Tough to compare. Theoretically both countries are "Pacific Powers" now but are almost exactly Antipodal to each other. I would not consider it much of a spoiler if you indicated whether Argentina and China were on opposite sides in a war during the 20th century.
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
It won't happen, but I'd get a mighty kick out of Canada falling to Integrationalism. That would give the Orangemen something to fret about
My guesses are Portugal and at least one Austro-Hungarian successor state.
What interests Argentina would have related to China evade me at this time, but who knows
Well, Quebec IOTL came pretty damn close by the standards of Western democracy vis a vis the Union Nationale, so stranger things have happenedIt won't happen, but I'd get a mighty kick out of Canada falling to Integrationalism. That would give the Orangemen something to fret about
Good guesses
Portugal is a complete shit show, them becoming integralist as a result isn't a huge stretch.
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Republic Reborn
"...the most uneasy and unlikely of allies. Gore himself commented on the matter, noting in a letter written in early June "what curious thing it is, that where but a year ago our sons were off to the hills of Nashville and fields of Virginia to soak their red blood into those soils to arrest the advance to the damned Yankee, now we look at the Yank rifleman and extend our hands so he can pass us the weapon." Politically, it made for an extraordinarily awkward position on both ends. At least officially, the Hughes administration did not entirely support the Republican forces, maintaining its line in communiques that it was an "internal matter" within the "territory of the enemy combatant." This was wholly a diplomatic nicety for foreign consumption, because vessels passing via Nicaragua had a curious way of finding themselves at port in rebel-held Corpus Christi with guns, ammunition, and even explosives on hand.
Full-throated support for Texas was impossible in Philadelphia, however, due to the matter of abolition, an absolute key demand for the Americans and a question that badly split the Republicans in two. Hughes had become a convert to the cause over the past several years and the war had radicalized him; as early as 1914, he had declared that it would be the policy of the United States to end slavery wherever the Army occupied territory. His likely successor Elihu Root and the likely next Secretary of State, Henry Cabot Lodge, were even more dedicated militants, viewing the war as fundamentally a moral crusade against the evils of the "peculiar institution" and the society it supported. As such, the men who most in Philadelphia were certain would design the peace treaty with the Confederacy come 1917 were unwilling to bend until, as Cabot Lodge phrased it in a speech that summer, "every shackle on every wrist and ankle is broken forever and its iron melted."
In practical terms, this meant that the United States - while having made clear it viewed the upstart Republican government in Laredo as the legitimate government in Texas - could not formally support the Texan cause against the Ferguson Loyalists, even if their actions plainly revealed their preference. Furthermore, it placed Garner in a difficult situation. The core of Republican support came from the smallholders of West Texas and the Hill Country, urban laborers in the state's nascent industries, and Tejanos of the vast haciendas of South Texas who while in semi-peonage were nonetheless free men - in other words, the mob-like army marching upon San Antonio was hardly composed of slavery's most dedicated defenders. But abolition was still a deeply unpopular idea to many Republican fighters who took pride in their Texan ancestry and viewed the peculiar institution, and more fundamentally the strict social hierarchy flowing from legal white supremacy, as integral to their identity. It was also the case that Texas' rapid growth over the past several decades had been driven in part by domestic migration from elsewhere in the Confederacy rather than purely from overseas or Mexico and the United States; as such, especially in the balmier, more plantation-driven economy of East Texas, support for slavery remained extremely high, and so regardless of how the campaign advanced, a cleavage of Texas in two remained a grim possibility over the question if Republican leadership came out in favor of the question.
