I was only hoping for the Kingdom of Valencia to become Aragonese and/or French. After that, Al-Andalus can still hold out all the Christian Iberian Kingdoms, you know...
The lucky marriage - Alternate history of the Capetian Dynasty
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Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
The King of Jerusalem could commission the construction of a canal between the Red Sea, Dead Sea and Mediterranean. It would be costly but it would guarantee them control of an alternative sea-based trade route to the East.
I believe that this project is out of the reach of a Medieval state...
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Doesn't mean there can't be talk about it. The Suez Canal was something dreamed about centuries before it was actually built.
well, I cannot say yet anything about Andalusia, but yes, my timeline can be considered as a Christian wank...
While the Muslim world is screwed on some regions, it will flourish on others...
However, I am not fully the partisan of the rule of equitable compensation.
OOC
Hi Guys,
I ask you a stupid question... even if it's a little late now for change something in the timeline.
But, how realistically do you find the Battle of Rome?
Could such a battle happens this way?
I'm more interested in the strategy opted by Philip to arrange his army...
I've long time tried to find a way for a 13th century European army to beat a Mongol army at it's peak in an open space battle... Except ambush, forest, mountains or city fighting, it was the single way I found...
Thanks!
Hi Guys,
I ask you a stupid question... even if it's a little late now for change something in the timeline.
But, how realistically do you find the Battle of Rome?
Could such a battle happens this way?
I'm more interested in the strategy opted by Philip to arrange his army...
I've long time tried to find a way for a 13th century European army to beat a Mongol army at it's peak in an open space battle... Except ambush, forest, mountains or city fighting, it was the single way I found...
Thanks!
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
I think it's fine. I found it a little hard to believe myself that the Mongols had much success TTL in breaching the Aurelian Walls and sending their riders into the city, given that their siege engines and artillery crews were lacking. As long as there's no magic or other supernatural elements, it's realistic enough.
I've found nothing irrealistic.
The decision to come out and anchor the left flank on Tiber river was a good choice.
I'm myself by nature prudent, so I would have avoided combat, but I'm not a Medieval general.
The decision to come out and anchor the left flank on Tiber river was a good choice.
I'm myself by nature prudent, so I would have avoided combat, but I'm not a Medieval general.
The walls were stormed not breached.
Mighty walls without men are nothing. The papal army was destroyed at Tarsimene. On the walls were frighten militia wich view theirs friends nached caring the enemy laders and rams.
Philip sort out to give battle to not loose the Mongols. And I wished a battle.
My question was more about french battle formation.
Thanx!
Mighty walls without men are nothing. The papal army was destroyed at Tarsimene. On the walls were frighten militia wich view theirs friends nached caring the enemy laders and rams.
Philip sort out to give battle to not loose the Mongols. And I wished a battle.
My question was more about french battle formation.
Thanx!
Walls of Bricks, Walls of Wood, Walls of Stone
"A wall of wood alone shall be uncaptured"
“Pray to the Winds. They will prove to be mighty allies”
Delphi Oracle
The Fast Wooden Walls of Venice“Pray to the Winds. They will prove to be mighty allies”
Delphi Oracle
The winter of 1241-1242 was extremely cold and the devastation caused by the Mongol invasions of both German and Italian lands brought a great famine in those lands. Thousands died and thousands took the path of emigration to the other regions untouched by the war, with France and Iberia as main targets.
Both Austria and Bohemia were raided again by small parties of Mongol (and their nomad vassals) light cavalry, spreading havoc and terror. Fearing a new large scale invasion, both King Wenceslaus of Bohemia and the dowager Duchess Isabelle of Austria choose to submit to the Mongols. They sent envoys to offering a formal recognition of the Mongol suzerainty, agreeing to pay harsh tribute each year. Austria agree to cede back the occupied Hungarian counties, and the city of Sopron. These actions were blamed by the Pope which call for a Crusade against the pagans which occupied Hungary and are treating the Christianity, call that fall on deaf ears.
Italy was still in a state of war. Now, all the wrath and anger target Venice and its possessions captured or handed by the Mongols during their invasion of the peninsula. While their King was returned in France for the funerals of his mother, many French soldiers were left in Italy to protect Rome and recover the lost lands, under the command of Viscount Jean de Melun, the Marshal of France. Together with the armies of other Italians cities and principalities, they fight back to recover the stolen lands and cities. All of them were now falling, one after another, some cause by populace revolts (like Ferrara) and other by Italian and French armies. Soon Venice will remain with only its city in the lagoon, protected by their mighty fleet. As the faith of Athens many centuries ago, the faith of the Republic was now put in their wooden walls.
