Map Thread VII

[Alex Richards]

Ach I forget

Well what you think about Iran?
Germans should have leave to England?
Or create a puppet state?

Frankly, Iran just looks stupid. Afghanistan looks ludicrous. And I don't think the Germans ever wanted Malawi, Zambia or West Africa. And are those Boer States created by a victorious Germany, or part of the original PoD? Italy getting the British SoI in China is also silly, and they didn't want Algeria. Also, is that an Italian claim on Southern France?

 

[Slings_Arrows]

Ach I forget

Well what you think about Iran?
Germans should have leave to England?
Or create a puppet state?

If you have to have a german anything in Iran make it a puppet or just an ally, and why is Hungary marked as the AH Empire without Austria? Other than those its a pretty cool map.

 

[Beedok]

My entry for the map of fortnight challenge.

(click for larger image)

 

[False Dmitri]

Brainstorm map for a possible second wind for my Ethelred the Pious timeline.

 

[CobaltKnight]

A map I think I made way back in '07. It was for an RP, but it's since expanded into an entire story line I hope to write down some day.

Zar, endowed with mystical powers, created an empire the likes of which hadn't been seen in three centuries; and up until now it had all been done by the BarBar tribal expansion. In the story, it's up to the Myentar operative Zer0eye, of Cobalt Knight descent, to persuade Albadon-a nation so far only neutral because of its intense mountain terrain-to join the alliance and strike against The Empire. With only Palvoria or Albadon as options for a theater of war, his quest only escalates as his ancestry reveals something much more sinister behind Zar's power.

I'll go more in depth if anyone wants me to. Sorry if this is the wrong thread; it IS a map.

 

[iori]

Very cool! Does Bangladesh control a large part of OTL N. America, or is that Portuguese?

That's Portuguese North America*, Portugal is basically the only major European colonial power.

Bangladesh is primarily focused on its 'Italian Raj' and to a lesser extent its African colonies and has'nt colonized anywhere else in decades.

The colors are just a tad hard to see. What's that country in control of much of the Deccan? And is it the same one colonizing the southern
tips of Africa and S. America?

That would be the Chola Empire, which is itself another a situation like Srivijaya, which I forgot to add.

How did Zhonguo end up in control of Mecca, and how does that affect their relationship with Islam? Is Hinduism spreading into Europe via Hindustan's
control of Greece, or is Greek philosophy making a trip out to India?

Basically they wanted control of the area near the Suez canal to help their exploration/trade/colonization, and they were working with Egypt already
and could'nt really take a chunk out of them, so they went with the Arabian coast.
Though of course controlling several of Islam's most holy places directly was seen as not the best idea, so they created a protectorate state in the
area...which by the modern era will, as a result of linguistic drift and corruption, be called the Republic of Maddona.

Greece has and continue to form a sort of hybrid culture, mixing the Greco-European tradition with Hindi concepts.
In terms of religion, while their are some Hindu converts, Buddhism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism have actually been the most successful do to their
adoption of proselytyzation in South-East Europe.
The relationship is'nt completely one-sided though, classical greek architecture and a easternized version of gothic architecture have become popular
in Hindia, and Alexander the Great is actually starting to be seen in a more positive light.


The below is a new version including the key corrections, the inclusion of one more nation (I did'nt include it before to have even numbers) and some
minor touchups I missed originally.

 

[B_Munro]

Very cool, and quite plausible. What were the boundries of A-H WW1-WW2, by the way?

I was thinking basically a fairly federal Hungary+Slovakia+Czechs+Croatia you see on the map, plus Austria proper shorn of its Slovenian and Italian bits. No Wilson gabbing on about self-determination, plus a shorter war means AH hadn't collapsed entirely when the armistice came.

Bruce

 

[Beedok]

Seems I chose the wrong time to post my map.

 

[B_Munro]

EDIT: Map is on next page.


Alright, I've spent the last 4-5 days working on this intermittently for probably a combined 6 hours.

