The only thing this TL lacks at the moment is the proper description of the beginning of divergence, but keep this going and this might actually rival Male Rising in the exoticity of its world in the future 
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Minarets of Atlantis
- Thread starter Essam
- Start date
I expect that there will be a great deal of mutual assimilation between the Atlanteans and the Mound Builders - most of it will be the Mound Builders being Islamized and Berberized, but that kind of thing always goes both ways. By the present, their society may have as many Native American trappings as, say, the American Southwest of OTL.
Plenty of plans, don't worry. I will try to mention them in coming updates...we are still building up to the opening XVIII century chapters. But, ne t'inquiète pas, the crypto-Jews of New Mexico are in a perfect position for a major plot line
Faeelin said:
Oh ye of little faith! It is the idea of Atlantis, a Muslim New World, that we are routing for
Badshah said:
altwere said:
Novak said:
Fairdowner said:
Uruk said:
Merci!
I hope not to disappoint, and please do let me know if the bouncing around of time periods and plotlines is proving distracting to read. Personally, I quite like it but that could be just me. Again, many thanks
Novak said:
There's a reason Muslims of TTL will know the Caribbean as the Sea of the Mujahideen.
"Jihadists of the Sea," or thereabout, is roughly the translation the Arabic term for the corsairs of Barbary who's presence will be all too-well known in TTL Caribbean
chr92 said:
Thank you, again. I like the style of dropping hints through personal narratives, and later filling them in with other narratives, or, if necessary, short "history lessons"/encyclopedia-style entries. I feel, and I think some others on this Board do as well, AH often lacks a personal touch and human aspect. I particularly love Jonathan Edelstein's Malê Rising and Nassirisimo's With the Crescent Above Us for this exact reason.
I especially loved that painting as well ignoring how it may be more Oriental than Moorish. As the painters themselves would have thought - who cares?!
Ridwan Asher said:
Monsieur Asher! I was waiting for you and your Ottomanophilia to come across my humble TL
Your compliments and comparisons are really humbling and too much. The point of divergence will be sometime during the Granda War, I haven't gone into too much detail, but Boabdil abandoning Granada as his uncle gains more popularity (I'm think his mother Aicha switching her support for her son to her brother-in-law) is roughly the POD. I have mentioned previously that the Granada War theatre ended with Mohamed XIII (Al-Zagal)'s final charge at Ferdinand of Aragon, alluding to the fact that Boabdil was not TTL's last effective ruler of Granada.The presence of a United States may be disappointing to readers because of its striking similarity to OTL, but its something I imagined when I began the TL. I can assure you, and whoever else, however - there will be plenty of exoticity to go around.
Jonathan Edelstein said:
JE, can I call you JE? I simply cannot thank you enough for your following of my TL. It was a huge honour to see both you and Nassir commenting so encouragingly on it, and so early on. I hope I can deliver. After all, it was Malê and Crescent which first prompted me to join the board and have inspired my stylistically. Original and well-researched timelines dealing with Islamic elements seem to be much more rare than "WI: Islam didn't exist?" or "WI: Christian Arabia" prompts.
I digress...
The nice thing about Moundbuilders is we don't know too much about them. For Atlantis, this means one has much literary license to create a Native American/Muslim society to our liking
While disease certainly will take a toll on the indigenous population; the introduction of the horse, solidification of tribal structures along Arabo-Berber lines; the spread of Islam well beyond the reach of the Moorish settlements will create not only multiple Native Islamic polities; but also, the lack of huge immigrant sources aside from the founding Moors, at least initially, will allow for even the Moorish settlements themselves to be highly influenced by Native culture.
The American Southwest will sooner or later become a major center of Moorish New World society, rest assured, that region's enduring Native heritage has been a big inspiration on my TL as well.
***
Bon lecture à tous!
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I would say quite a bit more. The natives here accepted Islam early and willingfully, leading to genuine respect for native culture. Also, I don't expect Maghreb can provide so many immigrants to swarm them. There'll be the whole plague thing, but here the muslim immigrants will actually provide help in dealing against it and they're generally of better hygieny then Europeans. There's also that they don't treat the natives nearly as bad as the Spanish do their Indios IOTL. The way Islam typically spreads around as we know it, will also help its spread immensely. Expect some eclectic mystics traveling up north the Mississipi and bringing whatever heterodoxy they espouse. Islam as whole, will spread very quickly compared to christianity's case of OTL and the impact will be much more immediate to native North Americans. Expect Muslim Lakota hordes to greet whatever white settlers coming from across Appalachia later, should there be any.
Also, how about alternative source of muslims besides Maghreb ? Frankly, the most obvious one would be slaves brought from the West African coasts. Surely, we can safely expect the Bayouk muslims to not escaping slave plantation economy. A lot of them were Pagans, sure, but many of the slaves will muslims as well, and this is going to be an issue there. Muslims are certainly not immune to racism, but how the whole race issue develops will be different in muslim environment, with dealing with fellow muslims among the slave population and the whole Islamic view regarding the slavery for the basis to ground arguments on.