A big fleet organised and led by Genoa gathered most of the Italian and Sicilian ships under the command of the Admiral Alfredo Ercole di Savona and was ready to march and destroy the Venetians once and for all… Genoa make a top priority of its fight against its main enemy and competitor. If Venice will be crippled if not destroy, then all the commerce with the orient will be in the Genovese hands. With the Pope’s support, they compel nearly all the Italian ports to participate to this “maritime crusade”. Even the Sicilian and papal galleys participate, alongside with galleys from Pissa, Amalfi, Gaeta, Noli, Lucca, Sovana, etc. and even 18 galleys from Barcelona. The French contributed only with 4 galleys, while Marseille added only 5. The French justify that they fought better on land and they have already a big army in the field, while the Marseillesses say nothing… they hate more Genoa than Venice.
In the spring of 1242, the big allied fleet was spotted by the Venetian patrols outside of Leuca, entering in the Adriatic Sea. It slowly moved north and was 150 galleys strong. In the same time, the French army crossed the river Po. Venice was under panic. They requested help from theirs allies and suzerains, the Mongols, but very little help from Dalmatia and Croatian comes.
The two fleet meet in the high sea, right in the middle of Adriatic. The Venetian fleet, 120 galleys strong, ambush the coalition one by getting out from behind the Isole Tremiti archipelago and attack with the wind behind. Led by Admiral Francesco Sanudo, the Venetians obtained a crushing victory, sinking most of the enemy fleet. It was one of the bloodiest naval battles from the entire era. But it not comes without cost. Thousands of Venetians sailors were dead and 50 galleys lost or damaged beyond recovering. This so high and unusual casualties were caused by several factors: first being the fact that the battle was conducted on the high sea and not near the coast. The second was the employment of incendiary materials by the Venetians, which create havoc trough the enemy but also led to many of their own galleys to burn when the wind suddenly change direction. The third, was the fact that no quarters were given. Neither the Venetians nor the coalition was able to recover the sailors or the soldiers fallen in water, also no prisoners were taken. Alfredo Ercole di Savona was killed by a crossbow bolt near of the beginning of the battle, so the coalition fight without unified command. Very few of their ships escapes to Italy shores. Venice was safe! The French also turn west, starting their long march to home.
The Strong Stone Walls of Constantinople
After the failing campaign in Italy and the departure of Güyükto Mongolia, Batu order a new campaign. This time, he goes south. In the spring of 1242, Serbia was crushed and its King was forced to pay homage to Batu and Berke, becoming vassal of the Black Horde. Then the Mongol army move to Bulgaria.
The defeats and devastation caused by Güyük’s invasion in 1240 caused much concern and unrest among the Bulgarian and Greek elites, which considered the boy-Emperor [FONT="]Kaliman Asen[/FONT] as unfitted for his throne. The Bulgarians saw with horror the havoc caused by the strange invaders on their neighbours but failed to do much preparations, being more concerned about their politics.
When the Mongols hordes entered in the Empire once again, this time coming from west, everyone panicked. The lands north of the Balkans, once devastated by Güyük two years ago, were once again wasted and deserted by the invaders.
The Bulgarian army was destroyed near Nish and the Mongols were free to plunder trough the Empire. Many cities were sacked and burn to the ground, however the capital Constantinople resisted grace of his marvellously walls, recently repaired. While they devastates the countryside, the Mongols lacked both fleet and engineers to bring down the mighty walls. The Venetians do not compel to Batu’s request to provide ships to attack the walls from the sea, as they keep delaying and again delaying, justifying their need of self-defences. Even after the Naval Battle, they do not provide the requested ships. The real reason was the fact that they had large privileges offered by the Bulgarians and they were afraid that they will lose them.
[FONT="]However, without army and without allies, Kaliman finally submit to the Mongols, [FONT="]recognizing[/FONT] him as their vassal, engaging to pay a huge tribute and ceding all lands north of the Balkan Mountains to the Black Horde. [/FONT]
[FONT="]This was the last act signed by the boy-Emperor. One week after the departure of the Mongol army from the walls of Constantinople, Kaliman Asen was murdered by the Greek party led by his stepmother Irene Komnene Doukaina, and replaced by his half-brother, 6 years old, Michael Asen. A regency council was also created, led by Irene and the Orthodox Patriarch Theophile. While publically she denounce the treaty sign with the Mongols, Irene sent a mission whit lavish gifts to Berke Khan assuring him that they will respect the treaty and the tribute will continue to flow as it was agreed. [/FONT]
The consequence of ceding the lands north of the Balkans to the Mongols, the own Bulgarian heartland, was a slowly migration of the survivors from the Danubian plains to the Mountains. These peoples were settled in the ravaged lands of Thrace and Macedonia.
