SsgtC

Banned
Err not quite sure where you are coming from, USMC's need for (V/)STOL is firmly developed and not at all affected by the Falklands, they love their Harriers. The drivers for the JSF program to deliver variants of one plane for the USAF, USN and USMC are unchanged by TTL, As the marines want a Harrier replacement , you will get a F-35B even if it is not quite the same as OTL. What the British buy is not relevant to that decision, however the UK going it alone is out on cost grounds so any UK program(s) will be a joint one(s) with US or European involvement.
A STOVL aircraft, sure. That's a given. But seeing as STOVL didn't play nearly as big a role in TTL as it did in OTL, i don't think we'll see a supersonic stealth fighter. One of the big drivers for giving the amphib fleet high end fighters was the Falklands and how the Harrier fared. Without that, the Harrier will not be seen as a fighter, but as a bomb truck. So the USMC will eventually get a new aircraft to replace their AV-8Bs, but I doubt it's a fast fighter.
 
Considering that the ATL RAF and FAA already have F/A-18 Hornets, this aircraft is kinda pointless/superfluous

So is Typhoon. Just ask the treasury why Hornets and mebbe a few Super Hornets suffice! 😛

Although the superbug may get more interesting TTL. I was always partial on the cranked delta version.
 
British Aerospace P110, circa 1982. Cockpit design based on F-17/F-18 projects. Later became the Agile Combat Aircraft.
View attachment 544501

That's the P.110B mock up from 1981, an outgrowth of the P.106 studies. It was an entirely indigenous design (cockpit wasn't based upon F-17 / F/A-18) & did not 'become' ACA / ECA / EAP - both programmes were concurrent & aimed at fulfilling completely different AST specifications.

P.110 was always intended to be a UK only, rather than a collaborative venture & is lamented as one of the great lost opportunities of the British aircraft industry. The consensus being that it would have sold very well indeed. First flight would have been 1984 - 85. Worthy of note here, is that the underlying structural design lends itself well to the development of a carrier borne variant, whereas OTL Typhoon - the final result of the ACA and successor programmes - does not.
 
I am happy that Canada did not wait until the subs were rusting when they were bought and brought in to service. I wonder if Canada might buy some of the Batch 3 Boats?

In the 80's the Canadians were looking at buying new SSN's from either the UK or French. The RCN went for the cheap option of used Upholders instead
 

SsgtC

Banned
In the 80's the Canadians were looking at buying new SSN's from either the UK or French. The RCN went for the cheap option of used Upholders instead
Not even that, really. While they were definitely cheaper than nuke boats, the Canadians realised just how badly they weren't prepared to operate nuclear submarines. And being honest, they didn't need them for their projected missions
 

Nick P

Donor
That's the P.110B mock up from 1981, an outgrowth of the P.106 studies. It was an entirely indigenous design (cockpit wasn't based upon F-17 / F/A-18) & did not 'become' ACA / ECA / EAP - both programmes were concurrent & aimed at fulfilling completely different AST specifications.

P.110 was always intended to be a UK only, rather than a collaborative venture & is lamented as one of the great lost opportunities of the British aircraft industry. The consensus being that it would have sold very well indeed. First flight would have been 1984 - 85. Worthy of note here, is that the underlying structural design lends itself well to the development of a carrier borne variant, whereas OTL Typhoon - the final result of the ACA and successor programmes - does not.

I'm going by a couple of websites and the book that picture came from, all saying that the P110 project later merged into the ACA program. The two designs have certain similarities and you can identify the lineage. https://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/platforms/p110

The P110 will obviously not happen in this ATL but you can see what the design teams were looking ahead for in the late 70s and early 80s. The question is what they will be thinking about for a future fighter type in line with todays Typhoon. Without the Eurofighter program would the MoD have considered going it alone with an improved ACA or EAP design? Are we utterly reliant on the F-18 for air defence?

Indeed, what is the next step for the BRITISH aviation industry in this TL between 1990 and 2000?
 
I'm going by a couple of websites and the book that picture came from, all saying that the P110 project later merged into the ACA program. The two designs have certain similarities and you can identify the lineage. https://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/platforms/p110

The P110 will obviously not happen in this ATL but you can see what the design teams were looking ahead for in the late 70s and early 80s. The question is what they will be thinking about for a future fighter type in line with todays Typhoon. Without the Eurofighter program would the MoD have considered going it alone with an improved ACA or EAP design? Are we utterly reliant on the F-18 for air defence?