Garner thus pursued a policy of vacillation, remaining steadfast that his cause was simply to restore rightful Texan sovereignty "to all Texan clay" and refused to answer otherwise straightforward questions about whether he would support abolition. "We are Texans," he would huff, "and we do not have a price, at least not one we do not name ourselves." This was a point of view roundly opposed by Gore, who had come around to a strong position of support of abolition on its own merits years ago but had kept such views private in order to have a political career, and to a lesser extent Johnson, who came to believe that Texas would, eventually, be forced to yield on the matter, suggesting in a one-on-one meeting with Garner that both men referenced in their diaries that "Texas may eventually have to choose between the Negro or the Republic remaining in bondage." Gore and Johonson nevertheless never forced Garner to make such a choice in public out of the same pragmatic considerations of avoiding a massive rupture in Republican fortunes just as they seized San Antonio in a stunning shock in early June, a state of affairs that had reverberations across the Confederacy.
Though there is not much contemporaneous documentation that the United States overtly pursued policy in response to the precarious position of Garner and the Republicans on slavery, the actions of the Americans in Texas at least suggest that there was some level of understanding who the real enemy was and that the slave question would have to be saved for later, and that in the meantime the Republicans were an extremely useful internal catspaw. The skies of Texas were filled with American airships and airplanes that shot down Confederate enemies and kept the outgunned rebels from being strafed from the air; while the idea of Dallas being evacuated by the US Army was an absolute nonstarter, they nonetheless did not advance much further south and instead focused on consolidating attacks towards Arkansas via Texarkana and Fort Smith, putting further pressure on Confederate supply lines into Texas as cavalry and later infantry closed in on Little Rock from south, west and north, eventually seizing the city entirely almost bloodlessly in mid-July and effectively ending Arkansas' participation in the war.
This remarkable turnaround in Republican fortunes bolstered Garner's campaign for legitimacy as his forces marched rapidly from San Antonio northwards, and on July 4th, 1916 - the same day that Atlanta was falling far to the east - the Republican Army engaged with the Loyalist militia as well as Confederate forces immediately south of Austin. Despite being outgunned thanks to light artillery and some rudimentary landships, the Republicans with heavy losses eventually pressed their way into the city on July 7th and raised the Bonnie Blue Flag of rebellion over the Texas State Capitol after tearing down the Confederate Southern Cross from its grounds. Ferguson was unfortunately not in the city, having fled towards Galveston days earlier and seeming likely to evacuate Texas entirely as Confederate forces now under threat from both Corpus Christi and Austin by Republican divisions and the United States Army in Dallas and Texarkana regrouped in a line behind the lower Brazos and upper Neches Rivers.
With Austin in hand, the legitimacy to the public of the Republican force was largely consolidated - the course of the war from then on seemed in many ways inevitable, as it had been when Texas threw off Santa Ana in 1835 and Lincoln in 1862. [1] Now in this third revolution, Texas was ready to chart its own course - it only now needed to throw Richmond's forces at last over the Sabine to secure Garner's "every inch of Texan clay" pledge to his people..."
- Republic Reborn
[1] Remember - this book is written from a fairly nationalist Texan point of view
Full-throated support for Texas was impossible in Philadelphia, however, due to the matter of abolition, an absolute key demand for the Americans and a question that badly split the Republicans in two. Hughes had become a convert to the cause over the past several years and the war had radicalized him; as early as 1914, he had declared that it would be the policy of the United States to end slavery wherever the Army occupied territory. His likely successor Elihu Root and the likely next Secretary of State, Henry Cabot Lodge, were even more dedicated militants, viewing the war as fundamentally a moral crusade against the evils of the "peculiar institution" and the society it supported. As such, the men who most in Philadelphia were certain would design the peace treaty with the Confederacy come 1917 were unwilling to bend until, as Cabot Lodge phrased it in a speech that summer, "every shackle on every wrist and ankle is broken forever and its iron melted."