1. The Suez Canal was built in the mid-1500's in a Hindustan-lead multinational efort to better facilitate trade between Asia and Europe.
2. The Nicragua Canal was finished in 1720 following a Japanese-Portuguese-Andalusian agreement.
3. The first wave of Asian Colonialism (think the original colonization of the America's) was focused on the Pacific.
4. With the Eastern European states blocked geographically from expanding East, and the Asian countries seeing no reason to expand North, Siberia has been left uncolonized
and is home to the native peoples and the Mongols who follow 'Traditonalist Tengriism'.
5. Srivijaya's history is'nt continuous, rather it spent awhile as part of another Empire before that regime was toppled and the the old Empire rose anew as a result of proto-nationalism.
6. The Horn of Africa is very Hindianized, so much so that native Africans only make up 45% of the population in the colonies, though the Hindi protectorates remain native
do to laws preventing large scale immigration to them.

Interesting map, Iori! But there are a few things I find a bit off:

1. "Multinational effort" in the 16th century? That sort of thing is hard to pull off in the 21st. And why would Asian nations spend good money to help the Egyptian build a canal to get to backwards, Mongol-ravaged, doesn't-export-shit Europe?

2. Nicaragua canal built in 1710s? The Red Sea-Nile Canal is historically plausible, but I don't see that a Nicaragua canal suitable for ocean-going ships would be much easier than the Panama canal - and that was a seriously tough job even for an industrialized nation such as the turn of the 20th century USA.

3. Sure, the Mongols ravaged Europe pretty bad, but the Mongol Empire must have collapsed some 400 years ago at the time of the map - I would expect some more state consolidation by that time (I'll note that the 1770s Middle East OTL did not consist of a bunch of tiny wee states. Sure, feudalism, but kings were _always_ trying to bulk out their domains. At the very least, England would probably be asserting its claims on former France once the Mongols left...)

4. The canal being used as a venue for European conquests while the Egyptians are left alone - it seems a bit unlikely, and in any event, the Egyptians aren't going to be letting people through so they can conquer Muslim territories right next door - heck, if they're going to fuck with the Holy Places of Islam, the Chinese or Indians better go ahead and conquer Egypt before the locals choke the canal with Asian pagan corpses, that's all I'm going to say.

Bruce

 

[B_Munro]

Seems I chose the wrong time to post my map.

It's very cool nonetheless. I presume the Celts, like the Slavs, moved into the population vacuum across the channel? I would quibble with "Muslim" as an ethnic group, but that can be blamed on the folly of the extra-dimensional map maker.

Bruce

 

[Iserlohn]

The work of ten minutes, tops. A simple map showing some alternate Canadian provinces (as well as territories) and their names.

 

[iori]

1. "Multinational effort" in the 16th century? That sort of thing is hard to pull off in the 21st. And why would Asian nations spend good money to help the Egyptian build a canal to get to backwards, Mongol-ravaged, doesn't-export-shit Europe?

Multinational in the sense that their was a discussion like 'Hey, we can't really do this ourselves, but if you guys help you'll get a bunch of good shit in return.', though of course the world, or atleast the Asian part, is more advanced technologically and sociopolitically.

They built the canal for themselves, Egypt's only independent to ensure no one nation could try and take over and monopolize.

Europe was'nt ravaged to the point of being unproductive, in actuality it was'nt really the Mongols totally levelled things as much as they did lesser damage to a larger area, as such Europe does actually export some stuff the Asians are interested in (Europe adopted new world crops pretty fast) and they eventually got tired of depending on the Silk Road.

2. Nicaragua canal built in 1710s? The Red Sea-Nile Canal is historically plausible, but I don't see that a Nicaragua canal suitable for ocean-going ships would be much easier than the Panama canal - and that was a seriously tough job even for an industrialized nation such as the turn of the 20th century USA.

By the time Asia was technologically equivalent to roughly 1850-1870 IOTL, and in the end the Nicaragua canal is actually easier than Panama, since you only have to build two smaller canals linking the already existing lake, and it did take 20 years to build.

