Let's develop a language

[Zuvarq]

Let's develop a language. Unnamed for now. I would suggest something like 'Alternata' for the name, but then again we don't know yet what this language will be like, the name should be like the words in the language.

First, we need to decide what languages we base it on and/or borrow words from.

Second, whether each sound gets its own letter ('cat') , whether most sounds are done by combinations of letters ('que'), whether some letters have two separate sounds when they are pronounced, ('I'), or there is a mix of the three. Probably a mix, but which of the three would be more common.


Using these two initial things we will develop the alphabet, which should be basically the Latin alphabet with a few letters added or taken away, because Chinese, Russian, and Arabic are overrated.

Then we will make a vocabulary of the language.

 

[Osakadave]

Let's develop a language. Unnamed for now. May I suggest 'Alternata'?

I don't know how serious about this you are. Some people take their conlanging as seriously as people here take their althistories. If you're really interested, let me know and I can point you in the right direction. If you aren't too serious, I can still give you some pointers. And if you're just looking for a light game, ignore me as I cringe away.

 

[Zuvarq]

I don't know how serious about this you are. Some people take their conlanging as seriously as people here take their althistories. If you're really interested, let me know and I can point you in the right direction. If you aren't too serious, I can still give you some pointers. And if you're just looking for a light game, ignore me as I cringe away.

I'm (mostly) serious about this.

 

[Goldstein]

I'm very interested in the project.

As a suggestion, I think the best thing would be to let the vocabulary to develop organically. Maybe some contributors will come up with mutated forms of a language, of an entirely new word, but the important thing is the gramatical structure, the phonology and the writing system get well decided... and that's going to be tricky.

For not using the same spelling as English (which would be boooring for a conlang IMO), I would suggest to use one letter per phonem... and, for example, special vowels for the dypthongs (maybe with a particular stress). As for the phonems... I suggest, for the sake of simplicity and equity, to start with those of Classic Greek (a quick visit to wikipedia will brief people) and go adding others at will.

As for the gramatical thing... OK, i'll let others to decide. I hope this keeps running!

 

[Zuvarq]

I'm very interested in the project.

As a suggestion, I think the best thing would be to let the vocabulary to develop organically. Maybe some contributors will come up with mutated forms of a language, of an entirely new word, but the important thing is the gramatical structure, the phonology and the writing system get well decided... and that's going to be tricky.

For not using the same spelling as English (which would be boooring for a conlang IMO), I would suggest to use one letter per phonem... and, for example, special vowels for the dypthongs (maybe with a particular stress). As for the phonems... I suggest, for the sake of simplicity and equity, to start with those of Classic Greek (a quick visit to wikipedia will brief people) and go adding others at will.

As for the gramatical thing... OK, i'll let others to decide. I hope this keeps running!

I agree with the 'form organically' part. We can all suggest words, some from languages, some completely original, some mutated, etc.


However:


I don't think we should have separate 'rounded' and 'unrounded' vowels like Classical Greek.

I would suggest Spanish vowels/phonemes. They are the absolute simplest and easiest vowels, each one is a single phoneme (except for 'que' and 'qui' of course, where, 'qu' becomes the 'c'/'k' sound). However we should probably have new letters that can represent vowels that Spanish does not include. Like English's a in 'cat', oo in 'good', and 'i' in 'sit'.


Also... the 'r' sound in English could be a vowel. The 'hard r' in Spanish and many languages should be a consonant. (and the rolled rr as well)

 

[Osakadave]

I'm (mostly) serious about this.

Alrighty. Let me first point you to some sites that are more geared to conlanging, then I'll run through your OP with some advice and suggestions.

The wiki page is a good intro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructed_language

Once you've had a look at that, have a look at the Language Construction Kit: http://www.zompist.com/kit.html

The guy who did that has a lot more: http://www.zompist.com/

As well as running a conlang forum: http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/ (There are others out there, but this seems to be one of the best. It takes a little time and effort to register, but if you are serious, it's a much better place to get on this than here.)

A little more advanced page: http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/nyh/how__all.html

If you're still good to try conlanging after all that, cool.

