German logistics train wasn’t also very heavily mechanised as well at the start of WW2 heck by this time they still had a lot of horse drawn logistics units when they launched Barbarossa come to think of it. Also many of the germans infantry units marched into France and Russia as well.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
In Poland, Germany put in 66 divisions and 6 brigades (vs. 39 divisions and 16 brigades for the Poles), 9,000 guns (vs. 4,300 for the Poles), 2,750 tanks (vs. 210 tanks and 670 tankettes for the Poles) and 2,315 aircraft (vs. 800 for the Poles.
In France, the Germans put in 141 divisions (vs. 135 for the Allies), for a total of 3,350,000 men (vs. 3,300,000 men for the Allies), 7,378 guns (vs. 13,974 for the Allies), 2,445 tanks (vs. 3,383-4,071 for the Allies), and 5,638 aircraft (vs <2,395 for the allies).
In Poland, the Germans were numerically (and qualitatively) superior in all arms, while in France they were only peer in men, and numerically inferior in guns and tanks, and the Allied equipment was much closer to qualitative parity than the Polish stuff had been.
Which tells us creditable things about the Polish performance but, had the Germans behaved the same in the Battle of France as in the Battle of Poland, they would have done far worse than IOTL. It would make an interesting thread though. The Germans learned much from the fighting in Poland so went into France with some lessons learned and some corrections applied. In essence they (apologies to Poles) had a practice run beforehand. Britain and France failed to use the phoney war to apply the observed lessons and apply that to training. A clear British example is to compare the performance of Montgomery’s division to the others of the BEF. With the same resources he trained them hard in relevant practices and the training paid off. Another interesting thread would be events around Dunkirk were another General in charge instead of Montgomery. But I digress from this thread.
Posts like this are really frowned upon and you've been here long enough to know that.
I thought this, but actually it's a bit more complicated than that.
Indeed so. It shows Gamelin drawing the wrong lessons. Whereas he should have looked to cope with the encounter battle and not try to make it go away. However, the whole edifice was built around a rigid model without the leadership to respond, the intelligence to gain the initiative, nor the communications to enact rapid change in the light of intelligence. What impressed me about Montgomery as a divisional commander was that he used the time to train to use the resources he had so that his men knew what to do when ordered and confidence from real time practice that it would happen with speed and order. He had no special resources nor extra time compared to his neighbours yet made his division fit for battle and mobile as a whole.
However, we digress.
allanpcameron
Donor
In answer to the question is the TL still ongoing, the answer is yes...but...
I've found that I've fallen into the same trap as with my other TLs where I get bogged down in day to day narratives. So I want to change things up a bit, but whether or not I will, is another matter.
Allan.
I've found that I've fallen into the same trap as with my other TLs where I get bogged down in day to day narratives. So I want to change things up a bit, but whether or not I will, is another matter.
Allan.
13 November 1941. Libya. Operation Crusader, Day 12.
allanpcameron
Donor
13 November 1941. Libya. Operation Crusader, Day 12.
Captain Mark Lawson OC C Squadron 6th/41st Bn RTR, had the unusual feeling that things were looking up. After butting their heads against the Italian defences for days on end, and seeing all too many of his comrades killed and injured, he was now on an open road, the tank travelling at a steady fifteen miles per hour. The rest of the Squadron was following, and behind C Squadron the rest of the amalgamated Royal Tank Regiment was also motoring northwards.
Lawson was superstitious enough to quickly spit over his shoulder and touch something wooden, so that he wouldn’t have just jinxed the day. The sound of aircraft engines broke through all the other noises, and as he looked back over his shoulder, he saw a flight of four Beaufighters, flying at, what looked to him like less than fifty feet, passing directly overhead. He had no idea what the flyboys were up to, but at least they weren’t Stukas. That made him realise that he hadn’t seen much in the way of enemy aircraft for a while.