3. Sure, the Mongols ravaged Europe pretty bad, but the Mongol Empire must have collapsed some 400 years ago at the time of the map - I would expect some more state consolidation by that time (I'll note that the 1770s Middle East OTL did not consist of a bunch of tiny wee states. Sure, feudalism, but kings were _always_ trying to bulk out their domains. At the very least, England would probably be asserting its claims on former France once the Mongols left...)

The HRE and it's hundreds of states does'nt exist anymore, what else do you want?

England does'nt actually claim anything outside of Britain anymore, they just retained close relations with Guine (or whatever it's called), and it's more a situation like Hannover IOTL.

As to the rest of Europe, well this only shows 1770, and with no larger European Empires Europe has for the time hit a point of relative stability..not that it will remain that way, after all those Sudovians do dream big and France has gotten the other French states to integrate some more by playing nice.


[/quote]
4. The canal being used as a venue for European conquests while the Egyptians are left alone - it seems a bit unlikely, and in any event, the Egyptians aren't going to be letting people through so they can conquer Muslim territories right next door - heck, if they're going to fuck with the Holy Places of Islam, the Chinese or Indians better go ahead and conquer Egypt before the locals choke the canal with Asian pagan corpses, that's all I'm going to say.
[/quote]

As I said, Egypt exists only because Asia lets it exist, I considered showing it as a Condominium, but that would make it look like the Gay Caliphate.

Medina, Mecca and the other Holy sites are still under Muslim control, and the the area is actually a partially willing Protectorate, in general the Chinese just some of the coastal city-ports and leave the alone.

 

[B_Munro]

Multinational in the sense that their was a discussion like 'Hey, we can't really do this ourselves, but if you guys help you'll get a bunch of good shit in return.', though of course the world, or atleast the Asian part, is more advanced technologically and sociopolitically.


They built the canal for themselves, Egypt's only independent to ensure no one nation could try and take over and monopolize..

This implies a level of political development hellofa more advanced than the OTL 16th century (or 17th or 18th for that matter): for one thing, nobody has gone to war to sieze absolute control of the canal for themselves. Really, can you imagine Catherine the Great, Louis XVI, and Abdulhamid I and their predecessors cooperating to run a canal in Nicaragua for decades, let alone centuries?

Europe was'nt ravaged to the point of being unproductive, in actuality it was'nt really the Mongols totally levelled things as much as they did lesser damage to a larger area, as such Europe does actually export some stuff the Asians are interested in (Europe adopted new world crops pretty fast) and they eventually got tired of depending on the Silk Road.

OTL the only important commodity Europeans exported to Asia before the 19th century that Asians wanted was silver. And unless Europe develops pretty modern agriculture, there's not going to be that much of a surplus for export (and is transport of grain, potatoes, etc. profitable over oceanic distances before 19th century levels of tech arrive? Let's hear from the peanut gallery).

By the time Asia was technologically equivalent to roughly 1850-1870 IOTL, and in the end the Nicaragua canal is actually easier than Panama, since you only have to build two smaller canals linking the already existing lake, and it did take 20 years to build..

Hm. Not sure it's easier: its a fair stretch from the lake to the east coast, and there's some hilly country in between.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Nicaragua_Topography.png

Might have to build some locks. 1870 tech in 1720? Ok, it's one of those "sunspots, therefore the Confederacy industrializes" TLs. You need a "butterflies lead to Asian industrial revolution" warning on the post.

Sorry - I did come across as a bit of a troll there, didn't I?

No, I'm not one of those "industrial revolutions only happen in Tory Great Britain" people. But I don't feel modernization happens automatically either, and my first assumption isn't Asia industrializing faster than the West did OTL: an uninvaded Sung China, maybe, but then there should be a Chinawank rather than a "balanced" Asia

The HRE and it's hundreds of states does'nt exist anymore, what else do you want?

