Hello Stephanus,

I'm happy to defer to your narrative on details.

QE a decade early would have been built with steam catapults. QE a decade later would probably have gotten EMALS, but the program was running during a period of technical uncertainty.

I think this underlines how much better off, on the whole, the RN would have been with what it got in Flasheart's timeline: Two conventionally powered CATOBAR fleet carriers with steam catapults (designed as such from the outset), operating Hornets, with the possibility of upgrading in part or whole to Super Hornets in the 2010's: designs and choices made at a time when the technical options were clearer. The uncertainty of the capital ship question and general mission of the RN now settled, the focus going forward would have been on escorts. The decision points for possible upgrades and replacements (probably 2010's/20's for a 4.5 or 5.0 generation fighter acquisition, 2020's/2030's for carrier replacement) come when technical uncertainties would be fewer (not that this would have been apparent in the 1980's!).

Politically, Flasheart's F-18 equipped QE's also almost certainly give London just a wee bit more pull in Washington during the various secondary conflicts of the late 90's and 00's. They have more to bring to the table, and the relationship with U.S. defense industry and supply chains is closer.

In OTL, the carrier decision had the bad timing to struggle through, as you say, during an era of a lot of technical uncertainty. It wasn't clear at the outset that EMALS or the F-35B on the other hand were actually going to work out. In the end, given the budgets the Defence ministry have had to work with (the subject of another debate altogether), things actually have worked out not too shabbily for the RN. They still desperately need more escorts, but with the carriers now built, perhaps that will be possible, even post #Coronavirus.
 
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Ramontxo

Donor
I know it is a wet dream. But a RN Rafale powered by the EJ200 engines developed ITTL for the ADV Tornado would be far far better than either the Hornet or its Super sibling.
 
I think perhaps SaveTheRoyalNavy has the best take on the CATOBAR debacle, and why it probably worked out for the best in the end after all.

Those that causally disparage the RNs carriers, bemoan the ski ramp and argue for CATOBAR need to bear in mind the limitations of the defence budget and especially the manpower struggles of the armed forces. Without the 2012 U-turn, where would we be right now? Assuming the project had not been canned in SDSR 2015 having wasted even more money, HMS Queen Elizabeth might be operating as a helicopter-only carrier but due to be mothballed. HMS Prince of Wales would still be about two years away from going to sea and dependent on the US to resolve the ongoing problems with EMALS. The RN would also have to cope with a £2Bn hole in its budget which would have resulted in more cuts elsewhere. Even if there was a major uplift in defence funding, retrofitting the carriers with cats and traps would be some way down the list of priorities. Investing in more F-35Bs, in further weapons integrations and more protection for the carriers would be a better use of resources. In the long term the development of VSTOL UAVs, perhaps sharing the costs with the USMC, would seem sensible.​

I think the most bizarre objections came from Sharkey Ward, a man who made his name flying STOVL fighters off ski ramp equipped carriers, who for some reason decided he was implacably opposed to far, far, far superior STOVL fighters flying off far, far, far superior ski ramp carriers.

In an ideal world the Typhoon would have been carrier capable for the RN's existing big deck carriers back in the 1980s and we wouldn't have to buy American jets at all but we are where we are both in real life and in the HMS Eagle world.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Yes exactly. Except that if done early enough the whole thing would probably be easier (but not cheaper the defence accountant engineers* both in the private sector and their subordinates In the public one would take care of that)

*Edited to add that I suppose that "Ingeniería contable" is a term also in English
 
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I know it is a wet dream. But a RN Rafale powered by the EJ200 engines developed ITTL for the ADV Tornado would be far far better than either the Hornet or its Super sibling.
ADV Tornado had a variant of RB.199, EJ200 was for Typhoon - not sure how the difference between the two translates into Spanish though!
I'm pretty sure scrapping M.88 would be a major red line for the French - it would essentially destroy their sovereign capability to produce jet engines (already on life-support at this point), leaving them only with bits of CFM56. Makes sense from an accounting point of view, but the loss of capability is almost certainly far too much to swallow.
 