Moving in the opposite direction was a steady stream of Italian prisoners. A few Bren Carriers were shepherding the columns of defeated men. Looking at them, Lawson thought that they didn’t look too upset. For them at least, the war was over. His thoughts were interrupted by a message from the Battalion CO. 7th Hussars were leaguered at Gioda, having been involved in a running battle with an Italian rear-guard, including tanks. They’d found themselves low in ammunition, and were waiting for their replenishment vehicles to arrive. That meant that the Royal Tank Regiment would take over the chase.
From previous briefings, High Command believed that there was a further line of Italian resistance protecting Misurata. If so, it would probably be around Crispi, though there were no obvious geographical features to anchor it. It occurred to Lawson as he looked at his map, that that was probably where the Beaufighters were heading. The Battalion was to push on past Gioda, then fan out in preparation for blasting through whatever line the Italians had. Lawson had, from bitter experience, a higher opinion of the Italian defensive works than the plan seemed to indicate.
Nonetheless, Lawson passed on the information to his Troop leaders over the Squadron net: C Squadron would be on the left-hand side of the Battalion, and looking for a flank to turn. The South African Armoured Car Company would be scouting out the situation, and hopefully would provide some real intelligence before Lawson and his squadron blundered into a line of anti-tank traps and guns.
The banter between the donkey-whallopers of 7th Hussars and the RTR men as they passed contained the usual invective of the men of two regiments of the British army. The worst off were the RTR men that had been used to strengthen the Hussars, their days with the Lilywhites, or saucy seventh, would long be remembered by their comrades.
Carrying on northwards, the sides of the road were littered with abandoned equipment and groups of foot-weary Italian prisoners. A fast-moving vehicle coming towards him, brought Lawson back to full alertness. It quickly came into focus as a Marmon-Herrington armoured car. The South African, Sergeant Charles Margot, commander of the armoured car halted beside Lawson’s tank. The armoured car’s radio had been damaged in an ambush, which had destroyed the rest of Margot’s troop. He had been wounded, but was able to show Lawson on the map where it had happened.
He reported that there were at least a couple of anti-tank guns, and although he hadn’t seen one personally, his driver was sure there were a couple of tanks involved. Margot estimated that the Italian force was at least a Company in strength, probably more. Lawson thanked him, and sent him off back to an aid station get his wounded arm fixed up. Lawson passed on the information over the radio to his superiors and while waiting for orders, sorted out his own Squadron to prepare them to go forward, ready for immediate action. The ambush had taken place about five miles ahead, and the leading elements of 16th Brigade wouldn’t be too far behind the South African scouting force. Margot had mentioned that’s he’d given a report to a Captain in 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regiment, who were the furthest advanced unit.
Issued with orders to catch up with the Leicestershires and support them against whatever Italian forces were resisting, Lawson waved his Squadron to move forward, at their best possible speed. Fifteen minutes later Lawson and Captain Lawrence Morris were coordinating their plan. The Battalion’s Carrier Platoon were up ahead at the site of the ambush, and were reporting that the Italians were still there. Morris had waited for Lawson’s tanks before ordering his Company forward. The rest of the Battalion was preparing to follow up the attack by A Company and C Squadron.
Lawson had three of his Troops in an arrowhead formation, with his HQ Troop and the other two troops in a line behind them. The infantry followed in lorries, and would stay with the tanks until they reached the Carrier Platoon when they would dismount. Lawson had two of the Battalion’s CS Valiant I tanks with the HQ Troop. The South African sergeant hadn’t mentioned anything about mines, but if there was one thing the British tankers had learned in their war against the Italians, there would likely be at least a few.
The three Troop leaders in the arrowhead had orders to stop for nothing. These nine tanks would blast through the ambush zone, and the rest of the squadron would support the infantry clearing up whatever was left. If needs be, Lawson would order the first three troops to circle around and hit the Italian positions from the rear. Lawson’s HQ troop, with the CS tanks, would cover the nine tanks, and then cover the infantry as they moved up. Requests for air support and artillery support were made, though the time frame was difficult to predict.
The three troops went at top speed through the ambush area, two of the tanks were disabled, one by a mine and the other by an anti-tank gun strike to the engine compartment. The rest of the tanks kept going as ordered, while the rest of Lawson’s squadron provided covering fire, along with the infantry. Lawson saw a chance, and ordered his remaining tanks to advance, having given Captain Morris warning with a coloured flare.