That's not yet counting possible flux of free black muslims. Senegal seems the most likely candidate to provide them. With free black muslims and enslaved ones flocking together in one place, social hierarchy will take different route, not butt resting conveniently in skin tone alone.
Lastly, since this TL's PoD affects Morocco early on, basically weakening it, does that mean there will be no Moroccan invasion of Songhay ITTL ? That means a massive change in Sahel !
I couldn't help but think of your comment when I came across this
Perhaps an ATL Delacroix
Les demoiselles de Mahdïa
We have enumerated the white roses of our own country; we must now conclude with dark, deep damask ones of Bayouk – those dusky dahlias of Mahdia, and the Jewish "passion flowers," which abound there. Shame on ye both! Ye dusky "Scorpions" of the forests of the New World! ye 'impassioned daughters of Abraham! for having deserted your banners; the gorgeous caftans of the East, to mimic the ungainly apparel of England and France, save for the veil, which guards thee from the rougher sex!
But such is not the melancholy case throughout all of Bayouk, for I am told that further inland, the "march of intellect" displayeth not its bad taste, alas, only in the capital of the Moorish New World are their womenfolk gradually abandoning the apparel of the Moors, the most graceful since that worn by Eve, for the last "modes" from London and Paris."
-From the collection of letters sent by a British lieutenant to his mother while stationed in Kingston in the XIX century, later published under the title Excursion on the Shores of the Caribbean
Monsieur Asher! I was waiting for you and your Ottomanophilia to come across my humble TL
The presence of a United States may be disappointing to readers because of its striking similarity to OTL, but its something I imagined when I began the TL. I can assure you, and whoever else, however - there will be plenty of exoticity to go around.
JE, can I call you JE? I simply cannot thank you enough for your following of my TL. It was a huge honour to see both you and Nassir commenting so encouragingly on it, and so early on. I hope I can deliver. After all, it was Malê and Crescent which first prompted me to join the board and have inspired my stylistically. Original and well-researched timelines dealing with Islamic elements seem to be much more rare than "WI: Islam didn't exist?" or "WI: Christian Arabia" prompts.
I digress...
The nice thing about Moundbuilders is we don't know too much about them. For Atlantis, this means one has much literary license to create a Native American/Muslim society to our liking
While disease certainly will take a toll on the indigenous population; the introduction of the horse, solidification of tribal structures along Arabo-Berber lines; the spread of Islam well beyond the reach of the Moorish settlements will create not only multiple Native Islamic polities; but also, the lack of huge immigrant sources aside from the founding Moors, at least initially, will allow for even the Moorish settlements themselves to be highly influenced by Native culture.
The American Southwest will sooner or later become a major center of Moorish New World society, rest assured, that region's enduring Native heritage has been a big inspiration on my TL as well.
***
Bon lecture à tous!
I don't mind the presence of a US. For your TL. The reason here being that, even though I'm admittedly conservative when it comes to butterfly effect, I trust you can avoid the typical butterfly traps as well as by-default tropes aligning to certain biases. And a scene where cowboys and continental cavalry will go into showdown against muslim Lakotas is a legitimate goal to pursue
As well as making US accustomed to Islam since its formative period and making native society stronger in general.As for things related to your PoD, remember that, your general divergence point is huge. Spain, West and North Africa, and Reformation-era European politics are the areas where the impact will be as large as in the New World, followed by early colonialism and global trade. Hard to say where they will all lead to. I have brought the point about the possibility of no Ksar El Kebir and how it will save Songhay(for a while). I'd also look forward how Spanish and European politics be altered, as well as the development of Spanish empire in Americas, not only in terms of physical territory but also what kind of system will be implemented upon it, the issues and problems to face, etc.
I couldn't help but think of your comment when I came across this
Les demoiselles de Mahdïa
We have enumerated the white roses of our own country; we must now conclude with dark, deep damask ones of Bayouk – those dusky dahlias of Mahdia, and the Jewish "passion flowers," which abound there. Shame on ye both! Ye dusky "Scorpions" of the forests of the New World! ye 'impassioned daughters of Abraham! for having deserted your banners; the gorgeous caftans of the East, to mimic the ungainly apparel of England and France, save for the veil, which guards thee from the rougher sex!
But such is not the melancholy case throughout all of Bayouk, for I am told that further inland, the "march of intellect" displayeth not its bad taste, alas, only in the capital of the Moorish New World are their womenfolk gradually abandoning the apparel of the Moors, the most graceful since that worn by Eve, for the last "modes" from London and Paris."
-From the collection of letters sent by a British lieutenant to his mother while stationed in Kingston in the XIX century, later published under the title Excursion on the Shores of the Caribbean
I take this to be a case of fashion shift after European conquest of Bayouk ?
