Eisen, Blut und Fernhandel -German Unification in the 1860s

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
It implies everything was pretty much okay, and if only someone had just made the one intelligent suggestion, everyone who mattered would see the wisdom and want to support it.

Hi!
This viewpoint of yours is incorrect on that. That Era, like most times on Earth was a mikado of differing interests, wants, etc. if you know this Era as well as you say, you know it already.

Well, two general thoughts. Implications are subjective, not a matter of being correct or incorrect. Your writing implies what I said. It also implies much more, including a lot that will not be so pretty (as you say). I take it you mean it wasn't a deliberate implication?

Second, I'd like to be clear:

Honestly I'm more familiar in research terms with the nature of politicking outside of the US, and the largest part of that is early-modern European history.

As I hoped would be obvious from that, I'm not claiming special expertise, much less greater expertise than your own. I have a decent grounding, as I said. I'm in no position to tell you you're wrong, and if you check carefully you'll note that I still haven't. I've said it seems wrong. It doesn't fit with what knowledge I do have of the general tenor. Decision-makers seem oddly biased, and they all seem to be biased with your end-goal as a magnetic pole.

But that's easy enough to deal with: You've clearly done the research. Just show us how I'm wrong. Information on the kinds of people these men were and why they'd make these decisions, or pointing out the bits that almost happened, or anything. I've already conceded on Austria, and would be more than happy to give you the benefit of the doubt on the internal debate among the German delegation to Japan.

Or just move on. I'm just one guy driving your post count up, after all. Ignore me even, though I really hope you don't as I somehow still hope to be taken as a constructive critic. In the end if it came down to your motivation, I'd rather you write than argue with me.

Putting von Schmoller there making his suggestion works only because of the general situation at that point. It pulls a different lever, but the framework stays the same. A lot of what happened up to now ATL in necessity-driven and a convoluted mixture of prestige, opportunism and a shot of wisdom by some.
The opposition to that does not magically go puff overnight. Do you truly believe e.g. a guy like Matsusaida gives up without fighting for his convictions? Or von Biegeleben just sitting in a chair, drinking a wine until von Rechberg comes back? We are roughly just a year (if we count from the moment Schmoller becomes part of the Eulenburg expedition) into the ATL!

Well my biggest objection's still the Tenno, followed by the quick shuffle in the Zollverein meetings, definitely not either of those. You have been clear that opposition is out there.

I just hope you can give a peek under the hood where things make less obvious sense.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi Admiral!
I likewise do not claim to be the end all expert on history. I researched well for this and my other timelines, which is the reason on some points the Castle walls stand, on others I always like to hear more..

I always have an ear for constructive critic and I can tell you, not all commenters on my or others TLs over time tried to be constructive. Because you are obviously interested and not a "I read it in the propaganda scrap I found in the attic"(these guys are something else! They don´t even believe their own nations documents, if it does not conform with their view), I will answer you a bit more, since it seems we both wrote around each other on some topics.

the Tenno: Like the Shogun, he is between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, he wants to overthrow the Shogun and that was "easy" in OTL, since even the friendliest treaties were not really good for Japan. On the other hand, both leaders of Japan know that Japan has to do something and fast or they fall under the heels of the "Whites".
In OTL the events made the slide of the Shogunate quick, but Japan was very vulnerable for a time and only a bit of luck helped them through fast enough.
Now ATL Japan got a treaty proposal that is obviously fair and potentially very favourable. Even if it means to work together with the Shogun, this treaty is too good to blow it. The Tenno cannot see the future, where Japan has the luck it needs. No, from the Tenno´s view, who can guess how unstable Japan will be when the Shogunate falls, to refuse the german proposal is something Japan cannot afford. The Germans might have made a good first impression, but it is the hard realpolitik why the Tenno ATL does it.

Eulenburg expedition: The prussian leaders of the expedition were briefed that the voyage was not only for friendship and economic treaties, but for political gains over Austria as well. If successful, Prussia would gain a lot of standing in the medium states, because Berlin could show that it cared about the needs of the other states, who could not really do such endevours on their own. Bonus points on the way to a unification under Prussia. That was the unofficial main goal.
Now OTL, the voyage was a success, but less than wanted, since only one treaty could be made. It helped, but it was not the top.
ATL we have with von Schmoller the outside-the-box-thinker, who was missed in OTL. At the time Schmoller makes his proposal, the delegation is in Japan for months already, a bit less than in OTL, but quite a time. Zu Eulenburg knows what his King in Berlin wants from him and presages, that it will not function. Schmoller´s proposal is the best shot he has to get what he shall bring to Berlin and in the long run, this unusual solution can be a boon as well. As the membership of Japan is on probation basis, the german states and Japan have time to see were the voyage will go, before something permanent is done.