In practical terms, this meant that the United States - while having made clear it viewed the upstart Republican government in Laredo as the legitimate government in Texas - could not formally support the Texan cause against the Ferguson Loyalists, even if their actions plainly revealed their preference. Furthermore, it placed Garner in a difficult situation. The core of Republican support came from the smallholders of West Texas and the Hill Country, urban laborers in the state's nascent industries, and Tejanos of the vast haciendas of South Texas who while in semi-peonage were nonetheless free men - in other words, the mob-like army marching upon San Antonio was hardly composed of slavery's most dedicated defenders. But abolition was still a deeply unpopular idea to many Republican fighters who took pride in their Texan ancestry and viewed the peculiar institution, and more fundamentally the strict social hierarchy flowing from legal white supremacy, as integral to their identity. It was also the case that Texas' rapid growth over the past several decades had been driven in part by domestic migration from elsewhere in the Confederacy rather than purely from overseas or Mexico and the United States; as such, especially in the balmier, more plantation-driven economy of East Texas, support for slavery remained extremely high, and so regardless of how the campaign advanced, a cleavage of Texas in two remained a grim possibility over the question if Republican leadership came out in favor of the question.
Garner thus pursued a policy of vacillation, remaining steadfast that his cause was simply to restore rightful Texan sovereignty "to all Texan clay" and refused to answer otherwise straightforward questions about whether he would support abolition. "We are Texans," he would huff, "and we do not have a price, at least not one we do not name ourselves." This was a point of view roundly opposed by Gore, who had come around to a strong position of support of abolition on its own merits years ago but had kept such views private in order to have a political career, and to a lesser extent Johnson, who came to believe that Texas would, eventually, be forced to yield on the matter, suggesting in a one-on-one meeting with Garner that both men referenced in their diaries that "Texas may eventually have to choose between the Negro or the Republic remaining in bondage." Gore and Johonson nevertheless never forced Garner to make such a choice in public out of the same pragmatic considerations of avoiding a massive rupture in Republican fortunes just as they seized San Antonio in a stunning shock in early June, a state of affairs that had reverberations across the Confederacy.
Though there is not much contemporaneous documentation that the United States overtly pursued policy in response to the precarious position of Garner and the Republicans on slavery, the actions of the Americans in Texas at least suggest that there was some level of understanding who the real enemy was and that the slave question would have to be saved for later, and that in the meantime the Republicans were an extremely useful internal catspaw. The skies of Texas were filled with American airships and airplanes that shot down Confederate enemies and kept the outgunned rebels from being strafed from the air; while the idea of Dallas being evacuated by the US Army was an absolute nonstarter, they nonetheless did not advance much further south and instead focused on consolidating attacks towards Arkansas via Texarkana and Fort Smith, putting further pressure on Confederate supply lines into Texas as cavalry and later infantry closed in on Little Rock from south, west and north, eventually seizing the city entirely almost bloodlessly in mid-July and effectively ending Arkansas' participation in the war.
This remarkable turnaround in Republican fortunes bolstered Garner's campaign for legitimacy as his forces marched rapidly from San Antonio northwards, and on July 4th, 1916 - the same day that Atlanta was falling far to the east - the Republican Army engaged with the Loyalist militia as well as Confederate forces immediately south of Austin. Despite being outgunned thanks to light artillery and some rudimentary landships, the Republicans with heavy losses eventually pressed their way into the city on July 7th and raised the Bonnie Blue Flag of rebellion over the Texas State Capitol after tearing down the Confederate Southern Cross from its grounds. Ferguson was unfortunately not in the city, having fled towards Galveston days earlier and seeming likely to evacuate Texas entirely as Confederate forces now under threat from both Corpus Christi and Austin by Republican divisions and the United States Army in Dallas and Texarkana regrouped in a line behind the lower Brazos and upper Neches Rivers.
With Austin in hand, the legitimacy to the public of the Republican force was largely consolidated - the course of the war from then on seemed in many ways inevitable, as it had been when Texas threw off Santa Ana in 1835 and Lincoln in 1862. [1] Now in this third revolution, Texas was ready to chart its own course - it only now needed to throw Richmond's forces at last over the Sabine to secure Garner's "every inch of Texan clay" pledge to his people..."
