France might have a few things to say about thatI would guess Cameroon, and already I can see another timeline forming in my head
Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread
- Thread starter Beedok
- Start date
Cameroon, formally Liberia 2: Liberiaer!, is a country in western central Africa…
i dont exactly think this counts as a slur in this context, especially since dudley is a black man
True but I'm not taking any risks of misinterpretation because I'd like to remain ban/kick-free
So Idi Amin made a big deal of wanting to invade Kenya to reclaim land, does anyone know if he specifically said which bits he wanted to take?
I'm assuming it's this land:
I'm assuming it's this land:
So Idi Amin made a big deal of wanting to invade Kenya to reclaim land, does anyone know if he specifically said which bits he wanted to take?
I'm assuming it's this land:
The day Idi Amin wanted to annex western Kenya
The former Ugandan leader claimed that it was his duty as the supreme commander of the Armed Forces to liberate his country’s territories.
www.theeastafrican.co.ke
"Amin wanted back all Kenyan districts that were part of Uganda before the colonial re-demarcation of the territorial boundaries. These included Turkana, part of Lake Rudolf (now Lake Turkana), West Pokot, Tranz-Nzioa, Bungoma, Busia, Kakamega, Central Nyanza, South Nyanza, Narok, Kisii, Kericho, Nakuru, Uasin Gishu, Elgeyo, Marakwet, Nyandarua, Nandi, Kisumu, Eldoret, Tambach, Maji Moto, Maji Mazuri, Gilgil, Nakuru, Lake Baringo and Naivasha."
Aka, most likely everything that Uganda owned under a British protectorate. Though it could be more or less. Not like this guy was above claiming a little extra off the top
Kaliningrad is not a warm water port, that's a myth, it freezes in the winter, at least it used to, read https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/russian-east-prussia.475753/#post-19533148.
So Idi Amin made a big deal of wanting to invade Kenya to reclaim land, does anyone know if he specifically said which bits he wanted to take?
I'm assuming it's this land:
Found an article here giving some possibly legitimate specifics:The day Idi Amin wanted to annex western Kenya
The former Ugandan leader claimed that it was his duty as the supreme commander of the Armed Forces to liberate his country’s territories.
"Amin wanted back all Kenyan districts that were part of Uganda before the colonial re-demarcation of the territorial boundaries. These included Turkana, part of Lake Rudolf (now Lake Turkana), West Pokot, Tranz-Nzioa, Bungoma, Busia, Kakamega, Central Nyanza, South Nyanza, Narok, Kisii, Kericho, Nakuru, Uasin Gishu, Elgeyo, Marakwet, Nyandarua, Nandi, Kisumu, Eldoret, Tambach, Maji Moto, Maji Mazuri, Gilgil, Nakuru, Lake Baringo and Naivasha."
Aka, most likely everything that Uganda owned under a British protectorate. Though it could be more or less. Not like this guy was above claiming a little extra off the top
My alternate history series features a wanked Idi Amin that successfully establishes this "Greater Uganda" featured in these maps, including this specific section with Tanzania, glad to see this proposal get mentioned in here, given how obscure and niche it is, years ago when I was trying to find the map for it, I could only find vague descriptions of it and not maps, I was finally able to find a low-resolution map of it on an Ugandan Facebook page, where Ugandans and Kenyans were arguing and fighting each other in the comments section over this, lol.Yeah, that's the thing that did him in, it was over this spot specifically:
Found an article here giving some possibly legitimate specifics:The day Idi Amin wanted to annex western Kenya
The former Ugandan leader claimed that it was his duty as the supreme commander of the Armed Forces to liberate his country’s territories.