Zollverein meetings: Even back then a lot of the delegations were full of guys with brains. The ATL expedition brought the treaties all hoped for back to Europe. Prussia got the prestige they wanted and at the same time drove a wedge deeper between Austria and the rest of the states. Prussia did something the Austrians could not.
Japan now being a member of the Zollverein for at least 10 years, was definitely a surprise no one had counted with. At first, this was not seen so positive by many. But after the reports about the situation there and the meeting with the japanese delegation, this changed. All the stuff the Japanese would need to modernize, all the exotic stuff the Japanese had and could sell here for nicer prices for the german states through the membership. This was an obvious big fish economically and one where both sides could observe how it would go.
In OTL Japanese and Germans hit off well right from the start, so ATL is no different, even better since the treaty is fairer. The end of the Zollverein meeting is a paperclip moment. After the fact, nobody can see how it could function before. THe potential gains for the german states are so great, for the drive to industrialize more, that it is clear how incredibly dumb a negative answer would be.

One thing has nothing to do with history at all. My time for a hobby like this has constraints, so to get ahead, some implied events, PoVs get less "screentime" than they could get and I have materials on.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

Here is a new part for you dear readers. Since it might interest Admiral Matt, the coming these days chapter 5 will have some info about problems the nations have. Enjoy and please comment!

4. Reactions, Reactions - or not

"Exotic looking guys. Decidedly different. Very polite behaviour. A far cry from what you would expect from a people far, far away. Hell, the sailors from France or God beware Australia behave more like wild ones from the Jungle than these ... Japanese did. They can always come back."
Karl Hagedorn, pub owner in Hamburg

"After being here for a while, the Germans look to me like a slightly barbaric, white version of us. They can teach us a lot, as we can teach a lot to them. Maybe Amaterasu had a hand in our meeting. There are worse friends to be had."
Hideki Toda, member of the Takeuchi mission

"I remember that time, it was difficult to paint the caricature. When I heard about the events which brought the Japanese to Prussia, I made a first draft, but I had to bin it quite fast. The first visit was full of blunders out of non-knowledge - from both. There was subtle mocking sometimes, but our two sides had impressed each other. There was heartfelt friendliness... how to make a fitting caricature of that? I think finally I found a good way. A little necking, nothing more."
Bruno Schirmer, caricature painter (the attached image is an OTL caricature of the Takeuchi mission. It´s age can be fully seen in the title. Back then for a few years the Japanese were called "Japanesen" before changing to the more grammatically correct "Japaner". The sentence can be best translated as: Mutual admiration on the Gendarmenmarkt with the melody: We are all dashingly people! The original painter may forgive me, but I never could find out his real name)

"We did guess it already when we were ordered to sail to Hamburg shortly after a short stay in Stettin... But the machinists topped it by pinning a banner over the door to the engine room: "Sail with Thetis-Line! Your way to East Asia and back!" The Commodore laughed as well, I can tell you, but once we neared Hamburg unfortunately it had to go. We are a Navy ship after all"
Heinz Albers, Navigator of SMS Thetis

The first reactions in Europe were less than wild. With the exception of the slighted feeling Austrians, most other nations were "Oh, another Great Power making a treaty with the Asians."
When it became known that the German states had made a deeper treaty with Japan, the reaction changed to mocking. Mostly from the normal citizens, but in part up to heads of state and government. At a time were Europe and to a lesser degree the United States could dictate the terms, letting the non-europeans get away with less than maximum own "profit", was seen as a weakness or needless compassion.
Only few circles, among them the french followers of economist Jean-Baptiste Say, saw the potentially far greater gains the Germans knowingly or unknowingly could get. Indeed, it would be under Premier Jules Ferry shortly before the turn of the century, that France would be the second Great Power to model her own version of a treaty after the example set in 1860.