Well, you didn't give a closeup of Germany, so I am unsure if it is dozens or hundreds.

England does'nt actually claim anything outside of Britain anymore, they just retained close relations with Guine (or whatever it's called), and it's more a situation like Hannover IOTL.

A purely personal union then?

As to the rest of Europe, well this only shows 1770, and with no larger European Empires Europe has for the time hit a point of relative stability..not that it will remain that way, after all those Sudovians do dream big

Oh God, not the Prussians again...

and France has gotten the other French states to integrate some more by playing nice. .

"Not by speeches and votes of the majority, are the great questions of the time decided — that was the error of 1848 and 1849 — but by iron and blood" (Speaking of Prussians...)

As I said, Egypt exists only because Asia lets it exist, I considered showing it as a Condominium, but that would make it look like the Gay Caliphate.

That's why I like footnotes: I'd probably go with something on the lines of "Egypt - Asia's Bitch"


Bruce

 

[Beedok]

It's very cool nonetheless. I presume the Celts, like the Slavs, moved into the population vacuum across the channel? I would quibble with "Muslim" as an ethnic group, but that can be blamed on the folly of the extra-dimensional map maker.

Bruce

Yeah, it is a somewhat different cultural ideals thing.

 

[iori]

This implies a level of political development hellofa more advanced than the OTL 16th century (or 17th or 18th for that matter): for one thing, nobody has gone to war to sieze absolute control of the canal for themselves. Really, can you imagine Catherine the Great, Louis XVI, and Abdulhamid I and their predecessors cooperating to run a canal in Nicaragua for decades, let alone centuries?

Well the Japanese and Portuguese are actually pretty chummy (Portuguese America does'nt rival Japanese America in size for no reason), and the Andalusians don't wanna rock the boat when they know they're the ones that'd fall overboard.

The canal is actually in a neutral state that's sort of an amalgam of people, with populations from Asia, Europe and of course the natives.

At the time of the map their are plans to eventually build a second canal in Panama, but it's more a long term goal.

OTL the only important commodity Europeans exported to Asia before the 19th century that Asians wanted was silver.

And China really did like it's Silver IOTL.

And unless Europe develops pretty modern agriculture, there's not going to be that much of a surplus for export (and is transport of grain, potatoes, etc. profitable over oceanic distances before 19th century levels of tech arrive? Let's hear from the peanut gallery).

It's not that they're exporting alot, it's that Asia thought they had alot of it, and wanted a direct link for it, though they eventually realized that was'nt the case, but by that point decided it could still be good economically to maintain the link.

Ok, it's one of those "sunspots, therefore the Confederacy industrializes" TLs. You need a "butterflies lead to Asian industrial revolution" warning on the post.

Sorry - I did come across as a bit of a troll there, didn't I?

No, I'm not one of those "industrial revolutions only happen in Tory Great Britain" people. But I don't feel modernization happens automatically either, and my first assumption isn't Asia industrializing faster than the West did OTL: an uninvaded Sung China, maybe, but then there should be a Chinawank rather than a "balanced" Asia

Well it's not a 'ZOMG Asia gets a British style Industrial Revolution in 1500!!1!' type secenario, rather their was alot of technological and indutrial evolution for a few centuries which lead to Technological Revolutions, with the bigest ones being in Korea and Japan.

The Song of course did help with their surviving, but as a result of the Mongol invasions and the aftermath after that they eventually were replaced and China split into two states that both claimed to be the heir of the Song for awhile, though by the point of the map they've both developed to the point where they're very different from one another.

Well, you didn't give a closeup of Germany, so I am unsure if it is dozens or hundreds.

I use the GCS color for 'small states', so what you see on the map is what exists, the German Confederation is comprised of 10 states.

A purely personal union then?

More or less, though their are still cultural ties, sort of like OTL Britain and Canada in the modern day.

Oh God, not the Prussians again...

Nah, the Prusans (who are still mostly Pagan Baltic people) are the minor partner so toe speak.