I couldn't help but think of your comment when I came across this
-From the collection of letters sent by a British lieutenant to his mother while stationed in Kingston in the XIX century, later published under the title Excursion on the Shores of the Caribbean
C'est vraiment gentil.
also
جيد جدا
Education in Atlantis
Tenoqtitlan, Emirate of Atlantis
Rajab/Ghust, 988 AH (August, 1580 AD)
“Performance such as this explains the Recapture and loss of Empire! May God not forgive your ancestors for the loss of Granada!” Abu Al-Hassan bin Matlazkazine, the old ustadh, one of the scholars and teachers of the Azteco-Granadan traditions in Atlantis, screamed at his pupils as they lifted stones to develop physical endurance whilst reciting various sayings of the Prophet and Aztec philosophers on obedience.
Humiliation was the key to toughening any weak links in Atlantean society, a vestige of their Aztec heritage. Despite his harsh rhetoric, he was certainly more lenient than the qalpulli under whom he had been educated.
The weakening of Atlantean society will lead to its downfall, the old ustadh thought to himself.
The current conflict between Shamalboqa bin Moqtezouma II, and his sister Taqishba and her Berber husband only highlighted this internal division that had led to the fall of Granada. After nearly a millennia since the Migration of the Seal of the Prophets and His followers from Mecca to Medina, the loss of Granada and the fall of Egypt to the Turks were surely a sign of the end of times to the old scholar.
All praise and glory to God, the Lord of this world and the hereafter, he thought to himself, for the opening of Atlantis to Islam before the end of times. The identification of Gog and Magog with the West in the Quran certainly helped popularize this sentiment throughout Atlantis during the period of the Civil War and the following decades of vassalage leading up to the Collapse of Atlantis.
Before the arrival of the Berbers, Aztec education had emphasized warrior qualities above all else. And while this was true in the early years of the Atlantean emirate as well, wars with New Spain, the spread of Catholicism among neighboring tribes, and the decreasing presence of Moroccan and Ottoman support had diminished the martial potential of the Atlanteans. The kalmekaks, or the Aztec “Houses of Lineage” Atlantean schools for the sons of the nobility and merchant class, continued the ancient teachings nevertheless, deemphasizing the martial nature of pre-Islamic Atlantean society, however, and emphasizing the religious sciences; philosophy; the huehuetatol, the “sayings of the old” that embodied the Aztec and Berber ideals; astronomy; and writing, amongst other subjects.
The Madrassa of Atlantis at Tenoqtitlan contained as much on the Islamic sciences and history of the Muslims as it did on the philosophy and religious traditions of the Aztecs, who's traditions were greatly admired by the Moorish descendants of the translators of Plato and other pre-Islamic philosophers in the Old World. The arrival of the Berbers and Islam, and their role in defeating the Spaniards resulted in what is referred to as al-inqaz, that is the salvation of Aztecs and Granadans by the opening of Atlantis to Islam. Its adoption amongst the nobility was rapid, aided by the conversion of the ruling family and intermarriage amongst the nobility with the original Berber immigrants. Despite its Islamization, Atlantean society generally fairly Aztec in structure. Mandatory education for nearly all children, regardless of gender or rank is a testament to this.
The fusion of Aztec and Berber approaches to education eventually resulted in an abnormally literate and educated society for its time at Tenoqtitlan. Atlantean ustadha’, the teachers of the scholarly and clerical class, set forth a spartan régime of education, inherited from the tlamatimine, the pre-Islamic teachers before them: daily cold baths in the mornings with the wudhu’ or ritual cleansing before Islamic prayer, hard work, physical punishment, bleeding with maguey thorns and endurance tests were commonplace. Its purpose was the continuation of a stoical people.
Whereas Muslims emphasized education for all at young ages, the Aztec tradition of mandatory education did not commence until the age of 14. Atlantean society would eventually develop a two-phase approach to education, divided into three types of schools according to the Aztec tradition: one for the sons of the nobility and upper classes, one for the sons of the commoners, and one for girls. Until the age of 12, common Atlantean boys and girls were instructed in the Quran, the Islamic sciences and important skills such as hunting, fighting for boys, and child rearing and crafts of the home for girls.
At adolescence, the Aztec phase would commence: sons of commoners would be expected to attend teboshkali school, originating from the Aztec “Houses of Youth” for some time between 10 and 20 years old for practical and martial studies, as well as history, religion, and trades such as agriculture or handicrafts.
For the sons of Atlantean elites, they would be instructed at kalmekaks, special madrassas for advanced learning in writing, poetry of the Aztecs and earlier Muslims, astronomy, statesmanship, calendrics and algebra, theology, medicine, codex painting, and other areas. The elimination of the priesthood with the coming of Islam to Atlantis resulted in a large, literate class of Islamic philosophers and theologians whose heritage would continue long after the Collapse of Atlantis. Whereas before the Islamization of Atlantis the military had been reserved for the elites, Muslim influence saw the weakening of elite control of the military as martial studies were taught in both teboshkali schools as widely as in the kalmekaks.