In the German states themselves, the round trip of the japanese delegation had been a success. It had at times been bumpy, both sides too unused to the general behaviour of the other. There had been awkwardness due to the inquisitiveness of Germans and Japanese, but both had impressed each other. A general friendliness had been everywhere, explicitly mentioned in the reports of the envoys.
When the mission prepared for their voyage home, it was clear that Germans and Japanese had positively impressed each other. This is even more remarkable due to the Era. At that time in history most Europeans considered non-Europeans and the Japanese all non-Japanese as quasi-savages "fresh from the trees".
This good first impression, along with the new entry in the Zollverein, had made the specialists of the various state governments work overtime.

japanesen_in_berlin.jpg
 

RavenMM

Banned
Is there any chance that Japan will be called something different in german now? Being german and having been to japan for some time, I'm much more interested in the cultural ramifications of this deal... well especially for Germany. With prussian school uniforms, many german loan words and many older medics and scientists learning in germany, I think germany had a strong influence on new japanese culture. But there is so much else, the spa culture, with onsen and Kurbädern for example. And thinking about the national kitchen... the fusion of german and japanese style cooking on Ezo will be interesting... and cabbage will be the common denominator. ;) And Rollmops/(later) Bismarckhering should be well liked in japan... when the first "poor" japanese/german people, I think they'll find more similarities...yeah.. I'll think I'm addicted to this TL :p

Edit: Do you have plans for Austria and the Suez Channel? Afaik they profited big time from it, and if they so the minor german states that they mke trading to the east faster and ccheaper, they could get much diplomatic goodwill.
 
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Deimos

Banned
I can only reinforce the interest others have already expressed concerning this timeline.

Economic factors and concerns are rarely a focal point when discussing alternate history.
Historically, Germany had one of the largest merchant marines at the beginning of the 20th century. I think there is a big chance of increasing the number German merchant ships (10% of overall shipping worldwide in 1914, if I remember correctly). I can only imagine the same goes for Japan once they are able to build their own ships.
As has been said above, the cultural ramifications would also be fascinating.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

@RavenMM, Deimos
Thanks again for your interest and comments! I hope to get out a new part tomorrow evening.
It was one of the reasons I began this TL because of the scarity of TLs which lay an eye on cultural and economic aspects. Esp. since a lot of important events were fueled by one or both.
Japan or Nippon: This is still something I am pondering. For quite a time in ATL Japan will still be called Japan in Germany. This is the 19th century, so such things change not too fast. But with a closer cultural connection, this might change. Raven, you are definitely interested in Japan as well. What would you say: Keping Japan or does Germany take a loanword like Nippon in the long run? Even my japanese friends are divided on that, if closer ties would have led to a loanword taken.
Austria: The Suez-Channel is now a higher priority for the german states than before. Under the ATL circumstances it is for Austria too. Esp. the "Austria first" faction will see the potential political gain if trade to the Far East can in part flow via Austria. Von Biegeleben has still not lost, so he will do anything o get his vision through.
Culture and it´s effects: It will not only be interesting for Germany and Japan, but for other nations as well. While the focus will lie on the ramifications for Germany and Japan, their example will influence (more or less) other nations and their actions over time. And over the 150 ATL years to now, in some cases it will be good, in others bad.
 

Deimos

Banned
[...]
Japan or Nippon: This is still something I am pondering. For quite a time in ATL Japan will still be called Japan in Germany. This is the 19th century, so such things change not too fast. But with a closer cultural connection, this might change. Raven, you are definitely interested in Japan as well. What would you say: Keping Japan or does Germany take a loanword like Nippon in the long run? Even my japanese friends are divided on that, if closer ties would have led to a loanword taken.


I may not be the person this is addressed to and I apologize if it is perhaps preposperous of me to give input but I believe there may be a case we can use as a precedent to solve this question.

As far as I am aware Germans simply refer to US citizens usually as "Amerikaner" and denote products/customs etc. associated with the US as "amerikanisch".
However, when talking about the actual federal state they are more precise and more correctly define it as "Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika" or just the first two of these words.

It would be perhaps be plausible if such a distinction is made with Japan/Nippon because of the above precedent. Or maybe the usage of keigo and the diplomats, politicians and journalists wanting to show off their sophistication or supposed proximity to their new trading partner by calling Japan the "Empire of Nippon" influence one another.
 

