Willmatron
Banned
Could at any time before or during the Civil War New York had sided with the Confederacy? While I wouldn't expect it to raise an army maybe it could help out in some other way.
New York Sides with the Confederacy
- Thread starter Willmatron
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katchen
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Here you go:
The Secession Movement in the Middle Atlantic States [Hardcover]
William C. Wrighthttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0838611524/lewrockwell/#
William C. Wright (Author)
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Available on Amazon starting at $10.08
Not only New York looked seriously at seceding during the 1850s according to this historian, but Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and Delaware as well. There were serious proposals for the Mid-Atlantic States to join as a separate "Central Confederacy" as well as joining the Southern Confederacy. There was a lot of sentiment for MId Alantic Staters not being in the same country as "puritanical New Englanders". There could be TLs both directions. The Mid Atlantic States join the Confederacy, in which case it's probably game set and match for the Confederates and we may even see nationwide legalization of slavery under the Dred Scott Decision
or a separate Central Confederacy.
The Secession Movement in the Middle Atlantic States [Hardcover]
William C. Wrighthttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0838611524/lewrockwell/#
William C. Wright (Author)
› Visit Amazon's William C. Wright Page
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Available on Amazon starting at $10.08
Not only New York looked seriously at seceding during the 1850s according to this historian, but Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and Delaware as well. There were serious proposals for the Mid-Atlantic States to join as a separate "Central Confederacy" as well as joining the Southern Confederacy. There was a lot of sentiment for MId Alantic Staters not being in the same country as "puritanical New Englanders". There could be TLs both directions. The Mid Atlantic States join the Confederacy, in which case it's probably game set and match for the Confederates and we may even see nationwide legalization of slavery under the Dred Scott Decision
or a separate Central Confederacy.Here you go:
The Secession Movement in the Middle Atlantic States [Hardcover]
William C. Wright
William C. Wright (Author)
› Visit Amazon's William C. Wright Page
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Be th
Available on Amazon starting at $10.08
Not only New York looked seriously at seceding during the 1850s according to this historian, but Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and Delaware as well. There were serious proposals for the Mid-Atlantic States to join as a separate "Central Confederacy" as well as joining the Southern Confederacy. There was a lot of sentiment for MId Alantic Staters not being in the same country as "puritanical New Englanders". There could be TLs both directions. The Mid Atlantic States join the Confederacy, in which case it's probably game set and match for the Confederates and we may even see nationwide legalization of slavery under the Dred Scott Decision
But not an immediate prospect except conceivably in Maryland. Iirc NY had a Republican Governor and legislature in 1861, as had NJ and PA, so it's hard to see how it gets off the ground.
If they do, then it provides the South with quite a few more men, a foot hold into the North, industry, etc. Probably a much different outcome for the CSA, potentially leading to either a negotiation for peace, or a Southern Victory.
Except of course that if NY was so politically different from OTL as to support the South, it is unlikely that there would ever be an ACW.
In such circs it would almost certainly have voted against Lincoln in 1860, and so prevented his election.
The (Democrat) Mayor of New York City and his allies (primarily businessmen) were actually planning a minor coup against federal authorities in the city to break off New York, Brooklyn, the rest of Long Island, and Staten Island as a Free City. This was intended to maintain the income of the businessmen of New York, who made quite a bit of money shipping cotton overseas. Mayor Wood went so far as to publicly ask the council to secede. He would be elected to congress as a Copperhead Democrat.
The sentiment in favor of such a secession mostly evaporated after Ft. Sumter.
To have a successful Free City of New York, you need to have the secession take place before Ft. Sumter. The question is how much popular support the Free City would actually have even after such an attack--if the Mayor's moves are unpopular, then he'll be removed from power and hanged for treason by morning.
The New York rebels would have to seize Fort Lafayette and Fort Schuyler, in order to enable ships to continue to enter the harbor.
EDIT: I actually give New York reasonably good odds at winning at least one battle if secession has popular support. New York City raised 30,000 men by May of 1861--if Mayor Wood can inspire the same loyalty as Ft. Sumter did, then he would have at his command an army of equal size to that of the Union or Confederate forces at Bull Run. And he'd have the Brooklyn Navy Yard, and presumably more ships per mile of coast line than the Confederates did.
But to get that kind of confidence, the federal authorities would need to very ham-fistedly and incompetently try to reassert order as a first strike.
The sentiment in favor of such a secession mostly evaporated after Ft. Sumter.