Both the RB199 and the EJ200 are larger and heavier than the M88, which would require a major redesign of (at the very least) the rear of the aircraft. The RB is less powerfull than the M88, so that's right out. While the EJ200 is more powerfull, I'm not sure if the extra power would be enough to counter the weight issues on the redesigned Rafale. Not to mention the cost of such a change.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
ADV Tornado had a variant of RB.199, EJ200 was for Typhoon -
I know but the EJ200 was specifically made to be interchangable with the RB199 so I asume that in this TL it have been used to upgrade the ADV Tornado (another wet dream)
 
From Wikipedia


EJ200 General characteristics
  • Type: Afterburning turbofan
  • Length: 398.78 cm (157.00 in)
  • Diameter: 73.66 cm (29.00 in)
  • Dry weight: 988.83 kg (2,180.0 lb)

M88 General characteristics
  • Type: Afterburning turbofan
  • Length: 353.8 cm (139.3 in)
  • Diameter: 69.6 cm (27.4 in)
  • Dry weight: 897 kg (1,978 lb)

EJ200 is a tad longer but diameter-wise, they are pretty close...
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Both the RB199 and the EJ200 are larger and heavier than the M88, which would require a major redesign of (at the very least) the rear of the aircraft. The RB is less powerfull than the M88, so that's right out. While the EJ200 is more powerfull, I'm not sure if the extra power would be enough to counter the weight issues on the redesigned Rafale. Not to mention the cost of such a change.

Yes the EJ200 is longer, wider and heavier, but it has a better thrust to weight ratio and has an better specific fuel consumtion.

the EJ200
  • Length: 398.78 cm (157.00 in)
  • Diameter: 73.66 cm (29.00 in)
  • Dry weight: 988.83 kg (2,180.0 lb)
  • Maximum thrust: 60 kN (13,500 lbf) and 90 kN (20,200 lbf) (with afterburner)
  • Thrust-to-weight ratio: 6.11:1 and 9.17:1 (with afterburner)
  • Specific fuel consumption: 21–23 g/kNs and 47–49 g/kNs (with afterburner)
the M88
  • Length: 353.8 cm (139.3 in)
  • Diameter: 69.6 cm (27.4 in)
  • Dry weight: 897 kg (1,978 lb)
  • Maximum thrust: 50 kN (11,200 lbf) and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) (with afterburner)
  • Thrust-to-weight ratio: 5.68:1 (dry) and 8.52:1 (with afterburner)
  • Specific fuel consumption: 22.14 g/kNs and 47.11 g/kNs (with afterburner)
(all data from wiki)

Yes it would have been far more expensive than an out of the production line Rafale (but less so if planed from the begining) anyway the political difficulties would be far bigger than the economic ones. The possibility of France agreing for the Rafale M to be powered by a not Snecma engine is another cuestion. Nearly ASB maybe if the UK agrees to buy Rafales if Snecma agree to coproduce the engine but very, very difficult.
 
Both the RB199 and the EJ200 are larger and heavier than the M88, which would require a major redesign of (at the very least) the rear of the aircraft. The RB is less powerfull than the M88, so that's right out. While the EJ200 is more powerfull, I'm not sure if the extra power would be enough to counter the weight issues on the redesigned Rafale. Not to mention the cost of such a change.
From what I gather Rafale's air intakes will need redesign as they are made to reduce radar return (some sort of stealth) at the expence of efficiency specially at high speed.
That's why they didn't developped a more powerfull version of the M-88 (which was asked UAE).

Yes the EJ200 is longer, wider and heavier, but it has a better thrust to weight ratio and has an better specific fuel consumtion.

the EJ200
  • Length: 398.78 cm (157.00 in)
  • Diameter: 73.66 cm (29.00 in)
  • Dry weight: 988.83 kg (2,180.0 lb)
  • Maximum thrust: 60 kN (13,500 lbf) and 90 kN (20,200 lbf) (with afterburner)
  • Thrust-to-weight ratio: 6.11:1 and 9.17:1 (with afterburner)
  • Specific fuel consumption: 21–23 g/kNs and 47–49 g/kNs (with afterburner)
the M88
  • Length: 353.8 cm (139.3 in)
  • Diameter: 69.6 cm (27.4 in)
  • Dry weight: 897 kg (1,978 lb)
  • Maximum thrust: 50 kN (11,200 lbf) and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) (with afterburner)
  • Thrust-to-weight ratio: 5.68:1 (dry) and 8.52:1 (with afterburner)
  • Specific fuel consumption: 22.14 g/kNs and 47.11 g/kNs (with afterburner)
(all data from wiki)
Hate to break it to you, but Wiki is not a reliable source for those kind of informations. Most of those are speculations from fanboys as the real data are not published.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
From what I gather Rafale's air intakes will need redesign as they are made to reduce radar return (some sort of stealth) at the expence of efficiency specially at high speed.
That's why they didn't developped a more powerfull version of the M-88 (which was asked UAE).