By the end of the year 1242, the Black Horde achieved its greatest territorial expansion, in both controlling lands and influence. The capital of the Horde was established in the ruins of the Hungarian city of Pest, on the left side of the Danube, while Buda was razed to the ground and devolved to a merely village. The Hungarian plain offered exceled grazing pastures for the Mongol horses, especially after the depopulation cause by invasion. The ethnic Hungarian population suffer immensely, the estimation of the total lost varying from 40 to 60 percent. Considered as un-loyal, many of the survivors were deported in the plain between Danube and Tisza, to be closely watched by the Mongols. Other enclaves survived, spread through the former kingdom, oppressed by their new masters.
The Principality of Halicz-Volhynia was split and only the Volhynia was left to Danilo, while the Halicz part was directly annexed by the Black Horde. Not only Bulgarian Empire and Serbia pay tribute and recognise the Black Horde as its suzerain, but also Poland, Bohemia and Austria, while Croatia, Dalmatia and Bosnian Banats were merely vassals.
The Banate of Severin was a special case. While officially it was vassal as all others, paying tribute and contributing with troops to the Khan campaigns, its ruler rejoice of a large autonomy and high confidence of the Khan Berke, being its own brother in law. Bogdan received more privileges and lands to rule, its principality becoming extremely prosperous. Spared by the devastation, the economy recovered from Mongol extraction and benefit from the influx of immigrants and refugees. As the title of Voivode of Transylvania was vacant, Bogdan use all its machinations to obtain it. However, all that he finally received was the lordship over the Apuseni Mountains and the county of Fehevar (Alba).
Berke start to love the wine obtained in the regions of Vânju Mare and Drincea and spend many days in hunting in the Carpathian Mountains, hosted by his brother in law. While those parties were extremely costly, Bogdan recover his lost money by acquiring lands. After the Transylvanian gains, several years later, Berke award him with the lordship over the Banate of Vidin, with all the Bulgarian conquered lands from Branicevo till the river of Skomlya which flows into the Danube down of Vidin.
However all this avarice was not well perceived by the Mongols elites which were not content about strengthen so much a vassal. When Ruxandra, the wife of Berke died in childbirth, delivering a new son to the Khan, the days of Bogdan were numbered. 4 years later, in 1250, Bogdan was tried by corruption and treason and was executed in Pest. However, most of his lands were inherited by his son Nicolae, a 9 years old boy which lived at the court of Berke and played with his sons and the other Mongols noble boys.
Another aspect of the Black Horde in its beginning, was the Religion. While all Religions were tolerated as long as they were not in conflict with the Mongol rule, same as everywhere in the Mongol Empire, there were however present some religions tensions and preferences. Berke himself seems to be a Muslim, but his convictions was very vague, regarding all the religions as something like “a good sorcery to have”, only that he preferred the Islam one over the others, as long as it do not concern his drinking and eating habits. Inside the borders, there were Orthodox, Catholics, Nestorians, few Muslims, few Buddhists and, of course, Shamanists. But for how long this religious toleration and diversity will endure?
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Attached: the Map of the Black Horde at it's maximum peak
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Main Sources: Wikipedia
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Let's hope Venice will pay for its treachery one day ...
To continue on my idea of development of an alternate trade route, I wonder about how possible could be some kind of boycott against Venice. The big problem is Venice having quasi monopoly situation, 'quasi' as the Egyptian route is still free.
Even if there is still much to do to develop it as a viable alternative, Venetian monopoly is an incentive big enough. Main players would be Genoa and Marseille.
I hope that the sons of Pytheas will have their local Marco Polo, an adventurer merchant seeking to trade with Indies and China.
I could see him fighting his way through the Red Sea against pirates, caught in some intrigue with Cholas, Srivajaya and Khmers, before finally making its way to the court of the Song Emperor at the dawn of his dynasty, and why not, succeed with some exploits to stall it.
To continue on my idea of development of an alternate trade route, I wonder about how possible could be some kind of boycott against Venice. The big problem is Venice having quasi monopoly situation, 'quasi' as the Egyptian route is still free.
Even if there is still much to do to develop it as a viable alternative, Venetian monopoly is an incentive big enough. Main players would be Genoa and Marseille.
I hope that the sons of Pytheas will have their local Marco Polo, an adventurer merchant seeking to trade with Indies and China.
I could see him fighting his way through the Red Sea against pirates, caught in some intrigue with Cholas, Srivajaya and Khmers, before finally making its way to the court of the Song Emperor at the dawn of his dynasty, and why not, succeed with some exploits to stall it.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Now that Michael is Emperor and the Greek party is taking charge of the Empire, and the core territories of Bulgaria have been ceded to Mongol rule, what's left of the Bulgarian kingdom will slowly assimilate to the Roman culture and become indistinguishable from the Empire of Nicaea. The nobility will go first as Constantinople is the capital and the peasants will soon follow.
Great map!