To have a successful Free City of New York, you need to have the secession take place before Ft. Sumter. The question is how much popular support the Free City would actually have even after such an attack--if the Mayor's moves are unpopular, then he'll be removed from power and hanged for treason by morning.
The New York rebels would have to seize Fort Lafayette and Fort Schuyler, in order to enable ships to continue to enter the harbor.
EDIT: I actually give New York reasonably good odds at winning at least one battle if secession has popular support. New York City raised 30,000 men by May of 1861--if Mayor Wood can inspire the same loyalty as Ft. Sumter did, then he would have at his command an army of equal size to that of the Union or Confederate forces at Bull Run. And he'd have the Brooklyn Navy Yard, and presumably more ships per mile of coast line than the Confederates did.
But to get that kind of confidence, the federal authorities would need to very ham-fistedly and incompetently try to reassert order as a first strike.
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If New York sides with the Confederacy, it won't be a SA any more. It'll be the pre-ACW status quo, with slavery in the South and free states in the North. This will lead to a later war somewhere down the line. Of course, should New York secede without any of the other northern states, support for secession there will be even lower than in Virginia, North Carolina and Texas, and of course, it'll be surrounded by New England, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, all of which will be powerful free states.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Here you go:
The Secession Movement in the Middle Atlantic States [Hardcover]
William C. Wrighthttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0838611524/lewrockwell/#
William C. Wright (Author)
› Visit Amazon's William C. Wright Page
Find all the books, read about the author, and more.
See search results for this author
Are you an author? Learn about Author Central
(Author)
Be th
Available on Amazon starting at $10.08
Not only New York looked seriously at seceding during the 1850s according to this historian, but Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and Delaware as well. There were serious proposals for the Mid-Atlantic States to join as a separate "Central Confederacy" as well as joining the Southern Confederacy. There was a lot of sentiment for MId Alantic Staters not being in the same country as "puritanical New Englanders". There could be TLs both directions. The Mid Atlantic States join the Confederacy, in which case it's probably game set and match for the Confederates and we may even see nationwide legalization of slavery under the Dred Scott Decision
Fuck that's an expensive book, but it looks good!
OK 10 dollars is not TOO bad tho it is used but then postage
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
You're welcome. For more details, here's an NY Times article on it.
And here's a map of New York City in 1860, because now I'm legitimately curious as to how a popular secession against state and federal authorities in the New York area would work.
The city needs food. The island itself was by this point almost entirely urbanized--the farms were in what's now the Bronx, Staten Island, Queens, and southern Brooklyn.
That means that one of the top priorities of the Army of New York will be to prevent federal ships from interdicting the East River or otherwise preventing the flow of food into the city. The Army may also need to hold farmland north of the city. But, then again, farmers further up the Hudson might have no other market than New York for their produce--Federal attempts to prevent the sale of food to New York would be resented upstream, I think.
The priority of the Navy of New York will be to prevent a federal blockade of the largest port in the country, and indeed to try and keep trade with the South open (the cause of the secession in this scenario, after all). The first battle of ironclads in this war might indeed take place immediately south of New York Harbor.
A federal landing at any point on Long Island would be undesirable. Such a landing would deploy troops away from the protective guns at the entrances to New York Harbor and the East River, and allow federal troops to concentrate for a march west to Brooklyn. So the Navy of New York will also patrol the coasts of Long Island to ensure that no such landing succeeds.
It will come down to how much popular support Mayor Wood can get for secession, how much support from Britain and France New York can get (the Union blockading the South and trying to close off the biggest port in the US? That's a bigger problem for world trade than it was IOTL), and how competent New York's armies are, and how competent her "Army of the Hudson" opponent are.
It's a possibility, and in fact a lot of Southerners were counting on just such a splintering. There were parallel secession movements in California (planning to include Oregon and Washington in a new Pacific Republic), and the South was really counting on the Upper Mississippi states breaking off in order to regain access to the Mississippi for trade. Matter of fact, the State of New Jersey was planning its own, entirely-unrelated-to-NYC secession.
Then South Carolina had to go ruin the whole balkanization party with its artillery barrage.
If it gets that far, with the other states going their own way in a Nullification Crisis Gone Mad, then what's left of the Union might have no choice but to recognize its new neighbors.
So the trick, I think, is to get New York's secession up to full steam before Spring of 1861, when the situation over Federal forts in Southern ports reaches a breaking point. If New York goes its own way, then confidence in the Union might break down enough for the others to go for it.