- Republic Reborn
[1] Remember - this book is written from a fairly nationalist Texan point of view
Total Mobilization: The Economics of the Great American War
"...strained logistics to their breaking point. The Confederacy was already reliant on the rail network that crossed Georgia and its loss through Atlanta's investment and fall in early July was a critical, indeed mortal, wound to the war effort, but other cross-Confederate railroads still ran further south, with a particularly crucial route connecting Charleston and New Orleans via Savannah, Valdosta, and Montgomery now the key artery for Confederate logistics flowing from unmolested Louisiana and Mississippi as well as the foundries and steel mills of central Alabama to battlefields east. As if some form of divine punishment [1], however, the Atlantic hurricane season of 1916 was a particularly brutal one, with nine hurricanes making landfall in mainland North America between the middle of June and September. Tropical storms created rainy and muddy conditions all across the South, but particularly strong storms landing near New Orleans on the Gulf Coast in early July followed by a major storm making landfall over Charleston and causing some of the most severe flooding in North Carolina in decades just as the Confederate government was attempting to consolidate its position in Charlotte as a temporary wartime capital. The worst storm of all struck East Texas, a deluge rivaling the 1900 Galveston hurricane, that wreaked havoc over Confederate attempts to hold rebel forces at bay in a state that had declared independence and enjoyed more than tacit support from both the United States and Mexico.
The hurricane season thus caused severe delays on troop and supply movements at a time when both the soldiery and civilian populations of Dixie had hit their breaking points; some rail spurs were abandoned after being badly damaged in flooding, because there was insufficient iron or manpower to repair them. While most Confederate historians ignore the impact of the storms of June thru late August of 1916 - and in particular the devastating Pensacola hurricane that October, when the end was very clearly nigh - it bears mentioning that the markedly violent weather events of that summer came at perhaps the most inopportune time they could have and surely contributed to the rapid erosion over the next several months of Confederate warmaking capability that coincided with the final collapse of Confederate morale, fighting capability and government in late October and early November..."
- Total Mobilization: The Economics of the Great American War
[1] By a vengeful God or a TL author who detests what the CSA stands for? YMMV!
The hurricane season thus caused severe delays on troop and supply movements at a time when both the soldiery and civilian populations of Dixie had hit their breaking points; some rail spurs were abandoned after being badly damaged in flooding, because there was insufficient iron or manpower to repair them. While most Confederate historians ignore the impact of the storms of June thru late August of 1916 - and in particular the devastating Pensacola hurricane that October, when the end was very clearly nigh - it bears mentioning that the markedly violent weather events of that summer came at perhaps the most inopportune time they could have and surely contributed to the rapid erosion over the next several months of Confederate warmaking capability that coincided with the final collapse of Confederate morale, fighting capability and government in late October and early November..."
- Total Mobilization: The Economics of the Great American War
[1] By a vengeful God or a TL author who detests what the CSA stands for? YMMV!
Quite so - though it may not go full Estado Novo, which after all drew a fair bit from fascism and Franco's Spain
.....so a literal force of nature - mother nature -is what makes the Confederates realise they are completely defeated.
I read on wiki that this season was indeed particularly brutal, though in Texas' particular case, I note that IOTL, the landfall was further west around Corpus Christi, while ITTL you have it hit "slightly further east" (300 kms) into Loyalist east Texas instead.
PS: By the way, I at last caught up to the TL ^^. I just need to read through the Cincoverse thread though.
In a sense
The Cincoverse thread is much more random but hopefully has some fun Easter eggs!
Every Man a Kingfish: The Life and Rise to Power of Huey Long
"...conditions. Twenty men typically slept to one barrack in tight, small bunk beds, and the days were largely aimless, beyond roll calls at sunup, noon, and sundown. Long in his diaries remarked that prisoners at Camp Six played baseball or rugby regularly, because there was little else to do, though he befriended an Irish-born guard named Thomas O'Flanagan who passed along books.