Beer

Banned
I may not be the person this is addressed to and I apologize if it is perhaps preposperous of me to give input but I believe there may be a case we can use as a precedent to solve this question.
Hi Deimos!
This is NOT preposterous of you to give your comments on this: As I wrote well before, I am always glad when you dear readers give critic, praise, hints, etc!
Beside that, you made a good point for a loanword resolution. One I considered as well, but still think about because as a german native I can´t help thinking about the different wordforms, to keep out a too ponderous construction. In the case of "Nippon" as a full loan, it could function with a slight contraction in some wordforms like the genitive attribute to keep it handy.
 

RavenMM

Banned
Japan or Nippon: This is still something I am pondering. For quite a time in ATL Japan will still be called Japan in Germany. This is the 19th century, so such things change not too fast. But with a closer cultural connection, this might change. Raven, you are definitely interested in Japan as well. What would you say: Keping Japan or does Germany take a loanword like Nippon in the long run? Even my japanese friends are divided on that, if closer ties would have led to a loanword taken.

Well, thanks for asking for my opinion :) After thinking about this for some time, I think most german people will still use Japan instead of another loan word. They are used that most languages don't refer to Deutschland with anything close, but with words from different roots... the neighbours in the north, east, south and west all have different wordstems for germany and only the northern languages sound close to Deutschland. But in the other languages, it can be germany, allemange or niemcy. So I think most people don't feel the need to change it. Well.. I have to say I don't know how many people knew about Japan in the 1860s anyway...
From the japanese pov (imho), they know from the different reading styles of kanji that words with a close meaning can sound totally different. Furthermore, no non-japanese (all those babaric gaijin ;)) is expected to speak japanese. The country was very isolated for a long time and the people know that other people are just different.
However, more people will know that the japanese name for Japan is Nippon. It will be the same as with Greece. Many germans know the greek name is Hellas, but still we call it Griechenland.

There a some things that could change this and make nippon the more common word. One could be a japanese writer who publishes in germany about japan. Or a german speaking japanese telling about his experiences with the japanese in a certain romanticized view and calling them something else. Or many japanese students at german universities. They could change very much, with the growing racism in fraternities.

I could see the official name in government documents, postal addresses ect. to be Kaiserreich Nippon.
 
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Beer

Banned
Hi!

A new chapter. Have fun and keep the comments coming please!:cool:

5. A Crisis, new faces and the axe in the Cherry tree forest


"Prussia was lucky that no one caught on how serious the internal crisis in 1861 was. The great return of the Eulenburg expedition covered the deep divide in the Landtag, still even deepened it. That an army and now even a navy reform were needed was clear to everybody, but the fight for power between conservatives and liberals paralysed all. - My old reputation did not help me. My first cabinet was full of people I took because they were available, not for their potential. Actually the number of ministers knowing what they were doing, could be counted with the fingers of one hand.
I admit freely that back then I had more in common with the conservatives, but if I wanted to make the best out of the foreign political windfall, I needed the liberals. That nearly became a disaster, because they did not trust me at first."
Otto von Bismarck, Chancellor of Germany

"The American Civil War hit us hard. A very important market nearly dried up overnight. When these polite yellowish fellows came into my factory and I talked with them, I knew my prayers had been heard.
Japan needed a lot and more importantly, a lot of what we could produce: Railway wheels, tracks, cannons, ... It cost a fortune to charter a ship for the first trade convoy to Japan, but the end justified the means. Not only did we start to sell well in Japan, but the trade with the East fired on the development in Germany too. I knew that we would grow big, but that we became the biggest steel corporation in the world was only possible due to Japan being in the Zollverein"
Alfred Krupp, industry magnate

"There are things worse than to cooperate with a group you despise. It is to recognise that people you thought were loyal to your course, were in it only to become the rulers themselves.- And to see them change allegiance to top it off."
Tenno Komei, 121st Tenno of Japan

"The most frightening moment in my life was understanding that I suddenly had more in common with my political enemy than most of my old allies."
Shogun Iemochi, during the first phase of the end of the old Shogunate

Excerpt form the periodical "Was war wichtig (What had been important) 1861"

Prussia - her external reputation was polished up, but the internal crisis was sapping strength. The treaties made in East Asia helped a lot in foreign matters, but at home the situation had become even more complicated. The army reform had already blocked everything, now the navy needed to be reformed as well due to the new circumstances.
Most historians are sure that the government could have held out longer if the East Asia expedition had returned later, but now this return hastened the developments. In May, Karl Anton von Hohenzollern resigned as prime minister and the crisis became state-threatening. Government and legislative stalemated, it was minister Albrecht von Roon, who made a desperate gambit to give the conservatives the needed power to regain the steering in Prussia.
He recalled Otto von Bismarck to Berlin and in a night and fog action Bismarck became the new prime minister of Prussia.
The progressives in Prussia were less than amused. The later Chancellor had a reputation as an arc-conservative and so no liberals wanted to serve under him. Bismarck was forced to take in ministers he did not like one bit and considered useless.
Bismarck was close to the conservatives points of view, but his uncanny talent for foreign policy told him what a boon the successful East Asia expedition was. To use that to the fullest, Prussia had to get manoeuvrable again. Therefore he needed the liberals, but that was easier said than done.