Atlantean girls, like their brothers, were educated young in Islamic sciences at young ages until adolescence, after which daughters of commoners would generally be educated for a year or two in religion, cooking, sewing, weaving, and childcare. With Islamization and the disappearance of the female roles in the pre-Islamic Aztec religion, the public role of women in Atlantean society was greatly reduced. Unlike their sisters and counterparts in the Islamic Old World, however, Atlantean women inherited from their Aztec foremothers opportunities in medicine and healing, securing an alternative route to social ascendancy for girls which the military often offered to boys. Observers from New Spain often wrote in their journals that these Moorish doctoresses were generally more advanced than any found in Europe.
Medicine, traditional healing and midwifery became highly structured and refined areas of study and work. There are treatises written by prominent Atlantean midwives of the time, often daughters of elites who received more extensive education in the religious sciences, discussing the Islamic concepts of ridha’a, milk-siblinghood and abortion amongst other jurisprudential subjects. The tradition of Islamic female scholars, lost in the Old World, was revived in Atlantis and would continue with the Atlantean expulsion to Bayouk as descendants of Atlanteans settled amongst the Adite tribes of the Plains further north of Moorish settlements at Bayouk, whose tribes also carried traditions of female healing and concepts of twinning, or parity between male and female.
Like male education, Atlantean midwifery was rather spartan in its approach. Atlantean midwifes would admonish young wives, whom they would treat throughout their reproductive lives after the fourth month of pregnancy in accordance with the Islamic hadith reported by Ibn Masoud:
Islamic traditions of warding off the “greater evil” of a woman’s death than the “lesser evil” of abortion was identical the pre-Islamic Aztec treatise Temiuxiuliztli, or “Obstetrics,” on the indigenous philosophies of embrotomy which prioritized the saving of the life of the mother over a potentially fatal fetus. Like their male counterparts, female healers in Atlantean society were often specialised. Some were trained in the inspection and classification of medicinal plants, while others in the preparation of medicines that were sold in talabaliyyat, sorts of proto-pharmacies, which sold remedies and goods including deodorants and dentifric paste. The latter would become the subject of a famous female scholar, Umm Talasel Aixa bint Mohammed, who provided that in the absence of arak of the salvadora persica tree for miswak, indigenous dentrifices would suffice. It would go on to be accepted by the Ulema of Atlantis, and these remedies would follow the Atlanteans to Bayouk upon their expulsion in the XVII century. Other healers specialised in surgery, digestive diseases, and issues of the teeth, nose and skin, amongst others.
While the expansion of New Spain may have lead to the strengthening of the fatalist philosophies of history of the Atlanteans, it also lead to a highly urbanized and literate society, as the emirate was limited to Tenoqtitlan and surrounding estates and lands between it and Al-Qulhawa on the coast. This heritage of literacy and urbanization of the Atlantens is greatly credited with the population boom and expansion of settlements in Bayouk among both Moorish and Adite centers as the Atlantean Azteco-Berber legacy in literature, military and medicine was transported north.
---
Attached image: Atlantean codex symbolizing the three forms of Atlantean education. From left to right: the teboshkali for the sons of the masses, the kalmekaks for the sons of elites, and the schools for girls.
Tenoqtitlan, Emirate of Atlantis
Rajab/Ghust, 988 AH (August, 1580 AD)
“Performance such as this explains the Recapture and loss of Empire! May God not forgive your ancestors for the loss of Granada!” Abu Al-Hassan bin Matlazkazine, the old ustadh, one of the scholars and teachers of the Azteco-Granadan traditions in Atlantis, screamed at his pupils as they lifted stones to develop physical endurance whilst reciting various sayings of the Prophet and Aztec philosophers on obedience.
Humiliation was the key to toughening any weak links in Atlantean society, a vestige of their Aztec heritage. Despite his harsh rhetoric, he was certainly more lenient than the qalpulli under whom he had been educated.
The weakening of Atlantean society will lead to its downfall, the old ustadh thought to himself.
The current conflict between Shamalboqa bin Moqtezouma II, and his sister Taqishba and her Berber husband only highlighted this internal division that had led to the fall of Granada. After nearly a millennia since the Migration of the Seal of the Prophets and His followers from Mecca to Medina, the loss of Granada and the fall of Egypt to the Turks were surely a sign of the end of times to the old scholar.
All praise and glory to God, the Lord of this world and the hereafter, he thought to himself, for the opening of Atlantis to Islam before the end of times. The identification of Gog and Magog with the West in the Quran certainly helped popularize this sentiment throughout Atlantis during the period of the Civil War and the following decades of vassalage leading up to the Collapse of Atlantis.
***
Before the arrival of the Berbers, Aztec education had emphasized warrior qualities above all else. And while this was true in the early years of the Atlantean emirate as well, wars with New Spain, the spread of Catholicism among neighboring tribes, and the decreasing presence of Moroccan and Ottoman support had diminished the martial potential of the Atlanteans. The kalmekaks, or the Aztec “Houses of Lineage” Atlantean schools for the sons of the nobility and merchant class, continued the ancient teachings nevertheless, deemphasizing the martial nature of pre-Islamic Atlantean society, however, and emphasizing the religious sciences; philosophy; the huehuetatol, the “sayings of the old” that embodied the Aztec and Berber ideals; astronomy; and writing, amongst other subjects.