Just a note here - I'm still a bit of a beginner at this, but I have a bit of experience and knowledge. I've got a Franco-Hispano-German Creole brewing up in association with an alt-history of Louisiana.

Also, I'm assuming from your comments that you aren't very familiar with this, so forgive me if I cover anything you already know.

Note that most of these are dealt with in greater detail at the sites above.

I would suggest something like 'Alternata' for the name, but then again we don't know yet what this language will be like, the name should be like the words in the language.

Don't worry about that for now.

First, we need to decide what languages we base it on and/or borrow words from.

If you want to go that route, it will make it easier in some respects. This is known as an a posteriori language, BTW, as contrasted with an a priori language, which is one not based on any existing language. Just make sure it's not just switching words around.

Second, whether each sound gets its own letter ('cat') , whether most sounds are done by combinations of letters ('que'), whether some letters have two separate sounds when they are pronounced, ('I'), or there is a mix of the three. Probably a mix, but which of the three would be more common.

The term for this is phonology, and it can get pretty complicated. A good start would be to familiarize yourself with the IPA and X-SAMPA, which will give you the basics for this.

Using these two initial things we will develop the alphabet, which should be basically the Latin alphabet with a few letters added or taken away, because Chinese, Russian, and Arabic are overrated.

Orthography is the proper term.

For now, from what you've said so far, I'd suggest a Western European based language.

Then we will make a vocabulary of the language.

Vocab is just the start.

Now with all that said, you may want to consider how you go about this. The LCK I linked above has it in phonology, vocab grammar order, but some smart experienced people have suggested grammar, vocab, phonology as a better approach.

Any questions?

 

[Osakadave]

I would suggest Spanish vowels/phonemes. They are the absolute simplest and easiest vowels, each one is a single phoneme (except for 'que' and 'qui' of course, where, 'qu' becomes the 'c'/'k' sound). However we should probably have new letters that can represent vowels that Spanish does not include. Like English's a in 'cat', oo in 'good', and 'i' in 'sit'.


Also... the 'r' sound in English could be a vowel. The 'hard r' in Spanish and many languages should be a consonant. (and the rolled rr as well)

Gotta agree with you that a Spanish based phonology would probably be easier for most posters. BTW, here's a useful chart of the more common phonemes: http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/auxlang-design.html#phonlist

 

[Zuvarq]

It will be a mix of priori and posteriori. Posteriori for most sounds and a few words, possibly grammar. Priori for most words, possibly grammar.

Hmm, that Language Construction Kit will be useful.

I think phonology, vocabulary, and grammar order would be the best way to order it.



Anyway, another suggestion. Regarding vowels.

I think there should be several sets of vowels.

The 'basic vowels' come from Spanish.

The 'alternate vowels' come from English. They are displayed with a diacritic over the ordinary symbol.

There will also be made up vowels. I've only come up with two so far. They might be in a real language(s), not sure.

Basic vowels: a e i o u

Alternate vowels: a u r

Made up vowels: Я

The 'a' alternate vowel is as in 'cat', The 'u' alternate vowel is as in 'good'. The 'r' alternate vowel is as in 'bird'.

'Я' is the 'r' sound of English and this language's alternate vowels, but with rounded lips.


Also a possible consonant... 'ḩ'... the sound you make when you imitate a cat hissing, but it's very brief. Sort of closing the back of the tong while making a 'h' sound from English.

 

[Goldstein]

It will be a mix of priori and posteriori. Posteriori for most sounds and a few words, possibly grammar. Priori for most words, possibly grammar.

Hmm, that Language Construction Kit will be useful.

I think phonology, vocabulary, and grammar order would be the best way to order it.



Anyway, another suggestion. Regarding vowels.

I think there should be several sets of vowels.

The 'basic vowels' come from Spanish.

The 'alternate vowels' come from English. They are displayed with a diacritic over the ordinary symbol.

There will also be made up vowels. I've only come up with two so far. They might be in a real language(s), not sure.

Basic vowels: a e i o u

Alternate vowels: a u r

Made up vowels: Я

The 'a' alternate vowel is as in 'cat', The 'u' alternate vowel is as in 'good'. The 'r' alternate vowel is as in 'bird'.