"Amin wanted back all Kenyan districts that were part of Uganda before the colonial re-demarcation of the territorial boundaries. These included Turkana, part of Lake Rudolf (now Lake Turkana), West Pokot, Tranz-Nzioa, Bungoma, Busia, Kakamega, Central Nyanza, South Nyanza, Narok, Kisii, Kericho, Nakuru, Uasin Gishu, Elgeyo, Marakwet, Nyandarua, Nandi, Kisumu, Eldoret, Tambach, Maji Moto, Maji Mazuri, Gilgil, Nakuru, Lake Baringo and Naivasha."
Aka, most likely everything that Uganda owned under a British protectorate. Though it could be more or less. Not like this guy was above claiming a little extra off the top
I think this'd be it? I used an older map with the counties, but it still seems kind of strange.
So, I "threatened" y'all with more info on German state reorganization, so here is some (!) of my new findings. Due to me not yet having finished one book I'm currently reading on the subject (and due to fears of hitting the character limit with this post), I decided to only share now my findings on plans for the Rhineland and Hesse between 1945 and 1949, with some mentions of future proposals and referendums.
Section #1: The Personal Accounts of Ludwig Bergsträsser & The Creation of Hesse
I stumbled across two sources created by Ludwig Bergsträsser, a Social Democratic politician who worked closely with the American military administration, even serving as the “President of the German Government in Hesse”, which was formally responsible for the former Free State of Hesse (but effectively excluding Rheinhessen, which was under French administration from June 1945 onwards), from April 14th 1945 to October 12th 1945, when the state of Groß-Hessen was created. He continued to serve as the president of the district of Darmstadt within Groß-Hessen until 1948. He continued to be active in German politics until 1953.
Here are four proposals related to Hesse I wanna highlight based on Bergsträsser’s account.
The first is one made by Bergsträsser himself, along with others, in a statement directed at Major W. Williver, head of the Civil Administration division, published on July 26th 1945.In it Bergsträsser describes that a future Hessian state, potentially called Rhein-Main, could consist of the following territories:
Bergsträsser mentions a different proposal, corroborated by General Lucius D. Clay in his book "Decision in Germany" (1950) , to divide Hesse into two states: Hesse-Nassau (consisting out of the Free State of Hesse minus Rheinhessen as well as former province of Nassau excluding the region around Montabaur) with its capital at Darmstadt and Hesse (basically consisting out of the province of Kurhessen) with its capital at Marburg. This proposal would have, according to Bergsträsser, connected most of the Rhein-Main metropolitan area and allowed for Oberhessen to be connected to Starkenburg, but it would have created a possibly non-viable state with the other Hesse. This new Hesse-Nassau would have been a smaller version of the Gau Hessen-Nassau that existed under Nazi rule in 1944.
A similar proposal to divide Hesse into two is listed by Mühlhausen, where he instead states that the Americans considered turning the former province of Hesse-Nassau into a state and the Free State of Hesse(-Darmstadt) into another, basically a continuation of the Weimar-era borders (if one were to dismember Prussia and turn its provinces into states). These two divided Hesse proposals were however very short-lived, apparently due to the American administrators listening to local Germans' concerns.
Lastly I wanna mention a proposal Bergsträsser apparently worked out for a meeting in Berlin in late 1946, where he suggested that Hesse could expand westwards and take over the former district of Koblenz of the Rhine Province (as well as Aschaffenburg, again, to the east), while “Westfalen-Rheinland” would receive the district of Trier (excluding the Saar area) and “Württemberg-Baden” would receive the former Bavarian Palatinate. This was to be part of a project to divide Germany into eight or nine states, probably including the Soviet occupation zone, Bergsträsser was unclear on whether it was just for the occupation zones of the Western Allies or not.
Sources:
Section #2: The Rhineland, the Saar, and the Palatinate
For the Rhineland, I’m gonna use a chronological approach, outlining both the implementation of occupation zones and temporary administrations, as well as early state formations and French annexation attempts.
