Founding the German Empire.......in 1815

Well, the tension between Austria and Germany seems pretty interesting. If the Bavarian conflict was any indication, the Habsburgs will most definitely be furious that influence in Germany has shifted away from Vienna.

You can probably expect Austria to ally with France some time in the future, but not immediately. I honestly think the 1820s would be peaceful...at least as much as a colonial rush could be. I wouldn't expect Germany to openly push for colonies until sometime in the 1830s because the German Empire is still busy building a stable economy (i.e. industrializing).

So German foreign policy in the 1820s may resemble Bismarck's foreign policy after the Franco-Prussian War. What goes on in Russia, the United Kingdom, the Ottoman Empire, the Netherlands and France is another matter entirely.
 
firstly were going to have some "quit" years where Bavaria is going to be in extreme unrest while everyone is trying to get used to the idea of a united Germany. Austria will realise that winning through deception isn't going to work with them and might enter into a alliance with France to contain Germany on the continent, which could prove to be a catalyst for the Germans to begin to explore and start their ship building industry. Also the surging middle class is going to cray for more rights and power in the government with some bloody clashes between the aristocracy and the middle-class. if you want I can right some detailed time line for the next 5 or so years.
 
That'd be great, LDoc. As you can see, I don't do as well with times of peace. I promise, I'm much better when it comes to war and conflict.

And if anyone else wants to join in and add a few years, be my guest.

By the way, did you get a look at the monarchs? I wanted them to be different and I succeeded at that. I don't know if they're remotely possible though. ;)
 
Royal lines get so mixed up i don't see why they couldn't, but yeah i'll get started on the peaceful years.
 
What if the Empire of the Germans does push for colonies, around 1820-1825, and in fact offers to buy Texas from either Spain or Mexico?

We know that a lot of the earlier settlers were German, and this was a period of time when many were emmigrating to the States. In addition, after the Mexican Independence from Spain they allowed extensive colonization from other countries, an offer taken up mostly by americans.

Having a colony on North American soil would probably put their ambitions on a collision course with both Great Britain and the US at different points of time.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Hmmm

Hmmm... I managed to miss this thread

First IMHO you need a different POD - but you COULD have that. Have Blucher delayed, or have Wellington lose Waterloo before his arrival. Then have the Prussians absolutely instrumental in defeating Napoleon - throw in another couple of battles, say Blucher first halts Napoleon after Napoleon triumphs at Waterlook, then he leads an advance necessitating another couple of battles under Prussian auspices.

Therefore, at Vienna there is a drastic shift in the relative positions of the powers - Britain is less, Prussia is more. Maybe combine that with Metternich's death (he was so shocked when Blucher defeated Napoleon that he fell under a carriage, lol). Because of longer French resistance, and perhaps a certain resilience showing that the French were more committed to Napoleon's return than in OTL, there is more of a desire to punish France than to simply hand it back intact to Louis XVIII for the second time

I still think that there needs to be an interim stage between having lots of small princes etc and having even a federal empire - if you look at OTL you have the North German Confederation fill that role. You could go down that route here

There are going to be historical changes with regard to other lands - quite possible a complete division of Saxony for example. OTL there was also a lot of horse-trading of lands including Austria, Prussia and Bavaria and things could go somewhat differently in these.

You would then need to go from this interim stage to a more unified one, requiring another POD.

But those ubiquitous butterflies like to play games. Britain has been harder hit in this TL. Perhaps its internal politics are really screwed up into the near future - maybe the working class pose such a threat that in the early 1830s Victoria's family has to leave their S London home one night, she catches a chill and dies. Enter Ernest Augustus

I think everyone needs clearing up on Ernest. Victoria was before him in the line of succession. Ernest was not knocked aside in Britain, nor did the fact of his accesion to Hannover make him invalid as King of Britain (William IV who just died had held both titles). What happened was that Victoria could not accede to Hannover because it did not allow female succession. Therefore the succession skipped to the next in line for that kingdom and that was Ernest. You thus HAVE to have Victoria die before Ernest can become King of England

Ernest is not a consensus figure, he was an extreme Protestant and Ultra Tory. Whilst I believe his accession in OTL would not have been as bad as some people predict, in an ATL with more internal difficulties it could very well lead to civil war, not just in Ireland but across the entire country. If he wins, then you have a radically different Britain