The Madrassa of Atlantis at Tenoqtitlan contained as much on the Islamic sciences and history of the Muslims as it did on the philosophy and religious traditions of the Aztecs, who's traditions were greatly admired by the Moorish descendants of the translators of Plato and other pre-Islamic philosophers in the Old World. The arrival of the Berbers and Islam, and their role in defeating the Spaniards resulted in what is referred to as al-inqaz, that is the salvation of Aztecs and Granadans by the opening of Atlantis to Islam. Its adoption amongst the nobility was rapid, aided by the conversion of the ruling family and intermarriage amongst the nobility with the original Berber immigrants. Despite its Islamization, Atlantean society generally fairly Aztec in structure. Mandatory education for nearly all children, regardless of gender or rank is a testament to this.
The fusion of Aztec and Berber approaches to education eventually resulted in an abnormally literate and educated society for its time at Tenoqtitlan. Atlantean ustadha’, the teachers of the scholarly and clerical class, set forth a spartan régime of education, inherited from the tlamatimine, the pre-Islamic teachers before them: daily cold baths in the mornings with the wudhu’ or ritual cleansing before Islamic prayer, hard work, physical punishment, bleeding with maguey thorns and endurance tests were commonplace. Its purpose was the continuation of a stoical people.
Whereas Muslims emphasized education for all at young ages, the Aztec tradition of mandatory education did not commence until the age of 14. Atlantean society would eventually develop a two-phase approach to education, divided into three types of schools according to the Aztec tradition: one for the sons of the nobility and upper classes, one for the sons of the commoners, and one for girls. Until the age of 12, common Atlantean boys and girls were instructed in the Quran, the Islamic sciences and important skills such as hunting, fighting for boys, and child rearing and crafts of the home for girls.
At adolescence, the Aztec phase would commence: sons of commoners would be expected to attend teboshkali school, originating from the Aztec “Houses of Youth” for some time between 10 and 20 years old for practical and martial studies, as well as history, religion, and trades such as agriculture or handicrafts.
For the sons of Atlantean elites, they would be instructed at kalmekaks, special madrassas for advanced learning in writing, poetry of the Aztecs and earlier Muslims, astronomy, statesmanship, calendrics and algebra, theology, medicine, codex painting, and other areas. The elimination of the priesthood with the coming of Islam to Atlantis resulted in a large, literate class of Islamic philosophers and theologians whose heritage would continue long after the Collapse of Atlantis. Whereas before the Islamization of Atlantis the military had been reserved for the elites, Muslim influence saw the weakening of elite control of the military as martial studies were taught in both teboshkali schools as widely as in the kalmekaks.
Atlantean girls, like their brothers, were educated young in Islamic sciences at young ages until adolescence, after which daughters of commoners would generally be educated for a year or two in religion, cooking, sewing, weaving, and childcare. With Islamization and the disappearance of the female roles in the pre-Islamic Aztec religion, the public role of women in Atlantean society was greatly reduced. Unlike their sisters and counterparts in the Islamic Old World, however, Atlantean women inherited from their Aztec foremothers opportunities in medicine and healing, securing an alternative route to social ascendancy for girls which the military often offered to boys. Observers from New Spain often wrote in their journals that these Moorish doctoresses were generally more advanced than any found in Europe.
Medicine, traditional healing and midwifery became highly structured and refined areas of study and work. There are treatises written by prominent Atlantean midwives of the time, often daughters of elites who received more extensive education in the religious sciences, discussing the Islamic concepts of ridha’a, milk-siblinghood and abortion amongst other jurisprudential subjects. The tradition of Islamic female scholars, lost in the Old World, was revived in Atlantis and would continue with the Atlantean expulsion to Bayouk as descendants of Atlanteans settled amongst the Adite tribes of the Plains further north of Moorish settlements at Bayouk, whose tribes also carried traditions of female healing and concepts of twinning, or parity between male and female.
Like male education, Atlantean midwifery was rather spartan in its approach. Atlantean midwifes would admonish young wives, whom they would treat throughout their reproductive lives after the fourth month of pregnancy in accordance with the Islamic hadith reported by Ibn Masoud:
"Indeed the creation of each one of you is brought together in his mother’s belly for forty days in the form of a seed, then he is a clot of blood for a similar period, then a morsel of flesh for a similar period. An angel is then sent to him who blows the breath of life into him..."
Islamic traditions of warding off the “greater evil” of a woman’s death than the “lesser evil” of abortion was identical the pre-Islamic Aztec treatise Temiuxiuliztli, or “Obstetrics,” on the indigenous philosophies of embrotomy which prioritized the saving of the life of the mother over a potentially fatal fetus. Like their male counterparts, female healers in Atlantean society were often specialised. Some were trained in the inspection and classification of medicinal plants, while others in the preparation of medicines that were sold in talabaliyyat, sorts of proto-pharmacies, which sold remedies and goods including deodorants and dentifric paste. The latter would become the subject of a famous female scholar, Umm Talasel Aixa bint Mohammed, who provided that in the absence of arak of the salvadora persica tree for miswak, indigenous dentrifices would suffice. It would go on to be accepted by the Ulema of Atlantis, and these remedies would follow the Atlanteans to Bayouk upon their expulsion in the XVII century. Other healers specialised in surgery, digestive diseases, and issues of the teeth, nose and skin, amongst others.