Sources:
Section #1: The Personal Accounts of Ludwig Bergsträsser & The Creation of Hesse
I stumbled across two sources created by Ludwig Bergsträsser, a Social Democratic politician who worked closely with the American military administration, even serving as the “President of the German Government in Hesse”, which was formally responsible for the former Free State of Hesse (but effectively excluding Rheinhessen, which was under French administration from June 1945 onwards), from April 14th 1945 to October 12th 1945, when the state of Groß-Hessen was created. He continued to serve as the president of the district of Darmstadt within Groß-Hessen until 1948. He continued to be active in German politics until 1953.
Here are four proposals related to Hesse I wanna highlight based on Bergsträsser’s account.
The first is one made by Bergsträsser himself, along with others, in a statement directed at Major W. Williver, head of the Civil Administration division, published on July 26th 1945.In it Bergsträsser describes that a future Hessian state, potentially called Rhein-Main, could consist of the following territories:
- the former Free State of Hesse, ideally including Rheinhessen but potentially excluding Worms
- the Prussian province of Kurhessen
- the Prussian province of Nassau/Wiesbaden (Bergsträsser does describe that the Americans left Nassau as is at that time), but excluding the Kreis Biedenkopf and the northern sections of the Kreis Dillenburg within the Westerwald (whose industries were too closely connected to the Rhine-Ruhr area)
- the Mainviereck around Aschaffenburg, because that city and the surrounding towns were generally trading westwards rather than southeastwards towards Bavaria
- Edit: I should also note that, according to Mühlhausen, Bergsträsser also made one suggestion to exclude Kurhessen from this state due to it not being economically connected to the Rhein-Main metropolitan area)
Bergsträsser mentions a different proposal, corroborated by General Lucius D. Clay in his book "Decision in Germany" (1950) , to divide Hesse into two states: Hesse-Nassau (consisting out of the Free State of Hesse minus Rheinhessen as well as former province of Nassau excluding the region around Montabaur) with its capital at Darmstadt and Hesse (basically consisting out of the province of Kurhessen) with its capital at Marburg. This proposal would have, according to Bergsträsser, connected most of the Rhein-Main metropolitan area and allowed for Oberhessen to be connected to Starkenburg, but it would have created a possibly non-viable state with the other Hesse. This new Hesse-Nassau would have been a smaller version of the Gau Hessen-Nassau that existed under Nazi rule in 1944.
A similar proposal to divide Hesse into two is listed by Mühlhausen, where he instead states that the Americans considered turning the former province of Hesse-Nassau into a state and the Free State of Hesse(-Darmstadt) into another, basically a continuation of the Weimar-era borders (if one were to dismember Prussia and turn its provinces into states). These two divided Hesse proposals were however very short-lived, apparently due to the American administrators listening to local Germans' concerns.
Lastly I wanna mention a proposal Bergsträsser apparently worked out for a meeting in Berlin in late 1946, where he suggested that Hesse could expand westwards and take over the former district of Koblenz of the Rhine Province (as well as Aschaffenburg, again, to the east), while “Westfalen-Rheinland” would receive the district of Trier (excluding the Saar area) and “Württemberg-Baden” would receive the former Bavarian Palatinate. This was to be part of a project to divide Germany into eight or nine states, probably including the Soviet occupation zone, Bergsträsser was unclear on whether it was just for the occupation zones of the Western Allies or not.
Sources:
- “Die Gründung des Landes Hessen 1945” by Walter Mühlhausen in “Blickpunkt Hessen” (4/2005)
- "Demokratischer Neubeginn in Hessen 1945-1949" by Walter Mühlhausen
- “Befreiung, Besatzung, Neubeginn - Tagebuch des Darmstädter Regierungspräsidenten 1945-1948” by Ludwig Bergsträsser
- “Zeugnisse zur Entstehungsgeschichte des Landes Hessen: Mitgeteilt und kommentiert von Ludwig Bergsträsser” in “Vierteljahresheft für Zeitgeschichte” (4/1957)
Section #2: The Rhineland, the Saar, and the Palatinate
For the Rhineland, I’m gonna use a chronological approach, outlining both the implementation of occupation zones and temporary administrations, as well as early state formations and French annexation attempts.