If you have a civil war, then Britain-in-Hannover is not able to project its influence into N Germany. Maybe the 1830s Russo-Turkish War develops into a longer and more extensive affair, the birth of Greece sucks everyone into a deeper war, and much of Europe is distracted. Prussia is in a position now to push harder, to maybe enact internal reforms of the Confederation and impose a more central authority. Remember Saxony doesn't exist, Hannover is still British and perhaps Prussia chooses the time to go to war with Denmark over Schleswig-Holstein

Enter into the 1840s, perhaps the Orleanists have been elevated to power in Paris earlier than OTL - if Charles X inherits a less stable throne from Louis XVIII then his attempts to rule with the Ultras may lead to an earlier and fully-fledged civil war. Have this occur in the late 1830s and Prussia's opportunity as above would be perfect

Maybe Prussia even forces Nassau and the Hesse's into the Confederation. This leaves you with only the Catholic South and the British Hannover remaining outside of Prussian dominance

IMHO 1848 is not likely to happen in this TL - the various late 1830s conflicts have sucked a lot of its juice out. Certain factors may occur as in OTL, but say Ferdinand of Orleans is still alive, then even if the economy of his father's governance cause an uprising, its probable that the monarchy survives with Ferdinand now king after his father's abdication. There may well be problems in N Italy with Austria, but these have roots of their own

Prussia has altered the reality in Germany so drastically that the spread of revolution across the states as in OTL is not likely to happen. Apart from the impetus in Paris being missing to the same extent, the small courts are subsumed into a larger entity and the cause of German unity already seems to have a favour, albeit one the Liberals will not much like !

What one has here is Prussia able to take advantage due an initial advantage that has weakened its rivals (Britain and France), and then later benefitting from either their distraction (war in the East) or internal problems to extend its own interests

If you want to complete German unification you have a problem - Britain in Hannover, and Bavaria especially. But do you need to complete it BEFORE a Russo-Turkish rematch ? Could not that war itself be the spur to bringing events within Germany to a conclusion ?

Grey Wolf
 
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Great ideas, Grey. Perhaps there's a way we could have the German Empire united earlier. Is there any way we could get Germany united in the 16th, 17th, or 18th centuries?

I imagine one of the biggest problems in German unification is the differences between Protestant North and Catholic South. (Someone tell me if I'm wrong). So, considering this, maybe it would be easier to unite Germany if the Catholic South was not Catholic. Any possible way the Protestant Revolution could spread south? or is that ASB territory?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Deep

Walter_Kaufmann said:
Great ideas, Grey. Perhaps there's a way we could have the German Empire united earlier. Is there any way we could get Germany united in the 16th, 17th, or 18th centuries?

I imagine one of the biggest problems in German unification is the differences between Protestant North and Catholic South. (Someone tell me if I'm wrong). So, considering this, maybe it would be easier to unite Germany if the Catholic South was not Catholic. Any possible way the Protestant Revolution could spread south? or is that ASB territory?

I certainly think thats Thirty Years War territory, at least. I don't see much likelihood afterwards, but admit I am journeying outside of my areas of so-called expertise

Regarding the religious divide, this is definitely a problem for unification. I would add into the mix Bavarian identity as well - it was one of the original dukedoms of Germany, and has been a major power and a de facto independent one for as long as any state in the area. Its not about to accept absorption without beng in extremis.

Interestingly, during the Crimean War the Prime Minister of Bavaria, bemoaning the inability of the German Confederation to act in a unified manner, pointed out that Bavaria was the equal of a Belgium or a Portugal and wished to be as able as those powers to act freely and in is own interests on the international stage

Grey Wolf
 
The south wont turn Protestent after the 30 years war for the simply reason taht Austria wont let them. Any threat to Catholic Bavaria and Austria will almost be forced to stop the threat and create a whole new series of religouse wars in the processes, and everyone knows this.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Tone

LDoc said:
The south wont turn Protestent after the 30 years war for the simply reason taht Austria wont let them. Any threat to Catholic Bavaria and Austria will almost be forced to stop the threat and create a whole new series of religouse wars in the processes, and everyone knows this.

What do you mean 'everyone knows this' and why use that tone with me ?

If the ATL is changing the whole dynamics of the Thirty Years War and obviously the outcome then you ALREADY HAVE the new series of religious wars, they simply occur instead of the OTL ones

Grey Wolf
 
i mean the other countries know this not the people on the board my fault. I also don't see Germany uniting in the religouse wars because their are simply to many outside influnces fighting in Germany. The Swedes don't want a strong southern neighbor and the French not a strong eastern neighbor. If the germans are forced to fight alone they will simply be decimated as they were before the other nations intervened.
 