While the expansion of New Spain may have lead to the strengthening of the fatalist philosophies of history of the Atlanteans, it also lead to a highly urbanized and literate society, as the emirate was limited to Tenoqtitlan and surrounding estates and lands between it and Al-Qulhawa on the coast. This heritage of literacy and urbanization of the Atlantens is greatly credited with the population boom and expansion of settlements in Bayouk among both Moorish and Adite centers as the Atlantean Azteco-Berber legacy in literature, military and medicine was transported north.
---
Attached image: Atlantean codex symbolizing the three forms of Atlantean education. From left to right: the teboshkali for the sons of the masses, the kalmekaks for the sons of elites, and the schools for girls.
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Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Hm as a Mesoamerican enthusiast, I am enjoying reading about the syncretism between the Aztec and Islamic cultures. How are relations between the Islamized Aztecs and their neighbors? What I found fascinating are the similarities between the Mexica and the Hebrews, at least how their depicted in the Old Testament, in that the former certainly thought themselves as a chosen race of people with Huitzilopochtli as their patron god? Would this change as the people convert to Islam or would this be modified a bit? Could the concept of a chosen race even exist in Islam which is quite a egalitarian religion in that it does not promote supremacy of race or ethnicity. As converts are rather more devoted to their adopted religion than one born to it, would the Aztecs, instead of waging flower wars, launch jihads, to spread the Islamic faith as well as expand their dominance over their neighbors?
Very fascinating update on Atlatean education system and medicine ! Just how did you make the picture ???
Just a lot of copy-and-pasting of various portions of the picture on top of other parts. The Arabic script, however, I took from an Andalusian manuscript. I have no idea how to colour and make maps, etc. on my macbook, despite having it for three years (MS Paint, however...) but I can manage that little lasso-cut and past tool quite well
The zoom out and play with the shading till the copy/paste lines are blurred Here's the original, its supposed to be Isabel Moctezuma
Just a lot of copy-and-pasting of various portions of the picture on top of other parts. The Arabic script, however, I took from an Andalusian manuscript. I have no idea how to colour and make maps, etc. on my macbook, despite having it for three years (MS Paint, however...) but I can manage that little lasso-cut and past tool quite well
Very well done if only using MS Paint (actually, one can do an amazing range of things with Paint). You would be exceedingly dangerous if you mastered Photoshop or GIMP .
Kosta
Banned
Great story you have here, Essam-efendi! I love the concept, but I think that I'm just absolutely in love with its execution. You're a good writer, and I find that you really make the story come to life. You have me hooked, and I'm very thrilled to see this uchronie blossom and continue into the present-day. I have a few questions so far. Did General René Jean Al Nabrawi convert to Islam and will more Huguenots make their way to Bayrouk? When other countries start to arrive, well if other nations start to arrive, will these Huguenots loyal to the Bayrouk State be utilised as middlemen and drogomans? I wonder if their religion will hurt them or their culture will help them should the French show up in the region—Lord, have mercy.
Also, I was thinking, what with the Arabs, Muladi, and Berbers descending upon a state that had a very rigid hierarchy and defined priesthood, if that might sort of alter the powers and duties of the imams of the region? I feel like had these settlers and refugees been Shi'a, then you might see former-priests joining the ulama and they could have enjoyed their former positions. But an imamate is nothing like a priesthood, and I can imagine that to be a bit of a culture shock for the new Muslims. You've already covered this a bit, but do you think that imams might fill much of the same role that priests did in the Aztec Empire?
I also should say that I'm as excited as I am filled with dread to see how the Spanish are going to rule their newly conquered territory. Will Islam survive in Mesoamerica? And did the Atlanteans ever get a chance to interact with the Maya before the Spanish came and mucked everything up?
Also, I was thinking, what with the Arabs, Muladi, and Berbers descending upon a state that had a very rigid hierarchy and defined priesthood, if that might sort of alter the powers and duties of the imams of the region? I feel like had these settlers and refugees been Shi'a, then you might see former-priests joining the ulama and they could have enjoyed their former positions. But an imamate is nothing like a priesthood, and I can imagine that to be a bit of a culture shock for the new Muslims. You've already covered this a bit, but do you think that imams might fill much of the same role that priests did in the Aztec Empire?
I also should say that I'm as excited as I am filled with dread to see how the Spanish are going to rule their newly conquered territory. Will Islam survive in Mesoamerica? And did the Atlanteans ever get a chance to interact with the Maya before the Spanish came and mucked everything up?
Thank you all so much, your compliments and interests really make it worth it. I find my mind drifting off about this alternative Atlantean world, but the research+daydreaming+writing takes a serious bite out of my work time, which, as it focuses on researching+writing (cool) about Islamist militant groups (AKA the j-word, not so cool) is something much nicer to imagine, as one might imagine.