- According to Loth, French Minister of Armaments Jean Monnet proposed in the summer of 1943 that France should push for a post-war “European State of Heavy Industry”, consisting of the Ruhr industrial area, the Rhineland, the Saar Basin, and Luxembourg. This would allow for an easier reconstruction in Western Europe and neuter future German aggression by depriving it from most of its arms industry. Monnet would later become the founding father of the European Coal and Steel Community
- Before the borders of the French occupation zone were settled, de Gaulle apparently suggested that the French occupation zone should consist of the entire historic states of Baden & Hessen, the Rhineland up to the north of Cologne (likely excluding only the district of Düsseldorf) as well as the portions of the government district of Wiesbaden north of Frankfurt (s. Klöckler), with that last probably resulting in an American corridor between Oberhessen and Starkenburg; Baumgart meanwhile describes that the French were even proposing all of former Hesse-Nassau as well as Württemberg to be part of their zone of occupation
- Under de Gaulle, the ideal future of Germany should be the recreation of a confederation of smaller states with varying influences from the Allies instead of a federal Germany (favored by the Americans)
- In December 1944 de Gaulle suggested to Stalin that the Rhineland should be attached to France, while the Ruhr area should be internationalized; apparently the intention was to include Cologne in the French Rhineland and have the border to the Ruhr area be a bit north of that city, which means that likely the district of Düsseldorf may have been made part of the internalized Ruhr area
- When French and American troops entered Germany, the French were mostly used to fight in modern Baden-Württemberg, pushing up to Vorarlberg in Austria; the Americans occupied most of the Rhineland and the Palatinate, however in April 1945 they ceded four counties in the southern Palatinate to the French troops as their first formal occupation zone
- The Americans spent the months of March to May creating two competing administrations in the Rhineland: the Military District Rhine Province based in Koblenz and run by Dr. Johannes “Hans” Fuchs (Zentrum) and the Military Government District Westmark-Südhessen (sometimes also called Saarland-Pfalz-Südhessen) based in Neustadt and run by Hermann Heimerich (SPD). Both had overlapping jurisdiction over Rheinhessen, the Palatinate, and the Saar Basin, and on May 25th 1945 the former Rhenish districts of Koblenz and Trier were put under Heimerich’s control, with his government being renamed to Mittelrhein-Saar; these parallel administrations a great confusion among more local officials; also noteworthy is that apparently (according to Galonska) there were also considerations to give the Hessian district of Starkenburg to the Westmark-Südhessen administration
- On June 20th 1945 the British took over the northern portions of the Rhine Province and appointed Fuchs as the head of their administration of the North Rhine Province, effectively ending his bid to govern a Greater Rhineland
- Between July 10th and July 15th 1945 the French began to take over their formalized occupation zone, replacing Mittelrhein-Saar with four smaller administrative units: Trier (identical to the pre-war Rhenish district of Trier), Koblenz (the Rhenish district of Koblenz, expanded by the counties of Sankt Goarshausen, Unterlahnkreis, Unterwesterwaldkreis and Oberwesterwaldkreis; jointly often referred to as the district of Montabaur), the Pfalz (the Bavarian Palatinate and Rheinhessen; sometimes referred to as Hessen-Pfalz), and the Saar (at first identical to the historic Saar Basin)
- In the French occupation zone small regionalist and separatist movements pop up, such as the “Union des Amis de la France” (advocates for the annexation of the Palatinate to France) and the Rheinisch-Demokratische Union (advocating for a pro-West “democratic liberal” independent Rhineland including the Bavarian Palatinate and Rheinhessen); there were also similar movements in the southern zone.