Faeelin

Banned
From a post on AH.com I did, about an earlier united Germany.

1807- Treaty of Tilsit. Prussia abolished. Britain captures Copenhagen.

Junot invades Portugal in November; the King sails for Brazil. Jerome gets his kingdom in Westphalia, which he bleeds dry.

1808- Continuing slapstick events in Spain. He rebukes Charles IV for conspiring to prevent the marriage of Prince Ferdinand and Napoleon’s niece, and tells him that Ferdinand is plotting to overthrow him which he is. With the Bourbon’s at each other’s throats, Napoleon moves 180,000 men into Spain in February. Passions boil over at Aranjuez, where a mob of soldiers, peasants, and stable boys force Charles IV to dismiss Godoy and abdicate in favor of Ferdinand IV.

He then offers to mediate between the Bourbons. They travel to Bayonne, where after a week, Ferdinand passes the crown back to Charles who gives it to Napoleon, who then gives it to his brother Joseph.

The Spanish, predictably, take the view that they don’t want a Corsican as their king. Murat suppresses risings in Madird, Badajoz falls to the mob, and Valencia, Asturias, and Seville rebel. When Murat complains about supplies, Napoleon lectures him on how a “general at the head of 50,000 troops should take things instead of asking for them”. Inspired as much by depression as the changes the French want, the entire country goes up in flames. 19,000 Frenchmen actually surrender, and are promptly crucified/tortured/castrated.

Resistance spreads to Portugal, and Wellesley defeats Junot.

This year also sees the Erfurt Conference, in which Napoleon tries to woo the Tsar. It fails miserably, due to economic and political differences. The Kings of Bavaria, Saxony, Wuttemburg, and the dukes and princes of the Confederation are there, to pay homage to their overlord.

He attempts to marry the Grand Duchess Catherine, and it fails.

Thus, Napoleon returns to Spain on the 29th of October with 160,000 men. The 3rd Polish Light Horse is forced to charge the Spanish guns, giving us a preview of OTL’s Charge of the Light Brigade. Only in December does Madrid fall. Napoleon responds to the revolt by putting in sweeping reforms, including the abolishment of feudalism, the Bourbon taxation system, and the inquisition. When some notables protest to the presence of hundreds of thousands of pillaging Imperial troops on Spanish territory, he informs them that “your grandchildren will bless me as their redeemer”.

They are, needless to say, less than impressed.

He finishes up the year chasing the British, who withdraw out of Spain.

1809- Austria prepares for war. They have four reasons for this:

1) The Emperor is busy in Spain.
2) The Czar won’t help Napoleon.
3) France was wear-weary.
4) Finally, there is the belief in a nascent nationalism in Germany and Austria.

Despite Emperor Francis’s best efforts, Austria is drawn into the war. Due to butterflies, their campaign plan isn’t changed, and remains the original plan: they hope to spark rebellion in the Confederation of the Rhine by reaching the river.

Napoleon’s errors are largely due to his assumption that the war would be fought in Italy again, and put his main effort there.

On April 9 the Austrians march, and they reach Frankfurt on the 25th. Napoleon fights the Battle of Frankfurt, and Charles and the Emperor end up slogging it out in southern Germany. Buy July 14th, the Emperor has his decisive victory. Britain tries and fails to liberate Holland at Walcheren. The Treaty of Schonbrunn gives France Carinthia, Carniola, most of Croatia, and Bavaria gains Salzburg. The Grand Duchy of Warsaw gains northern and eastern Galicia, Krakow, and Lublin. Austria has to pay a huge indemnity, limit its army to 150,000 men, and disgorge Silesia to the Kingdom of Saxony. He marries into the Hapsburg family as in OTL.

1810-Holland is annexed to the France. The Pope is imprisoned. Catalonia, Aragon, Navarre, and Guipuzcoa are placed under direct French control. Massena’s invasion of Portugal in September fails, losing 5,000 men. Bernadotte becomes the King of Sweden as in OTL, which also controls Pomerania.

1811- Napoleon famously warns the Russian ambassador in Paris that he has 800,000 troops. When the Ambassador replies that Russia will not submit, Napoleon states that “If you’re counting on allies, where are they?” Wellington advances on Madrid.

1812- War of 1812 breaks out. Napoleon invades Russia, with Austria providing 30,000 men. Frederick of (East) Prussia joins the Tsar. With the aim of preventing the Russian army in the north from meeting with the one in the south, he pushes along on the “Orsha Land bridge”, marching straight into the heart of Russia. The Czar’s army withdraws to the East. The great battles of Boredino and Smolensk are the toughest the Emperor ever had, and by the time he reaches Moscow, he only has 160,000 men left out of a force which once numbered half a million.