Hate to break it to you, but Wiki is not a reliable source for those kind of informations. Most of those are speculations from fanboys as the real data are not published.

For the parameters of this discussions I asumed both to be, more or less, equally biased and that the EJ200 is a more powerful engine only slightly bigger. And as both engines fly nowsdays for several diferent countries their general perfomance should be known.
 

SsgtC

Banned
For the parameters of this discussions I asumed both to be, more or less, equally biased and that the EJ200 is a more powerful engine only slightly bigger. And as both engines fly nowsdays for several diferent countries their general perfomance should be known.
"General" being the key word. Actual numbers are classified and not available.
 
I'm pretty sure scrapping M.88 would be a major red line for the French - it would essentially destroy their sovereign capability to produce jet engines (already on life-support at this point), leaving them only with bits of CFM56.

It was. OTL. Utterly and completely. Along with nuclear strike plus naval capability, it was one of the main causes for the Typhoon / Rafale split back in summer 1985.
Basically Rafale was to be multirole (including nuclear strike + naval) and M88 powered - when the Typhoon was to be, interceptor, first, and with RB199 legacy engines (through XJ40 demonstrator).

The only way to avoid that split is to get a different Rafale / Typhoon pre-history from 1976 to 1982. Getting Dassault and SNECMA under control won't be easy, sure. But by 1976-79 things could have been different.
In 1977 Dassault proposed a Mirage 3000 - as the name suggest, a RB-199 / F-18 sized, in-between the single-engine 2000 and the big 4000. This get SNECMA out of the way since the 2000 use their M53. So did the Mirage 4000 but the reason for the 3000 was kind of F-18 to F-14 relationship. That is, RB199, just like F404, allowed for a far more compact, much less expensive twin jet fighter. Think also MiG-29 vs Su-27.
 
It was. OTL. Utterly and completely. Along with nuclear strike plus naval capability, it was one of the main causes for the Typhoon / Rafale split back in summer 1985.
Basically Rafale was to be multirole (including nuclear strike + naval) and M88 powered - when the Typhoon was to be, interceptor, first, and with RB199 legacy engines (through XJ40 demonstrator).

The only way to avoid that split is to get a different Rafale / Typhoon pre-history from 1976 to 1982. Getting Dassault and SNECMA under control won't be easy, sure. But by 1976-79 things could have been different.
In 1977 Dassault proposed a Mirage 3000 - as the name suggest, a RB-199 / F-18 sized, in-between the single-engine 2000 and the big 4000. This get SNECMA out of the way since the 2000 use their M53. So did the Mirage 4000 but the reason for the 3000 was kind of F-18 to F-14 relationship. That is, RB199, just like F404, allowed for a far more compact, much less expensive twin jet fighter. Think also MiG-29 vs Su-27.

Did 3000 really exist even as an idea? IMS it was mentioned in a flightglobal article at the time and never showed up elsewhere?

I'm more partial to a RR - Snecma consortium coming to being back in the 1960s.
 
What exactly is the meaning this was supposed to convey in context?

FOUND IT!!!!

Re: Modern Fighter Combat by Salamander - BAe Sea Harrier

. . . and the first experiments involving ship board basing and operations date back to 1963, when test pilots Bill Bedford and Hugh Merewether carried out a series of take offs and landings on the deck of HMS Ark Royal. An Admiral watching the proceedings latter commented that the thing struck him most was

"the almost complete absence of fright"


I think the Admiral was commentating on both the pilots . . . . and the deck crew as well.

Regards filers
 
FOUND IT!!!!

Re: Modern Fighter Combat by Salamander - BAe Sea Harrier

. . . and the first experiments involving ship board basing and operations date back to 1963, when test pilots Bill Bedford and Hugh Merewether carried out a series of take offs and landings on the deck of HMS Ark Royal. An Admiral watching the proceedings latter commented that the thing struck him most was

"the almost complete absence of fright"


I think the Admiral was commentating on both the pilots . . . . and the deck crew as well.

Regards filers
Thanks, that clarifies your point rather handily with the context.
 
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