Indeed, what is the next step for the BRITISH aviation industry in this TL between 1990 and 2000?

Hmm. I'm going off BAE Warton's own archive & Hansard. Oh well...

P.110B didn't happen OTL as a short - sighted government pursued a multi - national solution for ACA as first promulgated in phase 2 of AST-403 from 1978 onwards & was entirely non - commital toward P.110B through late 1982. That is to say, in essence, that funding could not be justified for both programmes. In this time line, P.110B doesn't get a look in, I assume, because the author does not know much about it. I ducked out of this thread when the ludicrous decision was taken to procure F/A-18 for the RAF (DA & AV-MF say "thanks", BTW). It, and F-16 for that matter, were discounted as wholly unsuitable for the required task early in the process which led to Tornado ADV IOTL.

BAE P.120 was the 'go it alone' development of EAP, offered as insurance against the nascent Eurofighter not gaining traction. A National Audit Office review carried out in the early 2000s suggested this programme, if pursued, would have come in at half the cost of EF (and with 100% of the workshare) and almost a decade earlier
 

SsgtC

Banned
Which is why I don't think the UK going hornet is realistic. But the author has made the decision.
I could see the FAA going with the Hornet, since it's a certified pain in the ass to develop a good carrier fighter. It's partly why the UK went with Phantom as well. But it is surprising that the RAF went with F/A-18s as well.
 
I could see the FAA going with the Hornet, since it's a certified pain in the ass to develop a good carrier fighter. It's partly why the UK went with Phantom as well. But it is surprising that the RAF went with F/A-18s as well.

Not that much. Cost savings from a single fighter model would be huge, and even in OTL the F/A-18 proved it's worth with multiple air forces. The only issues I see are range and AAM payload. I remember one of the RAF's requirements at those early "Tornado-turned-interceptor" was for something with the range to patrol the North Sea. and the original F-18 was not very strong on this issue. And the F-18's standard AAM loadout is for only 2 long range AAMs.
 
Pretty much dead other than overhauls and assembling kits from other companies
That’s rather over stating the case. I should imagine rather than becoming partners on joint Euro projects, it is more likely we see the British partnering with more American companies and projects, this was a really rough time for anyone to be trying to go it alone (the defense companies in particular were all looking for someone to share costs and infuse capital into projects, which mostly happened through a pretty radical merger and consolidation process). We could easily see the British continue being major players in the market of trainers of all sorts, as well as trainer derived light combat aircraft (and those will become more popular in the budget minded post Cold War period as they have much better operating costs than junky used Cold War leftovers). There is also the possibility of a Harrier successor continuing for mostly foreign markets, and the British are the experts on that. There is quite a lot of room for the British defense industry to be major players, but they can’t be major players in every field at once anymore, even the American industry will struggle in that regard. Basically OTL Britain took a very pan-European positive stance and did so at the expense of potential deeper partnership in other directions (US, Canada, Australia, Japan, India, etc.). It is possible that this TL the British see that other directions may make more sense. It is also possible that Britain maintains most of its original trajectory and the FA-18 is a bit of a one-off procurement choice, but if Britain partners with anyone on a next gen fighter, this time it makes more sense to be a joint project with the French for a carrier plane. So we could see an Anglo-French carrier capable plane and also a German/everyone else land only plane (or an Anglo-French effort could push the Germans to buy F15 or something American instead). There are a lot of ways things can change, and those changes are dynamic, each impacts the likely choices to be made by everyone else, so it is very hard to predict.
 