As the remaining Frenchmen retreat west, and the prisoners captured by the Russians are tortured in various unpleasant ways, Napoleon travels back to Paris.

Wellington begins moving into Spain. There’s also the Papal headache, and Napoleon tries to come to a new Concordat. The pope signs it but then is convinced otherwise.

1813- The Russians cross the Vistula and occupy Warsaw on the 7th. Frederick William of Prussia joins the war against Eugene, whose Duchy of Brandenburg is now the battleground.

However, with the partition of Prussia, there are no 80,000 rack troops to be put on the field. Bernadotte does have his 28,000 Swedes, of course. In France, resistance to the draft takes on a political movement, and the draft dodgers have widespread support. Thanks to Herculean tasks, he manages to call up 510,000 men. But the new army is very poor, especially in cavalry.

Napoleon fights the 1813 campaignb etween the elbe and the Oder, using the cities of Magdeburg and Hamburg as pivots. He relieves 150,000 French troops bottled up in the Vistula fortresses and turns Kutusov’s flank. The Confederation reluctantly throws itself into the war with Bonaparte. Lutzen is a fierce battle, but Napoleon triumphs, almost encircling the Russian army, but the lack of horse prevents his victory. The Russians retire to the Vistula, having lost 30,000 men, compared to the Emperor’s 10,000. The Russians get 13,000 more reinforcements in May. Napoleon attempts a grand encirclement at Warsaw which fails, thanks largely to Ney. (Some things never change, eh?) Duroc is killed in the battle.

Metternich then offers to mediate. Each side regards it as a lull; Russia feels that it can’t continue the war successfully unless Austria joins it, and France needs Austria to win. Austria demands the restoration of Illyria and Italy, Russia demands the dissolution of Poland, and the neutralization of Germany. Napoleon refuses, but Metternich is not yet confident enough in the abilities of the Austrians to join the war . The armistice lasts until September 14, when word reaches them of the war in Spain.

By June 20, Wellington has won the victory of Vittoria, and the French were forced to abandon 150 guns, equipment, paintings, money, and all the treasures of Madrid.The French flee to the Pyrenees, Beehtoven composes Wellington’s Victory, but he cannot press on into Aragon. San Sebastian falls on the 1st of September, to an orgy of rape and pillage by the British army.

The campaigns of 1813 end with Europe exhausted.

1814- The 1814 campaign opens up with the entrance of Austria into the war. Sweden has 50,000 men, Austria 317,000, and Russia 254,000. This totals some 600,000 men, opposed by Napoleon’s 600,000. The Army of the North is formed under Bernadotte, the Army of Silesia is formed under Charles, the Russian army of Poland, and an army of Bohemia.

The Emperor’s strategy is to oppose them with his main force of 250,000 in seven corps, while 120,000 men under Oudinot would advance on Berlin and deal with the Army of the North. Napoleon tries to use his force to pin the Allied armies down, but each individual army withdraws before him. When he marches against the Army of Poland, the Army of Bohemia marches on Dresden. When he tries to flank the army of Bohemia, he has to withdraw to Berlin to stop the Army of Poland from taking the city.

On the 5th of May the Allies try to blast their way into Berlin, but Napoleon launches a counterattack to regain all the grund lost during the day. By the third day of fighting the Battle of Berlin, the Allies had lost 38,000 casualties to the French 10,000. IT was now the Czar’s turn to appeal the Emperor to continue the battle.

But Oudinat had been defeated; on the road to Danzig and MacDonaald had lost the battle in Silesia. Napoleon has to withdraw to Dresden to resist being encircled, and Berlin is liberated in July.

Meanwhile the Duke of Wellington is marching into Southern France. Bordeaux opens its gates to Wellington’s army, and Toulon falls in May. Soult fights desperately to defend Toulouse while the people of Toulouse openly discuss seceding from France to form a “kingdom of the Midi” under the Bourbons in the event of peace.

It’s the invasion of southern France that shakes Napoleon out of his stupor. He begins making proposals to Austria to break them out of the alliance: He will give them Venezia, Ancona, Illyria, and Tuscany in exchange for peace with him. When peace is reached between him and Russia, he will step down from the throne and place his son on it with his wife, Marie-Louise, on the council of regents.