Prusa-Sudovia does'nt really care about the territory to its West, it's focus is on the South and East.

That's why I like footnotes: I'd probably go with something on the lines of "Egypt - Asia's Bitch"

At the time I posted it I was sort of worn out in terms of writing, so yeah, though I did say for people to ask if they wanted to know something atleast.

 

[B_Munro]

Well it's not a 'ZOMG Asia gets a British style Industrial Revolution in 1500!!1!' type secenario, rather their was alot of technological and indutrial evolution for a few centuries which lead to Technological Revolutions, with the bigest ones being in Korea and Japan.

Incremental will, I suspect, only get you so far unless there's a scientific revolution involved as well, with regular methods for the transmission of technical knowledge, etc. I'm dubious it will get you as far as the latter half of the 19th century, when the "electicity plus chemicals" revolution took over from the "steel, steam and coal" one. There was quite a bit of scientific know-how involved.

And incremental methods aren't that fast - after all, un-Mongol-ravaged Europe OTL used "incremental" methods as well before the scientific and industrial revolutions, but by 1720 you have them achieve what OTL would take Europe with an industrial and scientific revolution another 130-150 years. And India OTL was unravaged by Mongols, but ended conquered by Europeans: admittedly it might have done better as a side effects of a more expansionist and confident eastern Islam and Buddhist/whatever far east, but that probably just leads to India becoming Muslim-dominated as OTL, unless the East Asians somehow can be played off against them.

(And incidentally, if the Islamic east is part of this modernizing Asia, why doesn't the know-how transmit west to Egypt? See ol' Ibn Battuta - the Islamic world was the first "global community.")

I use the GCS color for 'small states', so what you see on the map is what exists, the German Confederation is comprised of 10 states.

Screw the GCS system and the camel it rode in on. Life's too short to memorize all the systems that are floating around out there.

Bruce

 

[iori]

Incremental will, I suspect, only get you so far unless there's a scientific revolution involved as well, with regular methods for the transmission of technical knowledge, etc. I'm dubious it will get you as far as the latter half of the 19th century, when the "electicity plus chemicals" revolution took over from the "steel, steam and coal" one. There was quite a bit of scientific know-how involved.

And incremental methods aren't that fast - after all, un-Mongol-ravaged Europe OTL used "incremental" methods as well before the scientific and industrial revolutions, but by 1720 you have them achieve what OTL would take Europe with an industrial and scientific revolution another 130-150 years.

Their were, but it's more a case of incremental development mixed with several revolitions in specific fields eventally leading to a true, broad Scientific and Industrial revolution by the 1710-1720 period.

And India OTL was unravaged by Mongols, but ended conquered by Europeans: admittedly it might have done better as a side effects of a more expansionist and confident eastern Islam and Buddhist/whatever far east, but that probably just leads to India becoming Muslim-dominated as OTL, unless the East Asians somehow can be played off against them.

IOTL India was really a unique case, the British happened to arrive right after the Empire ruling the region collapsed and thus were able to fill a newly created power vaccuum to some extent and from their gained control via Divide and Conquer and really only managed to hold it for so long from puposefully deindustrializing the area and ensuring that they would have the technological edge.

(And incidentally, if the Islamic east is part of this modernizing Asia, why doesn't the know-how transmit west to Egypt? See ol' Ibn Battuta - the Islamic world was the first "global community.")

Islam ITTL is'nt as widespread as IOTL.

Basically Islam is confined primarily to Arabia, Persia, North Africa, and parts of Central Asia, Andalusia and Sumatra.

Screw the GCS system and the camel it rode in on. Life's too short to memorize all the systems that are floating around out there.

Bruce

Well it's more what all of us who've been doing historic maps have adopted for areas where their were a bunch of tiny states that could'nt be shown or areas where we know their were states, but no one knows what their borders were, it's one of the universal color system things that has developed.