- On November 19th 1945 the merger of the administrations of Koblenz and Trier is announced and on January 2nd 1946 the new administration of Rheinland-Hessen-Nassau is formed; Hessen-Pfalz and the Saar Basin remain unaffected for now
- On January 10th 1946, François de Puaux, deputy of the French ambassador in Baden-Baden Jacques Tarbé de Saint-Hardouin, proposes the creation of a centralized Rhineland state in the northern French occupation zone in Germany with its capital at Mainz; this would include the Saar Basin but was supposed to be under long-term French influence; in principle this plan was supported by de Gaulle and Pierre Marie Koenig, the military commander in Rheinland-Hessen-Nassau (Source: R. Hudemann’s “Entstehung des Landes und seiner Verfassung” in “40 Jahre Rheinland-Pfalz - Eine politische Landeskunde”)
- On January 20th 1946 Charles de Gaulle steps down as Chairman of the Provisional Government of the French Republic, being succeeded by the Socialist Félix Gouin; with de Gaulle leaving, plans to annex parts of Germany into France are abandoned and the idea that small German-speaking states (besides Saarland) in France’s sphere of influence could be created becomes less feasible as American and British cooperation in their occupation zones becomes clearer
- The Saar Basin is detached from the French Occupation Zone and turned into its entity, the Saar Protectorate, in February 1946; additionally the Saar Basin was expanded by the counties of Saarburg and Wadern, and portions of Trier-Land and Birkenfeld. These changes were aimed at increasing the degree of self-sufficiency for the territory.
- Some of these changes to the Saarland, including the annexation of most of Saarburg, would be reverted in 1947 after British and American protestations but despite the wishes of some of the populace.
- Meanwhile in the British zone, Konrad Adenauer and other Rhenish politicians still fight for the creation of a separate Rhineland, ideally one that includes the districts of Koblenz and Trier; they fail and temporarily the creation of a state of Nord-Rheinland is considered
- Rhineland-Palatinate is formed on August 30th 1946 by French decree, a week after in the British announce the formation of the state of North Rhine-Westphalia; at this point Adenauer begins lobbying for the unification of Koblenz and Trier to the nascent NRW
- Rhineland-Palatinate would survive until the present day, despite numerous discussions taking place about its partition both before the formation of the Federal Republic of Germany and after, with any partition being seen as unlikely after failed plebiscites for the matter in 1955/56
Sources:
- “Eine Rheinprovinz, zwei Länder und die Frage der Länderneugliederung nach 1945” by Beate Dorfey [which is an online article you can find here] and which also contains some cool map proposals that go beyond the scope of this post specifically
- “Geografie und Landeskunde” by Rainer Freyer [another online article which you can find here]
- “Rheinland-Pfalz und Hessen 1945-1996 - Landesparteiensysteme im Föderalismus” by Andreas Galonska
- “Die unvollendete Annexion - Frankreich und die Saar 1943 bis 1947” by Wilfried Loth
- “Entstehung des Landes und seiner Verfassung” by Rainer Hudemann in “40 Jahre Rheinland-Pfalz - Eine politische Landeskunde” (ed. Peter Haungs)
- “Abendland - Alpenland - Alemannien” by Jürgen Klöckler
- “Der Separatismus in der Pfalz nach 1945” by Hans-Jürgen Wünschel in “Oberrheinische Studien Band V” (ed. Hansmartin Schwarzmaier)
- “Voraussetzungen und Wesen der rheinland-pfälzischen Verfassung” by Winfried Baumgart in “Die Entstehung der Verfassung für Rheinland-Pfalz” (ed. Helmut Klaas)
Last edited:
I also remembered I could check OpenStreetMap, so here's the full length of the Kagera River so you can see it more clearly.Yeah, that's the thing that did him in, it was over this spot specifically:
Side note, does anyone know how to actually download the XML files OpenStreetMap has? Every time I try to do it it keeps punching out an error.
A distinct thread connecting alternate proposals for all regions of Germany would be great!
Thank you for your research!