Most progressives in Prussia mistrusted the new man at the helm, so Bismarck began to, had to reach out to them. His first speech in that direction was a disaster. He came across as exactly what the liberals feared. His second speech, the famous "Eisen, Blut und Fernhandel"-speech, seemed destined to turn out that way again. It was the last part Bismarck had inserted rather late, which finally gave him a connection to the progressives.
The Prince had talked in length about the chances of the treaty with Japan, about trade, patriotism, the need for Prussia to be united in itself, a united Germany, which was needed sooner than later, industry and a lot more points. While not fully convinced of Bismarck´s intentions, the liberals saw the chance to further their course in Prussia, if, well, if they helped Bismarck. This led to a schism in the liberals.
Many thought that was one thing the government had hoped for, but today we knew it was a development which by that time had already begun, if quietly. The newly formed "Nationalliberalen" (National Liberals) would become a cornerstone of Bismarck´s powerbase for decades to come.
His first risk taking had paid off. During the summer Bismarck could remove a lot of ministers and put better qualified personal from the progressives in. While he stayed defence minister, Roon was mildly shocked by Bismarck´s turn. By the time the first Japan convoy left the german ports, a now firmer in the saddle sitting prime minister led the official good bye celebrations.
For the enemies of Prussia a big chance had finally gone by unused.

Edo, Japan, summer 1861

The two man sitting in one room of the Shogun´s residence playing a game of Go, conversing about the situation in Japan, disliked each with quite a passion. It was doubtful if they would ever see the other really neutral, not to speak of friendly.
But the circumstances left them no choice. The upper echelons of Japan, the people in charge, had begun to fully take sides ever faster the more about the potential changes came to light. Simply put, after a handful of months the Tenno and the Shogun had to admit that only together would they have a majority of the leaders on their side.
The shock of losing support once considered steadfast was not confined to the Tenno alone. Shogun Iemochi, had seen the need for some reform too, he was equally shocked how strong the old power establishment was. But if Japan did nothing, sticking the head in the sand, like many on the side of Matsusaida preferred, Japan would soon be lost.
This duty to Japan, to better her position, was the main glue keeping two sides together which under different circumstances would happily try to undermine the other.

The biggest irony and on this even the so dissimilar leaders conformed, was that the defenders of the hardline bakufu now tried for outside help as well. Naturally this was not advertised, that the champions of a gaijin-free Nippon would make common cause with them, but there were reports that they stretched out feelers to the French.

The Clans and groups loyal to either the Tenno or the Shogun got their help from the provisory "german embassy". That would change, when further ships from Europe arrived, but until then the 6 people from various german states in one of the rededicated guest houses of Castle Edo were ad hoc, but de facto ambassadors and advisors.

It was not easy for the "Longnoses". The culture was different, in many things very much so and while the progressives among the Japanese were very inquisitive, the anti-foreigner factions in Japan showed subtle and less subtle harassment.
For the Europeans it was not only clear that their own behaviour had to be impeccable as much as the culture shock allowed, since they were the face of Germany, but that they had to help the progressives in Japan. Not only for the best of Japan, but for the best for the german states as well.
Foreigners had a mostly bad reputation in Japan for the unfair treaties and methods they had used to force Japan to sign them. The german states had been an exception on that, so if the Tenno and the Shogun won the inevitable confrontation with the hardliner Bakufu side, the german states would be the uncontested preferred type of gaijin in Japan.

