzeau who chose to hoist his flag aboard the Foch.
With logistics out of the way, attention then turned to the latest intelligence. According to the intel, the Argentines had begun transferring aircraft to the former French Air force base near Port St. Louis. So far this did not include any of the vaunted Spearfish armed Super Buccaneers but there was no reason to doubt that they would not be stationed there, especially when the Marine Nationale came sailing over the horizon. As it was the Marine Nationale was ill equipped to counter modern AShM’s. The Marine Nationale had a fleet of somewhat modern warships, but a lot of these were geared toward anti-submarine warfare. The majority of the primary AAW warships were made up of 3 (technically 4 if Bouvet could be recommissioned after having been decommissioned just that January) T47 class destroyers refitted in the 60s for AAW, were old and armed with the dubious RIM-24 Tartar missile. France's own indigenous AAW destroyer program, the 2 strong Suffren class were roughly comparable to the British Type 82 destroyer, both classes being designed as dedicated AAW platforms to guard the carriers. Lastly there was the oddball of the lot, the missile cruiser Colbert. Colbert and the Suffrens were both armed with France's own indigenously designed and built surface to air missile system, MASURCA which was relatively reliable and accurate. However there was one problem, MASURCA and Tartar were both designed to engage high flying slow soviet bombers or maritime patrol aircraft. They were not designed to intercept modern low flying subsonic AShM’s. Only the 3 strong F67 Tourville class destroyer, and 2 brand new F70 Georges Leygues class frigates could feasibly intercept a Spearfish missile, both classes being armed with the Crotale basic point defense missile system. Should the Crotale fail or worse yet, the 5 ships with the system be sunk or damaged then the fleet would have to resort to countermeasures such as flares, chaff or other measures capable of deceiving the missile's guidance. Hence, the ideology of “the best defence is the best offence”, the surefire way of defending the fleet would be to destroy the missiles or whatever was carrying them before they got in range of the fleet.
The next serious threat to the fleet were the 2 modern West German designed and built Type 209s. Thankfully the Marine Nationale was relatively well equipped to handle this threat, with the aforementioned, Tourville and Georges Leygues class being the premier ASW destroyers and frigates. The Marine Nationale also had 5 T47 class destroyers, refitted for ASW warfare although like their AAW brethren they were getting long in the tooth and a modern submarine could theoretically get past them. There were also the various helicopters, Alouttes, Dolphins and Super Frelons carried among the task force that could also assist in ASW warfare.
Lastly, there was the air threat. The French Fleet Air Arm (Aeronavale) was no slouch, but the Argentine air force wasn’t either and they had numerical superiority on their side as well. Captain Betermier and the others hoped that the quality of the FFAA pilots and the AAW escorts would be enough protection.
*This is where I'm still unsure of. Various online sources say that the Alize could perform AEW roles and the specifications for the Iguane radar definitely provide proof of that, at least in tracking naval targets. The one thing I'm unsure about is if the Iguane radar can detect and track aerial targets which is very important when attempting to gain air superiority…
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The Légion Étrangère can used the Malouines Islands as a training ground because of its particular climate or as a kind of trashbin for Légionnaires who are at the verge of a dishonorable discharge. It can served also as a place to post Légionnaires coming from "not sure" countries such as the Warsaw Pact countries or Yugoslavia. Polish Legionnaires who fled Poland after the 1981 Martial Law Coup, and who are not seen as reliable volunteers.
In 1982, you have Communists Ministers in the French Government, they will be screaming murder against a Fascist Country invading France. From the Far Left to the Far Right, it will be again the Union Sacrée.
Looks like a good setup for an alternative-alternative history "Les ARL44 de Port St Louis", where a clerical error leads to a trio of obsolete heavy tanks being sent to the Malouines instead of getting scrapped...
The Argentines had Bantam anti tank missiles iotl. Could probably take out an ARL44 or at least disable it.
Oh man this is a good story. I sure as hell know what I’m reading the rest of my morning.