I'll have to sit down this week and respond to everyone's questions and thoughts but off the top of my head, Kosta Bey, I don't want to give away René's story, I have big things planned for him! But he does go on to be called Abu Marwan I'll say this much, his lifestory and trajectory will definitely not be the standard Huguenot-in-the-Moorish-New-World trajectory. He's a one of a kind!
Par rapport the Huguenots, so far I've mentioned two groups: Those who left Spain and Navarre with the expulsion of the Moriscos in the first quarter of the XVIIth century; as well as some earlier and coinciding arrivals from OTL's Ft. Caroline. A lot of influential Huguenot colonial planners/strategists/etc. would eventually become very influential people in France and amongst several dynasties: I don't want to lock myself into huge butterfly effect changes I can't keep up with so soon! We've already had a delayed Reconquista, no Ksar El-Kebir and no Lepanto, and a stronger Ottoman naval presence that stretches to the Atlantic via Morocco (for now) PLUS Corsairs and Moroccans making their way to the New World. More answers to your questions to come later this week.
While I absolutely love the research and encyclopedic-style updates, I really wanted to make this timeline personal and revolve around characters and their lives as humans in this world, dropping hints and references about its changes along the way (à la Soufiane & Maimouna-format, less than the education one.) So...my for sure next update will be focussed on Maimouna, her childhood (we can now reference education) in Atlantis, and the Atlantean Civil War through that lens.
I know a lot of people use the alternate-history book style narrative. Especially JE's Malê and Nassir's Crescent, which I'm huge fans of. A concern of mine is that my writing tends to be a bit more extensive, "flowery" (aka run-on as is evident by what was supposed to be a "quick" post here) and less academic sounding I guess I'm trying to say. (Blame French.)
Bref,
Do any of you have format suggestions you particularly like or recommend or would like to see?
Enjoy some artwork in the meantime. Unedited! Moriscos in Castillan Granada before the ban on "Moorish" garb. A position I've gathered from my research and which I use as fact ITTL is the near certain doubt of sincerity of conversion of Moriscos even after multiple generations (just look at Alpujarras in OTL)...Also makes a nice, large population source to emigrate
Bsahtkoum et bonne semaine à tous
I'll have to sit down this week and respond to everyone's questions and thoughts but off the top of my head, Kosta Bey, I don't want to give away René's story, I have big things planned for him! But he does go on to be called Abu Marwan
I'll say this much, his lifestory and trajectory will definitely not be the standard Huguenot-in-the-Moorish-New-World trajectory. He's a one of a kind!Par rapport the Huguenots, so far I've mentioned two groups: Those who left Spain and Navarre with the expulsion of the Moriscos in the first quarter of the XVIIth century; as well as some earlier and coinciding arrivals from OTL's Ft. Caroline. A lot of influential Huguenot colonial planners/strategists/etc. would eventually become very influential people in France and amongst several dynasties: I don't want to lock myself into huge butterfly effect changes I can't keep up with so soon! We've already had a delayed Reconquista, no Ksar El-Kebir and no Lepanto, and a stronger Ottoman naval presence that stretches to the Atlantic via Morocco (for now) PLUS Corsairs and Moroccans making their way to the New World. More answers to your questions to come later this week.
While I absolutely love the research and encyclopedic-style updates, I really wanted to make this timeline personal and revolve around characters and their lives as humans in this world, dropping hints and references about its changes along the way (à la Soufiane & Maimouna-format, less than the education one.) So...my for sure next update will be focussed on Maimouna, her childhood (we can now reference education
) in Atlantis, and the Atlantean Civil War through that lens.I know a lot of people use the alternate-history book style narrative. Especially JE's Malê and Nassir's Crescent, which I'm huge fans of. A concern of mine is that my writing tends to be a bit more extensive, "flowery" (aka run-on as is evident by what was supposed to be a "quick" post here) and less academic sounding I guess I'm trying to say. (Blame French.)
Bref,
Do any of you have format suggestions you particularly like or recommend or would like to see?
Enjoy some artwork in the meantime. Unedited! Moriscos in Castillan Granada before the ban on "Moorish" garb. A position I've gathered from my research and which I use as fact ITTL is the near certain doubt of sincerity of conversion of Moriscos even after multiple generations (just look at Alpujarras in OTL)...Also makes a nice, large population source to emigrate
Bsahtkoum et bonne semaine à tous
I like the "flowery" prose used in your narrative. Lends itself to the material quite well. You probably should just continue in the same vein.
I love the synthesis of Islamic and Aztec education - I wonder how much of that will follow the Atlantean exiles to Bayrouk.
Port of Al-Qulhawa, Emirate of Atlantis
Rabia Althani/Yulyuz, 984 AH (July, 1576 AD)
Gulbahar starred in amazement as the bridegroom’s family presented her and her father with an array of exotic fruits: avocados, figs of Barbary, golden apples*, guavas, mangos and papayas. The voyage to Atlantis from Algiers aboard the corsair’s ship had been traumatic for the young girl at the tender age of 13: her mother had passed away before the ship landed at the Atlantean port of Al-Qulhawa.