As planned with the seven tanks that had gone through the ambush site and turned to come round behind the Italians, whatever fight was left in the Italians disappeared. White flags began to appear, and Lawson called on the Squadron net for all tanks to cease fire. Jumping down off the tank, Lawson went looking for Captain Morris. When he found the Leicestershire’s Company HQ, Lawson noted that Morris had sustained a wound that was being treated by a medic. Assured that it was only a minor flesh wound, Morris conferred with Lawson, Morris’ batman providing them both with a brew of hot sweet tea.
When the Battalion Commander arrived, the majority of the Italian prisoners were being processed and a couple of English-speaking officers were being interrogated. A map was found which seemed to suggest that the main Italian position was another five miles ahead, around Crispi. From what could be gathered, most Italian units, at least those that had transport, were by-passing Misurata and heading straight towards Tripoli. According to the captured officers, the troops holding the positions around Crispi were low in number, quality and morale.
It took an hour to coordinate with the Brigade and Divisional Commanders, and another hour for the 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regiment to get itself sorted. The lead company of 1st Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders [1 A&SH] arrived to take over the Italian prisoners, while the Leicesters and Lawson’s Squadron moved off towards Crispi. The good news was that the Brigade’s Field Regiment RA had also moved up in support and a Forward Observation Officer in a universal carrier had joined the tanks and lorries.
Lawson had kept five Troops in a loose arrowhead, this covered quite a broad front. His HQ Squadron followed with the Infantry’s Carrier Platoon in close attendance. The infantry’s lorries followed primarily using the road. The final two troops, both reduced to just two tanks were out ahead acting as reconnaissance. Each of these two troops would cover the other as it moved forward, then the other would take over, moving forward from cover to cover. The loss of the South African armoured cars necessitated this clumsy reconnaissance effort.
When contact with the Italian positions around Crispi was made, Lawson made his own way forward with the Royal Artillery FOO and Captain Morris. They agreed on a plan to try to force the issue. The Field Artillery would open with a bombardment, after a few minutes they would switch to smoke and the tanks and men would advance under the cover of the smoke. The tanks would act as Infantry Tanks in this situation, providing immediate support and cover to the infantry assault.
There weren’t many hours of daylight left, and Lawson was keen to attack with enough time to come back to the current position to rearm and refuel. At the appointed hour, the artillery barrage began, the FOO sending corrections over the radio. Two Companies of infantry were going forward, each platoon accompanied by one of Lawson’s tanks. The rest of the tanks, and the carrier platoon, would be ready to reinforce or exploit as needed.
Under the cover of the smoke, the attack went in. A few Italian machine guns fired through the smoke, but as the tanks and infantry appeared and opened fire, the white flags, which must have been near at hand, were raised. When informed of this, Lawson ordered his HQ Troop and the carrier platoon forward. They worked their way through the Italian positions and, with as much haste as possible aimed at the town of Misurata, the other Company of infantry following on their lorries.
Rolling over an abandoned aerodrome, Lawson cut the road from Misurata to Zliten. The carrier platoon and infantry Company moved through the town itself, much of which was abandoned except by footsore Italian soldiers who had been unable to outpace the British advance. Misurata was no longer part of the Italian Empire.
Captain Mark Lawson OC C Squadron 6th/41st Bn RTR, had the unusual feeling that things were looking up. After butting their heads against the Italian defences for days on end, and seeing all too many of his comrades killed and injured, he was now on an open road, the tank travelling at a steady fifteen miles per hour. The rest of the Squadron was following, and behind C Squadron the rest of the amalgamated Royal Tank Regiment was also motoring northwards.
Lawson was superstitious enough to quickly spit over his shoulder and touch something wooden, so that he wouldn’t have just jinxed the day. The sound of aircraft engines broke through all the other noises, and as he looked back over his shoulder, he saw a flight of four Beaufighters, flying at, what looked to him like less than fifty feet, passing directly overhead. He had no idea what the flyboys were up to, but at least they weren’t Stukas. That made him realise that he hadn’t seen much in the way of enemy aircraft for a while.