Correctly seeing their duty not only in being the envoys they were, but in curtailing the activities of the competitors, the small group started various activities. The unknown Herr Krüger (the documents with his given name on it were destroyed during the Kanto earthquake) busied himself with his main thing, building up the japanese Zollverein dependence, but he also gave lessons in modern bookkeeping and economic theory, german type.
The leader of the german delegation was often with the Tenno and the Shogun, using his knowledge of law and state theory to give ideas how Japan could modernize without losing her "soul". Having brainstormed often with Carl Theodor Welcker, Eduard von Simson and Georg Waitz surely helped in that.
If it was correct that the opposition in Japan was in contact with the french envoys, he hoped that a full "real" group of envoys and advisors would soon come from Germany. Little did he know that while a merchant fleet from all Zollverein states, filled with ambassadors and advisors as well, had started the voyage to Japan, he would ultimately stay a further five years in Edo. His book on the conflict between reactionaries and progressives during the early Dakyou Era would become a bestseller.
 
What does Germany know about Arctic sailing techniques? If they had even a tiny knowledge of that, can the amount of time it will take for the Germans to sail into Japan be drastically shortened?
 

katchen

Banned
I think some in the Deutsch Merchantmarine or Deutschkriegsmarine have figured out a few things.
1. The same techniques and designs that can keep ships traveling in the Baltic in the Winter might keep them traveling in the Arctic during the Summer. It is possible for a screw propeller to power a ship with a rounded hull onto ice which will collapse under the ship's weight.Usually. And with a rounded hull, the ship won't be caught by the ice and crushed.So the ship must be specially buillt.
2. Late summer is when the ice will have melted the most.
3. icebreaking requires lots of steam and lots of coal or wood. which must be brought with.
4. Russia and especially Great Britain will have a cow if they find out you've sent an expedition to the Northeast Passage and a herd of cows if they find out you've actually made it through to the Bering Strait.
 

Deimos

Banned
Aonther way loanwords could be established is popular culture. It would be very probable to assume a "Japan craze" in Germany with some words becoming fashionable but disappearing as the fad is dying down.
Maybe even a German equivalent to Gilbert and Sullivan when it comes to using (supposedly) Japanese things.

With Germany's interest turned to the Far East I could easily see, for example Karl May could use it as setting for one of his novels and flavouring the speech of Japanese characters with Japanese words.


The excerpt from the periodical shows that the split between the liberals is occuring several years earlier. I think that, along with the different requirements due to the POD and the different domestic situation will change the way Germany is governed, i.e. its longterm focus and political goals and the mindset of the population.
Still, I think a lot of "members" of the Free Conservative Party would support Bismarck as long as the National Liberal Party does not challenge too many old privileges.


What does Germany know about Arctic sailing techniques? If they had even a tiny knowledge of that, can the amount of time it will take for the Germans to sail into Japan be drastically shortened?

Using the Northern Sea Route is rougly 7000 nm shorter than going through the Suez Canal but I have my doubts this would be useful. The route was only successfully sailed first in 1878/1879 and even then the ships had to wait several months because they were frozen in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Erik_Nordenski%C3%B6ld#Settling_in_Stockholm.2C_and_Arctic_exploration

It would be uneconomical for the 19th century to use this sealane. There are also different reasons I will list below.
WW1 tech could probably do a convoy and make an intersting narrative but it would still be risky. With WW2 tech it might be done regularly.

[[...]
1. The same techniques and designs that can keep ships traveling in the Baltic in the Winter might keep them traveling in the Arctic during the Summer. It is possible for a screw propeller to power a ship with a rounded hull onto ice which will collapse under the ship's weight.Usually. And with a rounded hull, the ship won't be caught by the ice and crushed.So the ship must be specially buillt.
2. Late summer is when the ice will have melted the most.
3. icebreaking requires lots of steam and lots of coal or wood. which must be brought with.
4. Russia and especially Great Britain will have a cow if they find out you've sent an expedition to the Northeast Passage and a herd of cows if they find out you've actually made it through to the Bering Strait.

1st Problem: Specifically built ships need maintenance during the whole year but are only usable during a very specific timeframe. Therefore, I fear they would be uneconomical.
2nd Problem: The Route is only ice-free during a very specific period and not good for doing merchant trips all-year.
3rd Problem: The energy problem you mention either results in more suppy ships (i.e. more expeditures) or sponsoring Russian harbours that offer these services.
4th Problem: Resulting from above, things like an earlier Murmansk would cause much fits for the British (Not that I would not like to see that. :rolleyes:).
5th Problem: A lot of trade in the 19th century was still done via wooden sailing ships and I am quite sure that they are not keen on using this route even in summer.
6th Problem: Bismarck might want to placate Austria by doing a portion of the trade through their Adriatic ports.