'Я' is the 'r' sound of English and this language's alternate vowels, but with rounded lips.


Also a possible consonant... 'ḩ'... the sound you make when you imitate a cat hissing, but it's very brief. Sort of closing the throat while making a 'h' sound from English.

nice. Another suggestion: a diacritic over the i can mean the sound of the german ü, between the i and the u in Spanish. I like that sound, you know. Я sounds very hard, BTW.

Another suggestion: in this language, the sound of c as in "cat" is always covered by the letter K, while the letter C always covers the sound θ, as in three. For example, in the language's spelling, Kathleen would be written as káclin

 

[Zuvarq]

nice. Another suggestion: a diacritic over the i can mean the sound of the german ü, between the i and the u in Spanish. I like that sound, you know. Я sounds very hard, BTW.

Another suggestion: in this language, the sound of c as in "cat" is always covered by the letter K, while the letter C always covers the sound θ, as in three. For example, in the language's spelling, Kathleen would be written as káclin

Hmm, the difference between 'ü' and 'u' is very slight. I'm not even sure if I can pronounce 'ü' right. It always ends up turning into 'oo' as in 'good'.

Я is a continuous 'rrrrrr' (not rolled; think 'grrrr') sound, then round your lips while making the sound. There, you've made the 'Я'.



Alright, but I was thinking of including the thorn (Þ, þ) letter.

 

[Korporal Nooij]

I am very interested in this project! I have subscribed the thread, and I will definitely help!

Hmm, the difference between 'ü' and 'u' is very slight. I'm not even sure if I can pronounce 'ü' right. It always ends up turning into 'oo' as in 'good'.

In German, the 'ü' is pronounced almost like the 'ew' in 'few', while the German 'u' is pronounced like 'oo' in 'cool'.

Я is a continuous 'rrrrrr' (not rolled; think 'grrrr') sound, then round your lips while making the sound. There, you've made the 'Я'.

Yes, I really like the idea of having two 'r's in this language! One of the two should be a typical English 'r', and one should be a typical German/Spanish 'rr'.

Alright, but I was thinking of including the thorn (Þ, þ) letter.

Interesting! Maybe instead of the usual 'th'?

Perhaps we could add the 'eth' (ð/Ð) as well?

Oh and how about the Dutch/Arabic/Hebrew 'g' (AKA the Spanish 'j')? Or the German 'ch'? I guess it is a bit hard for Anglophones though, so i guess it is a very bad idea. Not sure what Anglophones themselves think about it though?

 

[Zuvarq]

In German, the 'ü' is pronounced almost like the 'ew' in 'few', while the German 'u' is pronounced like 'oo' in 'cool'.

Hmm, that didn't really help. Is 'ü' a dipthong or a single phone? Also, I pronounce 'u' in few/fjU and cool/cUl the same.

Yes, I really like the idea of having two 'r's in this language! One of the two should be a typical English 'r', and one should be a typical German/Spanish 'rr'.

There are four r's (so far; although I don't think we need any more, heh). English 'r' 'bird', Spanish impacted/hard 'r' 'escribir', Spanish rolled 'rr' 'perro', and English r with rounded lips 'Я'.

The first r and the last r are vowels. Brd. BЯd. 'r' can function really well as a vowel, and 'Я' sounds like a mix of 'r' and 'o'.

Interesting! Maybe instead of the usual 'th'?

Perhaps we could add the 'eth' (ð/Ð) as well?

I'm not sure what 'eth'/'ð/Ð' sounds like. However I suggest two 'th' sounds, the one of 'the', and the one of 'mouth'. I have a feeling 'eth' is the one in 'the'?

Oh and how about the Dutch/Arabic/Hebrew 'g' (AKA the Spanish 'j')? Or the German 'ch'? I guess it is a bit hard for Anglophones though, so i guess it is a very bad idea. Not sure what Anglophones themselves think about it though?

I suggest 'g' for stuff like 'guard/llegar' and j for stuff like 'Judge'.

German 'ch' is basically a bit different than 'k' right?

 

[Korporal Nooij]

Hmm, that didn't really help. Is 'ü' a dipthong or a single phone? Also, I pronounce 'u' in few/fjU and cool/cUl the same.