Moving in the opposite direction was a steady stream of Italian prisoners. A few Bren Carriers were shepherding the columns of defeated men. Looking at them, Lawson thought that they didn’t look too upset. For them at least, the war was over. His thoughts were interrupted by a message from the Battalion CO. 7th Hussars were leaguered at Gioda, having been involved in a running battle with an Italian rear-guard, including tanks. They’d found themselves low in ammunition, and were waiting for their replenishment vehicles to arrive. That meant that the Royal Tank Regiment would take over the chase.
From previous briefings, High Command believed that there was a further line of Italian resistance protecting Misurata. If so, it would probably be around Crispi, though there were no obvious geographical features to anchor it. It occurred to Lawson as he looked at his map, that that was probably where the Beaufighters were heading. The Battalion was to push on past Gioda, then fan out in preparation for blasting through whatever line the Italians had. Lawson had, from bitter experience, a higher opinion of the Italian defensive works than the plan seemed to indicate.
Nonetheless, Lawson passed on the information to his Troop leaders over the Squadron net: C Squadron would be on the left-hand side of the Battalion, and looking for a flank to turn. The South African Armoured Car Company would be scouting out the situation, and hopefully would provide some real intelligence before Lawson and his squadron blundered into a line of anti-tank traps and guns.
The banter between the donkey-whallopers of 7th Hussars and the RTR men as they passed contained the usual invective of the men of two regiments of the British army. The worst off were the RTR men that had been used to strengthen the Hussars, their days with the Lilywhites, or saucy seventh, would long be remembered by their comrades.
Carrying on northwards, the sides of the road were littered with abandoned equipment and groups of foot-weary Italian prisoners. A fast-moving vehicle coming towards him, brought Lawson back to full alertness. It quickly came into focus as a Marmon-Herrington armoured car. The South African, Sergeant Charles Margot, commander of the armoured car halted beside Lawson’s tank. The armoured car’s radio had been damaged in an ambush, which had destroyed the rest of Margot’s troop. He had been wounded, but was able to show Lawson on the map where it had happened.
He reported that there were at least a couple of anti-tank guns, and although he hadn’t seen one personally, his driver was sure there were a couple of tanks involved. Margot estimated that the Italian force was at least a Company in strength, probably more. Lawson thanked him, and sent him off back to an aid station get his wounded arm fixed up. Lawson passed on the information over the radio to his superiors and while waiting for orders, sorted out his own Squadron to prepare them to go forward, ready for immediate action. The ambush had taken place about five miles ahead, and the leading elements of 16th Brigade wouldn’t be too far behind the South African scouting force. Margot had mentioned that’s he’d given a report to a Captain in 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regiment, who were the furthest advanced unit.
Issued with orders to catch up with the Leicestershires and support them against whatever Italian forces were resisting, Lawson waved his Squadron to move forward, at their best possible speed. Fifteen minutes later Lawson and Captain Lawrence Morris were coordinating their plan. The Battalion’s Carrier Platoon were up ahead at the site of the ambush, and were reporting that the Italians were still there. Morris had waited for Lawson’s tanks before ordering his Company forward. The rest of the Battalion was preparing to follow up the attack by A Company and C Squadron.
Lawson had three of his Troops in an arrowhead formation, with his HQ Troop and the other two troops in a line behind them. The infantry followed in lorries, and would stay with the tanks until they reached the Carrier Platoon when they would dismount. Lawson had two of the Battalion’s CS Valiant I tanks with the HQ Troop. The South African sergeant hadn’t mentioned anything about mines, but if there was one thing the British tankers had learned in their war against the Italians, there would likely be at least a few.
The three Troop leaders in the arrowhead had orders to stop for nothing. These nine tanks would blast through the ambush zone, and the rest of the squadron would support the infantry clearing up whatever was left. If needs be, Lawson would order the first three troops to circle around and hit the Italian positions from the rear. Lawson’s HQ troop, with the CS tanks, would cover the nine tanks, and then cover the infantry as they moved up. Requests for air support and artillery support were made, though the time frame was difficult to predict.