Please note that I do not think the Germans would not try to find and use the Northern Sea Route but I think it would be unwise to believe it would hold significant value with the tech levels and possible foreign pressure in the current ATL.
 
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Beer

Banned
Hi!

@All
Thank you for the continuing support!

To some of the questions, ideas:
Even OTL there was a "Japan craze" in Germany in the late 19th century. In ATL this will be logically more pronounced. I actually think that under the circumstances at least in the official government documents it will be, as Raven meant, Kaiserreich Nippon.
If in colloquial speech Nippon will push out Japan, depends on several other factors, wich I still simulate through.

Despite several hefty reservation rights for specific groups, Bismarck OTL modelled a lot of the Second Empire on the ideas of the progressives. As e.g. Ernst Engelberg wrote, Bismrack was one of the first politicians to recognise that a new Era was beginning.

In ATL, this trend will be strengthened, so some of the special rights will go down. The biggest impact will be on the goals and mindset of government and population.
The "japanese infusion" will bring changes.

One thing is naturally that Germany will become "ocean-going" more and earlier. A higher proportion of the merchant ships will be German than OTL. But a battleship race along the lines of OTL is less probable, since Germany´s problems will be different. No matter who is in charge by that time, it is totally clear that Germany must keep the sea lanes to her most important non-european partner open. Which means truckloads of Cruisers and corvettes are needed.

The polar route is an idea, but not in the 19th century. Even later it should be reserved for special operations.
What will be far more probable is that Germany will invest more in Zeppelins and other air vehicles.
 
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katchen

Banned
Aonther way loanwords could be established is popular culture. It would be very probable to assume a "Japan craze" in Germany with some words becoming fashionable but disappearing as the fad is dying down.
Maybe even a German equivalent to Gilbert and Sullivan when it comes to using (supposedly) Japanese things.

With Germany's interest turned to the Far East I could easily see, for example Karl May could use it as setting for one of his novels and flavouring the speech of Japanese characters with Japanese words.


The excerpt from the periodical shows that the split between the liberals is occuring several years earlier. I think that, along with the different requirements due to the POD and the different domestic situation will change the way Germany is governed, i.e. its longterm focus and political goals and the mindset of the population.
Still, I think a lot of "members" of the Free Conservative Party would support Bismarck as long as the National Liberal Party does not challenge too many old privileges.




Using the Northern Sea Route is rougly 7000 nm shorter than going through the Suez Canal but I have my doubts this would be useful. The route was only successfully sailed first in 1878/1879 and even then the ships had to wait several months because they were frozen in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Erik_Nordenskiöld#Settling_in_Stockholm.2C_and_Arctic_exploration

It would be uneconomical for the 19th century to use this sealane. There are also different reasons I will list below.
WW1 tech could probably do a convoy and make an intersting narrative but it would still be risky. With WW2 tech it might be done regularly.



1st Problem: Specifically built ships need maintenance during the whole year but are only usable during a very specific timeframe. Therefore, I fear they would be uneconomical.
2nd Problem: The Route is only ice-free during a very specific period and not good for doing merchant trips all-year.
3rd Problem: The energy problem you mention either results in more suppy ships (i.e. more expeditures) or sponsoring Russian harbours that offer these services.
4th Problem: Resulting from above, things like an earlier Murmansk would cause much fits for the British (Not that I would not like to see that. :rolleyes:).
5th Problem: A lot of trade in the 19th century was still done via wooden sailing ships and I am quite sure that they are not keen on using this route even in summer.
6th Problem: Bismarck might want to placate Austria by doing a portion of the trade through their Adriatic ports.


Please note that I do not think the Germans would not try to find and use the Northern Sea Route but I think it would be unwise to believe it would hold significant value with the tech levels and possible foreign pressure in the current ATL.
Just because the Northern Sea Route is not feasible in it's entirety as a route to Japan with mid 19th Century technology does not mean that the Northern Sea Route cannot open up the mouths of the Ob and Yensei Rivers. Both of those rivers are huge, navigable by oceean going steamers as far up as Tomsk on the Ob and at least Yenseisk on the Yensei. Which means that rail for a railroad across Siberia can be transported to and up those river systems and a railroad across Siberia built in both directions from the Ob, Yensei Irtysh and Tobol Rivers.:cool:
It also means that in the event of war, those rivers (and on the other side of Cape Chelyushkin, which remains chronically blocked with ice year round, the Lena River) are vulnerable to gunboat flotillas from a foreign enemy which could steam up these rivers and cut Siberia off from the rest of Russia.:eek:
 