 

[B_Munro]

Their were, but it's more a case of incremental development mixed with several revolitions in specific fields eventally leading to a true, broad Scientific and Industrial revolution by the 1710-1720 period...

Let's agree to disagree. I find the notion of an industrial/scientific revolution breaking out so early and all over an Asia divided into some quite distinct and mutually unfriendly cultural regions rather improbable, but its not like there is any Sealion-like concensus on the board about the likelihood of such things.

(I mean, I'd be ok with Song steam engines and Asian states kicking Europe's butt in the colonial field, but Asia as an equivalent of industrializing, colonizing, cooperating 19th century Europe a century and a half earlier is just...eh.)

Islam ITTL is'nt as widespread as IOTL.

Basically Islam is confined primarily to Arabia, Persia, North Africa, and parts of Central Asia, Andalusia and Sumatra..

Hm? What happended in Anatolia and the Fertile Crescent? Or Muslim India - Genghis was still getting the training wheels off his Horde when the Mamluks (Afghan, not Egyptian) were overruning north India.

Bruce

 

[iori]

Let's agree to disagree. I find the notion of an industrial/scientific revolution breaking out so early and all over an Asia divided into some quite distinct and mutually unfriendly cultural regions rather improbable, but its not like there is any Sealion-like concensus on the board about the likelihood of such things.

(I mean, I'd be ok with Song steam engines and Asian states kicking Europe's butt in the colonial field, but Asia as an equivalent of industrializing, colonizing, cooperating 19th century Europe a century and a half earlier is just...eh.)

I'd agree if it were all happening at once, but these are of course events hapening at different times.

Incidentally, while Asia is'nt about to unify or anything, for the most part they don't actually have problems with one another, especially since they're 'spheres of interest' tend to be different.

But yes, agree to disagree on the whole matter.

Hm? What happended in Anatolia and the Fertile Crescent? Or Muslim India - Genghis was still getting the training wheels off his Horde when the Mamluks (Afghan, not Egyptian) were overruning north India.

Bruce

I forgot about Anatolia, yeah Muslims are the majority (but not overwehlmingly, their are Christians, Tengrists and Jews) in the central and east parts of it, but the West is either Christianity of various sorts or followers of the Dharmic religions (colonial immigrants and converts), though their are still some smaller Muslim communities, just not majorities.

The Ferticle Crescent I tend to treat as an extension of Arabia if I'm not focused on it, so yeah it's Muslim to.

The Muslims in India are located primarily in Hindustan (they make up about 40% of the populace, however they were prevented from making major inroads elsewhere for a variety of reasons, and are primarily Ismaili and Sufi and tend to view the Western muslims the same way the early Europeans viewed the Church of the East and older churches that had long fallen out of contact with European Christendom.

 

[Agatho]

That's Portuguese North America*, Portugal is basically the only major European colonial power.

This is a beautiful map, but how could Portugal fill up that much land that quickly when there are no major gold deposits or other resources there that would have been discovered quickly enough to justify immigration? Japanese America is a stretch, but I could see it happening due to the gold and silver in California and Mexico. I guess my question is this: what are the Portuguese colonies in America like that they could effectively control THAT MUCH LAND in the early 1700's, when OTL it took forever to settle?

Greece has and continue to form a sort of hybrid culture, mixing the Greco-European tradition with Hindi concepts.
In terms of religion, while their are some Hindu converts, Buddhism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism have actually been the most successful do to their
adoption of proselytyzation in South-East Europe.
The relationship is'nt completely one-sided though, classical greek architecture and a easternized version of gothic architecture have become popular
in Hindia, and Alexander the Great is actually starting to be seen in a more positive light.

I could see Neo-Platonism making a slight revival, or at least having the kind of influence on India that Daoism and Buddhism have had on the West, but as far as proselytization goes I can't see any of those religions having any more success than the Ottomans did with Islam. By the point of the POD the culture of the Balkans was Byzantine and Orthodox enough that I don't think the people there would take too kindly to pagan missionaries.