The Austrians consider it, but ultimately reject it. Still, they are much less inclined to support the war.

We finally see Murat switch sides, a bit later than OTL, in July. It is thanks to him that Eugene is forced to withdraw from his kingdom. Murat’s troops are perceived as saviors by the properties classes in Tuscany and Rome, who now turn to Murat to restore order. Veneto is abandoned in August. Brescia, however, holds out until November of 1814.

(Incidentally, I’m writing this while listening to 1812. Lots of fun).

1815- Early in the year, the British liberate Genoa, which promptly collapses. Soult manages to defeat the Duke of Wellington in his advance on Paris from the South and retakes Bordeaux, but the British. The Battle of Leipzig is fought in a blinding snowstorm, and Napoleon’s defeat there seals the fate of the Confederation of the Rhine. Hamburg falls in March.

Louis XVIII returns to Marseilles in April, and the Royalists there begun playing a new song, “The Return of the King.” He turns out to be an old windbag and not well liked, but he’s not Napoleon and he’s not causing the port to blockaded by the British.

It’s helped that The Tsar now enthusiastically supports Vom Stein’s plans for Germany under his Central Administrative Council. Two years of war with the princes has disillusioned him and made him less than desirable for peace. Vom Stein becomes the de facto ruler of Nassau, Hesse-Darmstadt and Baden in July, along with the other members of his Council. A revolt in favor of the deposed elector breaks out in Westphalia, which ends up leading to a widespread movement in Berg and eventually into Holland as regiments desert in droves to Vom Stein.

Amsterdam welcomes the Prince of Orange back in August, a Spanish style war breaks out on Cevennes and Central France. There are poor harvests through Europe in this year, although Napoleon’s victory at the 2nd Battle of Frankfurt stop the Allies from crossing the Rhine. It is after the stunning battle, when the Emperor is in his top form, that he drinks too much wine and dies.

1816- With Britain’s national debt at over 900,000,000 pounds sterling, the Emperor dead, and the Tsar becoming impatient and increasingly desirous to play Napoleon, the Congress of Vienna is formed.

France establishes a regency under Eugene de Beauharnais, Marie-Louise, and Lucien Bonaparte. It keeps Wallonia, Savoy, and some of the Rhineland (notably the Southern Palatinate) but is forced to cede the rest to Vom Stein’s Central Administrative Council.

Austria gains Bologna and Tuscany as parts of the Italian Kingdom (replacing OTL’S Lombard-Venetian one). Sardinia gains Genoa as compensation for Savoy.

Britain keeps whatever colonies it pleases, as in OTL. This includes notably Singapore and Ceylon. Hanover is restored.

The Kingdom of Prussia cedes East Prussia to the Russians in return for a slice of Saxony. Sweden is not forced to give up Pomerania, however. The Kingdom of Prussia is renamed the Kingdom of Brandenburg. Austria keeps Silesia.

In keeping with the policy of setting up a series of strong states around France’s borders, the Dutch receive Flanders. (Which is likely to prove more stable than all of Belgium).

The question, of course, is “Who will keep the watch on the Rhine?”, as Alexander famously asks. This is compounded by the fact that none of the Allies really trust the princes. Bavaria collaborated, Saxony collaborated, Hanover was overrun, Prussia collapsed like a house of cards, etc.

It’s eventually decided to have them form a German federation. Austria is excluded from the organization, lest it dominate it as well. (And Austria isn’t especially trusted. Too many ties to the French).

So, Vom Stein gains control of Westphalia, the Rhineland minus the French territories, Baden, Hesse-Darmstadt, and Nassau (Whose princes are deposed after failing to meet the demands of the Central Administrative Council, and as punishment for collaborating to the end. They retain their titles, of course).

This state is part of a Federation with Saxony, Brandenburg, Wuttemburg, Bavaria, Mecklenburg,Oldenburg, and the other states of the Federation. (Bavaria was almost tossed to Austria, actually, but that would’ve made it too strong).

Russia receives all of the Polish territories, naturally.

There. Germany has a unified state in the west, with only hanover, brandenburg, and silesia missing.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Wow. That's very detailed. Oh, wait, you edited it.

Yeah, and it also proves my point. To get a unified germany, I had to keep the bonapartes in power in france, give them wallonia and savoy, and make the war last longer. Then I had to have the german populace become anti-monarchist.

In other words, by the time you unify germany,a crimean war is very unlikely.

A european war as Napoleon's son tries to reach the rhine and the Russians move on constantinople, now...
 
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