RavenMM

Banned
could you please elaborate on the inner german politic and the Blut, Eisen und Fernhandel speech? I don't understand why Karl Anton von Hohenzollern has to retreat one year earlier in TTL when OTL the budget for 1861 was approved. The liberals should be very happy with new trading opportunities so how does it deepen the conservative - liberal split? I could even see the liberals losing some interest in seeing more non-noble army officers if they can take command in the merchant marine.
And could you give an excerpt from bismarcks speech? I can't really see him dismissing talking and voting when prussia just scored big points with the other german states through a trading treaty which was not forced upon japan. HOw does he get the liberals support?
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

Thanks again for your interest!

@Caoster
The Corvettes are rather short-ranged that is fully correct. But for the security of the supply stations they are really helpful.

@MarshalB
No, airplanes will someday be the most important air vehicles. It is just that Germany has the incentive to research tech for Zeppelins like L70 or the "Graf Zeppelin" earlier than OTL.

@katchen
Your idea for the polar route and the siberian rivers I find really great. I might write an adventure or so about that for "Eisen, Blut...", but this "northern road" is a subject worthy of it´s own ATL.

@Raven
The budget was through, yes, but the kicker OTL and ATL was the army reform, which was totally stalemated due to political powerplays by both main sides. Now ATL the really successful East Asia trip made a navy reform equally needed, because the duties of the naval forces suddenly expanded big time. KA von Hohenzollern knew that it was now totally round the bend and so he stepped back earlier. (OTL he did it later because he had hoped to solve the army reform problem)
The new treaty did not deepen the rift between Conservatives-Progressives generally, but just in the military reforms, where they were already head against head, which was quite critical.

Maybe I write an excerpt if I get the time for it. I used the "Eisen und Blut" speech to show that ATL Bismarck is rather close to OTL Bismarck. IN OTL he simply overlooked, how his speech would sound to the liberals.
ATL he uses Eisen und Blut in a different context. As you said, with the big points Prussia got from the expedition, he could use the elements of the speech differently. ATL Bismarck never had the need or thought he would need to show an "Iron front", so he never dismissed talking or such.
The Eisen he used to show that a nation at that time will only get strong with the products of it: Steel, Railways, Ships,...
And Blut, that success will not come without sacrifice if needed, something as a little honour to the dead of the SMS Frauenlob. THe Fernhandel part was what brought the support fully on his side. The possibilities of trade was a bread and butter to the liberals.
 

Deimos

Banned
Just because the Northern Sea Route is not feasible in it's entirety as a route to Japan with mid 19th Century technology does not mean that the Northern Sea Route cannot open up the mouths of the Ob and Yensei Rivers. Both of those rivers are huge, navigable by oceean going steamers as far up as Tomsk on the Ob and at least Yenseisk on the Yensei. Which means that rail for a railroad across Siberia can be transported to and up those river systems and a railroad across Siberia built in both directions from the Ob, Yensei Irtysh and Tobol Rivers.:cool:
It also means that in the event of war, those rivers (and on the other side of Cape Chelyushkin, which remains chronically blocked with ice year round, the Lena River) are vulnerable to gunboat flotillas from a foreign enemy which could steam up these rivers and cut Siberia off from the rest of Russia.:eek:

I did not exclude using the Northen Sea Route for military purposes and you are right I had not thought about the rivers. I think it would make a great naval timeline for a power that tries to harm Russia.

However, I seriously doubt it would be effective to hide the preparations and equipment for sailing down these rivers, except for a commando raid.
Additionally, it would cost some time to even get to the mouth of the rivers and all that can be done is some raiding, destroying parts of the Transsiberian Railroad and hindering enemy troop movements. The forces involved and the material might be of better use elsewhere.
Still I cannot get myself to declare such an endeavour uncool. Great Idea! :cool:


If the Prussian Landtag is willing to enlargen the navy do we get to see some naval action in the war of 1864 or its equivalent? I very much doubt the navy would grow so fast that the Danes can be beaten but on the other hand that the Danes capturing/sinking many new German merchantmen makes the politicians cry for long-range (i.e. cruiser) protection of German commercial interests.
 
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