Camp Six was, generally speaking, regarded as one of the better administered prisoner-of-war camps in the entire conflict, located on the outskirts of Chicago and supplied with sufficient food and clothing for the harsh winter of 1915-16. By the summer of 1916, the practice of limited prisoner exchanges had almost entirely ended as the Yanks elected to instead make the manpower squeeze for the Confederacy hurt even more, and new camps sprung up near the frontlines that were considerably less well-run. Horror stories of desperate sons of Dixie eating mice or the soles of their shoes for food, or being beaten by enthusiastically sadistic Negro camp guards recruited from Philadelphia or Cincinnati specifically for the purpose of breaking the wills of captured soldiers, trickled southwards for years after the war ended, and as he began to dabble in politics upon release Long began to embellish some of the tales of his time at Camp Six in order to more closely align himself with the ordeals of men captured well after the Fall of Nashville. In his recollections on the campaign trail, he had refused three prisoner exchanges so other men could go first, and he had had to protect a number of his fellow inmates from particularly savage guards - in reality, if anybody at Camp Six died, it was not of starvation or disease but of boredom.
What made Long's lengthy eighteen months in Illinois important for his political development, however, was his exposure to men and ideas from across the Confederacy and his realization of what had laid at the heart of the NFLP or Tillmanism or any other rejection of the plantation oligarchy he had always hated. There was so much in common with the men of the high Appalachian hollers of Kentucky or Tennessee, or the difficult Carolina Sandhills, or the fruit fields and cattle runs of central Florida. In long, late night debates inside their barracks, Long and his fellow inmates established a certain beleaguered camaraderie where they grew closer and more understanding of much of what was going on in the Confederacy at that time, and much of Long's political sophistication can be traced to those discussions in the bunks or around a fire at Camp Six..."
- Every Man a Kingfish: The Life and Rise to Power of Huey Long
Camp Six was, generally speaking, regarded as one of the better administered prisoner-of-war camps in the entire conflict, located on the outskirts of Chicago and supplied with sufficient food and clothing for the harsh winter of 1915-16. By the summer of 1916, the practice of limited prisoner exchanges had almost entirely ended as the Yanks elected to instead make the manpower squeeze for the Confederacy hurt even more, and new camps sprung up near the frontlines that were considerably less well-run. Horror stories of desperate sons of Dixie eating mice or the soles of their shoes for food, or being beaten by enthusiastically sadistic Negro camp guards recruited from Philadelphia or Cincinnati specifically for the purpose of breaking the wills of captured soldiers, trickled southwards for years after the war ended, and as he began to dabble in politics upon release Long began to embellish some of the tales of his time at Camp Six in order to more closely align himself with the ordeals of men captured well after the Fall of Nashville. In his recollections on the campaign trail, he had refused three prisoner exchanges so other men could go first, and he had had to protect a number of his fellow inmates from particularly savage guards - in reality, if anybody at Camp Six died, it was not of starvation or disease but of boredom.
What made Long's lengthy eighteen months in Illinois important for his political development, however, was his exposure to men and ideas from across the Confederacy and his realization of what had laid at the heart of the NFLP or Tillmanism or any other rejection of the plantation oligarchy he had always hated. There was so much in common with the men of the high Appalachian hollers of Kentucky or Tennessee, or the difficult Carolina Sandhills, or the fruit fields and cattle runs of central Florida. In long, late night debates inside their barracks, Long and his fellow inmates established a certain beleaguered camaraderie where they grew closer and more understanding of much of what was going on in the Confederacy at that time, and much of Long's political sophistication can be traced to those discussions in the bunks or around a fire at Camp Six..."
- Every Man a Kingfish: The Life and Rise to Power of Huey Long
Now I'm thinking of a thread on TTL's version of AH.com where people wonder if maybe the Confederate "dedazo" (to use the Spanish-language term for such a move) of 1891 had landed on Roger Mills Texas would have stayed in the Confederacy.