Ah, I am sorry! Here you go: In this video, you'll hear, right at the end, the girl say 'Tschüss'. It's like a very sharp 'ue' sound.

I am not too sure how to explain the 'u' sound, as the explanation really depends on your accent. Does your 'oo' in 'too' sound like the 'o' in 'two'? Or with 'u' in 'but'? If neither of these is the case, it sounds like the 'oo' in 'too'.

I'm not sure what 'eth'/'ð/Ð' sounds like. However I suggest two 'th' sounds, the one of 'the', and the one of 'mouth'. I have a feeling 'eth' is the one in 'the'?

Correct! The 'eth/ð/Ð' sounds like the 'th' in 'the', while the 'þ/Þ' sounds like the one in 'mouth'.

I suggest 'g' for stuff like 'guard/llegar' and j for stuff like 'Judge'.

German 'ch' is basically a bit different than 'k' right?

Try this video (it's the same one). Right when the video starts she says 'Hallo nochmal'.


Oh, and is it perhaps a good idea to use the 'ö' as well? In alot of languages it sounds like the 'u' in 'but'. It'll be a perfect way to separate the 'u' sounds from each other.

 

[OAM47]

I'll help out, though I'd be more help at a later stage, such as stylistic choices, rather then alphabet construction.

Also, though I know you've agreed on Latin, can we atleast use the Cyrilic D, I really like that letter

 

[Valdemar II]

Hmm, the difference between 'ü' and 'u' is very slight. I'm not even sure if I can pronounce 'ü' right. It always ends up turning into 'oo' as in 'good'.

"Ü" are like all letters with a "¨" above it pronoued with an -e, so it's pronounced "ue". That's more or less the difference between guest and gust. Of course in non-English languages the pronouncement differ, I as a example would pronounce "Ü" in German as I would pronounce "Y" in Danisn.

 

[Korporal Nooij]

I'll help out, though I'd be more help at a later stage, such as stylistic choices, rather then alphabet construction.

Also, though I know you've agreed on Latin, can we atleast use the Cyrilic D, I really like that letter

The 'д/Д'? I definitely agree!

 

[Alex Richards]

May I suggest that the 'ay' sound take the letter 'Æ'.

 

[Zuvarq]

Ah, I am sorry! Here you go: In this video, you'll hear, right at the end, the girl say 'Tschüss'. It's like a very sharp 'ue' sound.

I am not too sure how to explain the 'u' sound, as the explanation really depends on your accent. Does your 'oo' in 'too' sound like the 'o' in 'two'? Or with 'u' in 'but'? If neither of these is the case, it sounds like the 'oo' in 'too'.

So it's basically 'u' with a very tiny 'e' at the end. I don't see the point really.

'too' is the same as' two' for me. I know Spanish pronunciation and a tiny bit of actual Spanish, so you can go ahead and use that in your examples.

Oh, and is it perhaps a good idea to use the 'ö' as well? In alot of languages it sounds like the 'u' in 'but'. It'll be a perfect way to separate the 'u' sounds from each other.

The 'u' in 'but', in my opinion, should be represented by 'ú', as said before.

May I suggest that the 'ay' sound take the letter 'Æ'.

I think we should strive for one letter per sound. So that would be spelled ai or ay.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Interesting. I've thought a bit about making a conlang myself, but haven't gotten very far.

May I suggest using x for 'ch' and/or 'sh'? I've always liked how the Iberian languages and Nahuatl use it.

 

[Zuvarq]

Proposed vowels

Vowels: a e i/y o u/w á ú r я

a = gato
e = escribir
i/y = igualmente
o = poner
u/w = pusimos
á = cat
ú = but
r = bird
я = r with rounded lips





Should these be all the consonants:

b c d f g h ḩ j k l m n p r rr s t Þ v x z

b = bath
c = 'th' as in 'bath'
d = dog
f = fizzy
g = guatemala
h = hat
ḩ = loch/nochmal
j = judge
k = cake
l = lago
m = mom
n = no
p = pop
r = escribir
rr = perro
s = si
t = tip
Þ = 'th' as in 'the'
v = veinte
x = ch as in chart
z = zeta