After a year’s time in Atlantis, her father, Yusuf Shalabi – who had brought his family to the New World to flee the constraint of being a janissary to live with his now-gone wife and only daughter – could no longer provide for her. Too simply, there was no room for advancement for a deserted Turk in this “New World.” He would take up the life of a corsair, he had told her earlier that week. Moreover, he would entrust her to the family of Abu Abbas Abdelmalek bin Hammu Al Zayyani and his Aztec wife Ayouqtouatel, whom Gulbahar would grow to affectionately call Lalla Aicha.
Abdelmalek bin Hamu Al Zayyani was a sort of patriarch to the small community of families from Algiers, Constantine, Oran and Tlemcen in the Atlantean port of Al-Qulhawa. He was also a sort of patron for many a corsair. Of Tlemcenian origins, his relatives had ruled the Muslims between the domains of the Moroccan sultans in the west to those of the Hafsids in the east for nearly three centuries before the Ottomans displaced them. Despite this, and speaking enough Turkish, Abdelmalek had taken sympathy on this poor janissary who had gave his all to provide for his Arab wife and daughter, loosing his love and his fortune in the process. Abdelmalek arranged for Yusuf Shalabi to work on the ships of a corsair he knew well, and promised to treat Gulbahar as his own daughter, by marrying him to his son Abbas.
In the months Yusuf and his daughter stayed in the large coastal home of the Zayyanid estate in Al-Qulhawa, the two children seemed to get on well-enough, often hiding and seeking one another from each other behind the intricate wooden trellises of the various balconies and verandas facing the interior courtyard of this large Moorish home. It was not ideal, but it was the best the deserter could do to provide for his only daughter. In another world, or in Algiers, she would have never had the chance to marry into such a family. His prospects may not have advanced, but his daughter would. The succession crisis in Atlantis was a rare opening for the employment of a janissary in the militias of Taqishba bint Moqtezouma: the corsairs in the New World raided many a Spanish ship sailing between Santo Domingo and New Spain, often carrying munitions for the supporters of Moqtezouma’s son.
Following Moqtezouma II’s death, his brother and nephew threw their support behind their niece, Taqishba bint Moqtezouma. Married to a Nassrid dynast, the daughter of Atlantis’s first Muslim ruler and her allies contended that her brother, Shamalboqa, was a crypto-pagan. The Atlantean throne, therefore, was the right of her infant son. Many in the Berber elite, then concentrated in Port Al-Qulhawa, saw an opening in supporting the daughter of Moqtezouma and joined her cause, Abdelmalek Al-Zayyani amongst them. Her brother, Shamalboqa, was not without his allies. More often than not, however, these allies validated the accusations leveled against him by his sister and her Berber supporters: the majority of the party of Shamalboqa consisted of dissatisfied former priests only nominally converted to Islam and Tlaxcaltec merchants, who resented their princes’ alliance with the Aztecs and conversion to Islam after the first wars with the Spanish, who would later go on to support from their capital at Santo Domingo Shamalboqa.
Ayouqtouatel, or Aicha, Abdelmalek’s Aztec wife, cut open one of the mangos and sprinkled it with lime and chili and, speaking in Nahouatl, dictated to her most trusted slave and confidante (a captive from a raid years earlier which had seen Ayouqtouatel’s capture as well, despite the latter’s relative better fortunes due to her concubinage, conversion to Islam and bearing children to the powerful Zayyanid to whom she would later marry) to bring forth the sort of bread of fried maize enjoyed by all throughout Atlantis.
“Talaksqali” she said to Gulbahar, explaining the tortilla to the girl. She signaled for the slave to pour the girl and her father some bittersweet juice of the Barbarian figs.
“As you will learn to love Abbas by bearing his children and being wedded to him, you will learn to love this land” her future father-in-law boasted, leaning back and holding his stomach to contain his laughter at his own comment. The young girl's scowl at the bitterness of the juice of the yet-to-be-ripened fruit was indeed humorous: like many Moorish and Atlantean youth, she had simply not yet acquired the taste for bitter, sour drinks to accompany such sweets such as the mango. Yusuf felt uncomfortable in his chair as his pulse quickened. It was necessary, he reminded himself. He had no other choice.
Ayouqtouatel brushed her hand through the girls golden-red hair. Such a fair-skinned girl would have set her husband back a fortune in the future, had they attempted to purchase a girl captured by corsairs from New Spain. And this one is already a Muslim! Despite her own, more difficult arrival to the position of power in an Atlantean family, Ayouqtouatel could not help but feel sorry for the girl. While Atlantean women heaped praise upon her for giving seven healthy sons to Abdelmalek, she had always desired a daughter to pass down the knowledge, customs and jewelry instilled in her by her father and mother. She is young enough yet, Ayouqtouatel said to herself.
Learning forward to kiss Gulbahar's forehead, she whispered in Arabic “And as women learn to mold ingredients into foods of their liking, so will you learn to mold your husband.”
___________
*Tomatoes
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