Not even that, really. While they were definitely cheaper than nuke boats, the Canadians realised just how badly they weren't prepared to operate nuclear submarines. And being honest, they didn't need them for their projected missions

IIRC the Canadians were looking to deal with Soviet boats like the Akula and Sierra classes which is why they were looking for a nuke. When the cold war was over the RedBoat problem went away but they still wanted a replacement for their old Oberon class SSK's and as they no longer needed the capability of a SSN they just opted for the mothballed Upholders instead.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Not that much. Cost savings from a single fighter model would be huge, and even in OTL the F/A-18 proved it's worth with multiple air forces. The only issues I see are range and AAM payload. I remember one of the RAF's requirements at those early "Tornado-turned-interceptor" was for something with the range to patrol the North Sea. and the original F-18 was not very strong on this issue. And the F-18's standard AAM loadout is for only 2 long range AAMs.
The Hornet could actually carry a slightly larger load of AAMs than even the Tomcat could. Differences in what they were designed for. The Tomcat (for example) was designed as a long range, high speed interceptor so carried half it's missile loadout recessed in the tunnel to minimize drag. But because of that, it limited the F-14 to eight missiles.

The Hornet could carry up to ten AAMs. Two Sidewinders on the wingtip rails and up to eight more Sidewinders, Sparrows or AMRAAMs under the wings and fuselage.
 
Indeed, what is the next step for the BRITISH aviation industry in this TL between 1990 and 2000?

My theory? They are either doing P.125/Replica with or without partners, if you want to get funny Dassault at this time was looking into 5th gen concepts of its own and if Rafale became the sole European game in town earlier on France may have the finances to join in the game. Or they are bust.
 
Not that much. Cost savings from a single fighter model would be huge, and even in OTL the F/A-18 proved it's worth with multiple air forces. The only issues I see are range and AAM payload. I remember one of the RAF's requirements at those early "Tornado-turned-interceptor" was for something with the range to patrol the North Sea. and the original F-18 was not very strong on this issue. And the F-18's standard AAM loadout is for only 2 long range AAMs.
I was wondering about why the RAF would commit to an aircraft which doesn't meet their requirements, but then I wondered whether having two CATOBAR carriers might change the requirements slightly. Does the RAF need an aircraft with the range to patrol the North Sea and up in to the Norwegian Sea if the UK has aircraft carriers that can patrol up there? I'm sure that the RAF will vehemently press their case, but don't the Queen Elizabeth and Eagle turn the RAF long-range interceptor from a necessity in to a nice to have?
 
Does the RAF need an aircraft with the range to patrol the North Sea and up in to the Norwegian Sea if the UK has aircraft carriers that can patrol up there? I'm sure that the RAF will vehemently press their case, but don't the Queen Elizabeth and Eagle turn the RAF long-range interceptor from a necessity in to a nice to have?
Only if there's a carrier and air group in position when you need one. With only two carriers and world-wide commitments, that situation may be quite unlikely.
 

Nick P

Donor
Trouble is that the F-18 would have filled the role of the Jaguar but the timing is not great. By the time the FAA is getting the Hornet ITTL the RAF has 8 squadrons flying a fleet of 200 Jaguars that are barely 10-15 years old. Four of those squadrons moved over to Tornado between 1984 and 1989 so not really a huge problem.
The Jaguar fleet certainly wouldn't get the GR3 upgrade and maybe not even the full GR1A upgrade. Maybe we would have refurbished and sold some to India or Nigeria cheap.

Tornado ADV was not ideal for a fighter role but it fitted the role as a long range interceptor over the North Sea. If the F-18 did this role then the RAF would need a few more tankers.

Westland Helicopters. Does Heseltine still walk out over the Sikorsky offer to take them over?
Instead of the EH101 Merlin the RAF would get UK-built H-60 Blackhawks.
 
Pretty much dead other than overhauls and assembling kits from other companies

Yep. And that's the big problem of this scenario. Some sort of cooperation with the French on naval ECA could be a better move. With F-18 leased to bridge the gap.
 
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I was wondering about why the RAF would commit to an aircraft which doesn't meet their requirements, but then I wondered whether having two CATOBAR carriers might change the requirements slightly. Does the RAF need an aircraft with the range to patrol the North Sea and up in to the Norwegian Sea if the UK has aircraft carriers that can patrol up there? I'm sure that the RAF will vehemently press their case, but don't the Queen Elizabeth and Eagle turn the RAF long-range interceptor from a necessity in to a nice to have?

They wouldn't and nor would any UK government.

Building, manning & maintaining two CVs & then parking them in the GI-UK gap is the most expensive, least efficient & least sane solution to failing to procure a land based aircraft with the correct characteristics I can think of. AV-MF would think all their birthdays & Christmases have come at once.
 
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