With Hungary so vacated of human life, one can wonder which demography shall take its place. A Mongol-Hungarian-Pecheneg-Slav-Wallachian-etc-etc country? Or shall its neighbors reconquer and divide the lands to themselves?
aegis03florin, I don't know if you already stated this, but how do the Roman-Bulgarians and the Nicaeans see each other, please? Do the former see the latter as a state which is to be eventually amended to Constantinople? And do the latter see the former as foreigners with no legitimacy to the Roman Empire, but with whom there is little to be done about?
With Hungary so vacated of human life, one can wonder which demography shall take its place. A Mongol-Hungarian-Pecheneg-Slav-Wallachian-etc-etc country? Or shall its neighbors reconquer and divide the lands to themselves?
aegis03florin, I don't know if you already stated this, but how do the Roman-Bulgarians and the Nicaeans see each other, please? Do the former see the latter as a state which is to be eventually amended to Constantinople? And do the latter see the former as foreigners with no legitimacy to the Roman Empire, but with whom there is little to be done about?
They will...galileo-034 said:
This is the curse of any "barbarian" kingdom which conquer a prestigious Empire (Roman, Byzantine, Chinese, Persian, Indian or whatever great civilization they conquered).
Will seeBraganza said:
While the Bulgarians considered themselves as legitimate heirs of the Roman Empire, the Nicaeans consider them as usurpers. However the relations between them are peaceful for now, especially grace of [FONT="]the marriage between Princess Elena of Bulgaria (Manuel sister) and Theodore Laskaris [/FONT](John's heir), but also grace of influence of the dowager Empress, Irenne Dukas Komenos (which held the real power). An important element is also the Venetian alliance with Constantinople. The Niceans and the Venetians are hatred enemies.Braganza said:
On Italy, given Austria tributary status and Venetian alliance to Mongols, Pô Valley is still threatened. This situation makes it subservient to French protection, pending the affirmation of a strong leader for Sicily-Naples and the end of the interregnum in HRE.
It seems the only power capable of beating the Mongols (for now) is France-England. Hoo boy. Defeating the Black Horde (BTW when did they splinter away from the Khaganate and Golden Horde?) is going to be a long, painful endeavour.
I guess after that Philip might as well ask primacy inter pares to the Pope.
Shouldn't Philip fix the English inheritance law too , BTW?
When does Seljukid Rum get wrecked?
Kose Dag in 1243.
May I suggest ''the Double Crown'' as name for France-England, it's sounds better to me.
May I suggest ''the Double Crown'' as name for France-England, it's sounds better to me.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
I'm not aegis but I'll give you my opinion.
I see the Pannonian Plain becoming dominated by the Cuman/Kipchaks subject under Mongol rule. Hungary was the area where they went to, fleeing the onslaught of the Mongols and with their khan killed, they're likely to switch their loyalty to Berke, if only out of self-preservation. The Mongols are a minority and even more so after their losses in their recent campaigns, and are likely to be absorbed into the Cumans. No doubt that the Cumans themselves would do a little assimilation themselves, intermarrying with Berke's descendants to gain power in the Khan's court.
The ethnic Hungarians are in a bad situation. A good number of them are dead and now the rest are suffering the boot of Mongol oppression. The ruling aristocracy was wiped out in the invasion and whoever's left, if any are left, are in no position to reclaim their lands. And this is just the beginning. No doubt as you stated, Christendom will no doubt try to reclaim the land. What was formerly Hungary will become a war zone and the Hungarians will no doubt suffer from the conflicts between the Horde and Christendom, decreasing their population even further than it already is. Add in the factor of famine, plague and gradual cultural assimilation, the Hungarians are screwed. And if they try to rebel and no doubt they will, the Mongols would just do the successful age old tactic of deportation.
There's also a big German element in the former Hungary in the Transylvanian Saxons and other German settler groups elsewhere. Many are also dead and others have likely fled to Austria and the Holy Roman Empire for refuge. The ones who have a chance to perhaps gain a special status in the Horde as the go-between with the heathen Mongols and the west. As the Venetians have a monopoly for the time being in the overseas trade routes to the Mongol Empire, perhaps they can earn the favor of the Khan and earn a monopoly in the overland trade routes in the steppes.
The Vlachs have the most potential to gain despite the unequal treatment that the Banate of Severin has to the Black Horde. Bogdan's been intelligent to serve as Berke's most loyal pawn, being granted territory after territory in acknowledgment of his fealty to the Khan before his untimely demise. Nicolae has the Apuseni Mountains, Vidin and the county of Fehevar (Alba) and so long as he continues his father's policies, perhaps marry one of Berke's relations, he and his successors can expand his influence and slowly bring Vlachia under one single authority. And perhaps maybe, like Muscovy ended the tribute to the Golden Horde, the Vlachs can throw off the Mongol yoke.
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