The three troops went at top speed through the ambush area, two of the tanks were disabled, one by a mine and the other by an anti-tank gun strike to the engine compartment. The rest of the tanks kept going as ordered, while the rest of Lawson’s squadron provided covering fire, along with the infantry. Lawson saw a chance, and ordered his remaining tanks to advance, having given Captain Morris warning with a coloured flare.
As planned with the seven tanks that had gone through the ambush site and turned to come round behind the Italians, whatever fight was left in the Italians disappeared. White flags began to appear, and Lawson called on the Squadron net for all tanks to cease fire. Jumping down off the tank, Lawson went looking for Captain Morris. When he found the Leicestershire’s Company HQ, Lawson noted that Morris had sustained a wound that was being treated by a medic. Assured that it was only a minor flesh wound, Morris conferred with Lawson, Morris’ batman providing them both with a brew of hot sweet tea.
When the Battalion Commander arrived, the majority of the Italian prisoners were being processed and a couple of English-speaking officers were being interrogated. A map was found which seemed to suggest that the main Italian position was another five miles ahead, around Crispi. From what could be gathered, most Italian units, at least those that had transport, were by-passing Misurata and heading straight towards Tripoli. According to the captured officers, the troops holding the positions around Crispi were low in number, quality and morale.
It took an hour to coordinate with the Brigade and Divisional Commanders, and another hour for the 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regiment to get itself sorted. The lead company of 1st Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders [1 A&SH] arrived to take over the Italian prisoners, while the Leicesters and Lawson’s Squadron moved off towards Crispi. The good news was that the Brigade’s Field Regiment RA had also moved up in support and a Forward Observation Officer in a universal carrier had joined the tanks and lorries.
Lawson had kept five Troops in a loose arrowhead, this covered quite a broad front. His HQ Squadron followed with the Infantry’s Carrier Platoon in close attendance. The infantry’s lorries followed primarily using the road. The final two troops, both reduced to just two tanks were out ahead acting as reconnaissance. Each of these two troops would cover the other as it moved forward, then the other would take over, moving forward from cover to cover. The loss of the South African armoured cars necessitated this clumsy reconnaissance effort.
When contact with the Italian positions around Crispi was made, Lawson made his own way forward with the Royal Artillery FOO and Captain Morris. They agreed on a plan to try to force the issue. The Field Artillery would open with a bombardment, after a few minutes they would switch to smoke and the tanks and men would advance under the cover of the smoke. The tanks would act as Infantry Tanks in this situation, providing immediate support and cover to the infantry assault.
There weren’t many hours of daylight left, and Lawson was keen to attack with enough time to come back to the current position to rearm and refuel. At the appointed hour, the artillery barrage began, the FOO sending corrections over the radio. Two Companies of infantry were going forward, each platoon accompanied by one of Lawson’s tanks. The rest of the tanks, and the carrier platoon, would be ready to reinforce or exploit as needed.
Under the cover of the smoke, the attack went in. A few Italian machine guns fired through the smoke, but as the tanks and infantry appeared and opened fire, the white flags, which must have been near at hand, were raised. When informed of this, Lawson ordered his HQ Troop and the carrier platoon forward. They worked their way through the Italian positions and, with as much haste as possible aimed at the town of Misurata, the other Company of infantry following on their lorries.
Rolling over an abandoned aerodrome, Lawson cut the road from Misurata to Zliten. The carrier platoon and infantry Company moved through the town itself, much of which was abandoned except by footsore Italian soldiers who had been unable to outpace the British advance. Misurata was no longer part of the Italian Empire.
Can you blame them? Their war has just been one loss after another after another, people fighting and dying and suffering defeat after defeat. And for what? A fool's dream of the restoration of an Empire long dead?
Prepping to make a run for the Tunisian border I suspect. If they make it, that could draw the Vichy into the war, unless they insist on internment.
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