It had been too long since we last saw Mr. Kentucky Fried Peronism. Also nice to see ever-eternal politician tradition of embellishing your life story.
The easiest way would probably be to have the US-Argentina axis survive and then get the US and China on opposing sides of a war, with Argentina declaring war on China in a move sort of like when Poland declared war on Japan in OTL WWII (although maybe without China pretending Argentina didn't declare war on them, actually). Although without the US being as much of a hyperpower as it is IOTL it may be somewhat harder to get it and Beijing directly opposed to each other, especially without the US having any Asian possessions or interests (the US doesn't even have Hawaii, which makes its control over the Pacific, and reach to the Western Pacific, far more tenuous). And the China-Argentina thing of it would be barely a step above diplomatic formality, anyway.
A populist demagogue embellishing his wartime suffering and valor to score cheap political points with a pissed off population...wonder where you got inspiration for that from lol.
Was slavery allowed in the IT under the Confederates? Did the treaty with the IT get rid of Slavery?
IMO, at absolute *worst* in 1930, Slavery will exist in the IT, Texas, and Brazil. I think Brazil's Slave population will continue to drop, at this point, the Law of Free Birth of 1871 would make the youngest slave 35, yes there are certainly loopholes, but I'm not sure who had more free people of largely Negro descent at the start of the war, Brazil or the United States.
Now, I'm not sure what would happen for a Slave in Texas 1925 (presuming Texas still has Slavery at that point) who managed to get across the border into Shreveport, but that is a *lot* different than having to make it to Branson, Missouri before the war.
IMO, at absolute *worst* in 1930, Slavery will exist in the IT, Texas, and Brazil. I think Brazil's Slave population will continue to drop, at this point, the Law of Free Birth of 1871 would make the youngest slave 35, yes there are certainly loopholes, but I'm not sure who had more free people of largely Negro descent at the start of the war, Brazil or the United States.
Now, I'm not sure what would happen for a Slave in Texas 1925 (presuming Texas still has Slavery at that point) who managed to get across the border into Shreveport, but that is a *lot* different than having to make it to Branson, Missouri before the war.
Dedazo is a very good term for how Longstreet operated his machine, and I could definitely see an argument being made that a mollified Mills keeps Texas in the CSA longer or maybe even permanently - though the issues of Texas’ increasing demographic and economic disproportion to the other eleven states, and it’s physical distance from other parts of the CSA, is a problem that will eventually have to be resolved.
Glad to assist!
One wonders indeed! Lol
The Five Tribes absolutely allowed slavery - it’s why the Confederacy supported them and absorbed the IT to begin with.
And the oldest slave in Brazil would be 45ish, rather than 35, making the demographic decline of slavery even more acute
I'd expect that any stories about Sadistic Negro Camp guards would have them be from Washington, DC or Baltimore. The only reason that I could see that expectation subverted is if DC/Baltimore Negros are reserved for stories about Sadism in combat. (The first troops into Atlanta for example).
(In fact, I could see DC and certain parts of Maryland & Pennsylvania being excluded from any Draft Law that the USA has. I'm not sure it would significantly affect things in terms of volunteers, but might be politically opportune.)
The IT may get tricky here, In some ways slavery in the IT might be viewed closer to Slavery in places like the Tunisia, Ottoman Empire or Ethiopia where since it isn't whites enslaving Negros it sort of goes into a different category. It will still be viewed as Odd, but a lesser target of the Abolitionists than Texas. (But definitely *not* surviving to the 21st century, since at some point Texas will start advertising that its oil is pumped by Free Hands.
)Yeah, my math degree isn't worth what it once was. At 45, the only ones that make sense to keep financially would be house slaves. And 18 year old free laborer will be able to pick so much more than a 60 year old slave that it will be worth paying a wage and freeing the 60 year old slave so they don't have to feed them.