Anti-Ottomanism?


The deportation was certainly pretty messed up in my opinion.

It was, but nobody seems to think it was messed up that the Armenians tried to do the same thing. And in fact totally succeeded in exterminating the Muslims of Armenia, which had accounted for almost half the population before the war.
 
Well that was a passive-aggressive response if ever I saw one. I meant no ill by my post, to me denying something of that sort is nonsensical, but I also believe that as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, everyone is free to believe whatever they want to believe. You believe it didn't occur, I believe it did, and that's okay. Just differences of opinion and belief.

This is a frequent line of argument. Whenever anyone doubts the official Armenian line, they are accused of denialism. What do you think happened, and based on what evidence? Do you think Genocide is a crime of intent? If so, can you find any evidence that the Ottomans intended a human catastrophe? There isn't any. The aim was to relocate a population that was threatening the existence of the empire out of the combat zone.

The Armenians weren't sitting around in their villages raising sheep, they were heavily armed and had taken the important city of Van, exterminated the Muslim population there, and handed the city over to the Russian army. The Armenian population didn't deserve collective punishment, but they were not passive innocents, and have not been asked to answer for their horrific crimes in the same period, nor have the Russians, against both the Muslims and the Armenians. Nor is anyone even aware that Armenian totally exterminated its Azeri and Kurdish population.

If Don Grey is curt, it's because there is no discussion on this site remotely dealing with the Ottomans or Turks that doesn't descend into an endless rant about the Armenian Genocide by people who don't know anything about it but are sure that it happened exactly how the Armenians said it happened.
 
I will go as far as saying that militarily, the British Army and especially the Royal Navy could have defeated almost any power on earth at their zenith. However, the political cost would have been too great. For example, they might have bested France, Prussia/Germany or China, but the amount of men they would lose and the amount of time it would take would be very damaging politically and may even cause revolts at home.

Also, it's unlikely the British Empire and any of the above powers would have gone 1 on 1 for any length of time. Look at the First World War. The whole thing about the Victorian period was the "Great Game" and the balance of power that it entailed. If Britain was curbstomping someone major, you can guarantee that another power, even if it wasn't exactly friends with the nation being curbstomped, would step in to preserve the balance of power.

But that's neither here nor there in this thread, just wanted to respond to that comment :)

I really don't see Britain besting France, Germany, A-H, or Russia on land one-on-one. Not even the Ottomans saw them as a particularly serious threat in that regard. At sea though, they were unquestionably supreme, if a bit vulnerable in the 80s and 90s until the Majestics were available.
 
I never accused anyone of denialism. I asked if that was what he was saying, and he agreed. Where did I point a finger and say "Evil genocide denier!"?

I don't mindlessly believe the Armenian point of view, nor do I mindlessly believe the Ottoman one. The truth is somewhere in between. You have admitted yourself that they did not deserve the collective punishment they received. Regardless to what a militant section of their population may have done, two wrongs do not make a right.

I won't make the comparisons I want to make, else this would just spiral into a place neither of us want it to go. I am not sure what your slant on it is, but there is mine. Can we agree to disagree?

As for Britain vs another power on land, depends on the country. For example, Britain could certainly squeese any country with a coastline into a tenuous situation politically, which would likely win a war without a decisive military breakthrough. So, you are right in that regard, the army wouldn't win alone, but combined they could certainly force a political capitulation. If it was a pure military deathmatch, the whole Russian Army vs the whole British Army, then sure, the redcoats are in trouble.

I guess what I am saying is that while Britain could force a resolution in almost any conflict, but in doing so might have major political and social issues if it did so.
 

Eurofed

Banned
And my question to you, given that there were HREGN states that were Ecclesiastic policies and to do this would require defeating the Church, which Early Modern sovereigns with real armies couldn't do, and no Medieval leader ever did, is how this fantastically improbable thing happens in mere centuries. You'd need a lot longer than that or a lot smaller HREGN. One blending Italy, Germany, and a shitload of ecclesiastic states ain't gonna do it.

You keep projecting Early Modern HRE on the Hohenstaufen one, which was different, and the political fragmentation had not gotten so far (and ITTL, never will, in the lack of things like the Great Interregnum). There were no "states", ecclesiastic or secular, back then, just clergy nobles, secular nobles, and city-states, all of which may be particularist.

Too, the HREGN rejected the legitimacy of the Byzantines, so why is it that they want them stronger ITTL, given this is a post-Schism POD, and we all know how tolerant Medievals were of schismatics. :rolleyes:

The Papacy loses the power struggle with the Emperor, it is weakened, the secular monarchs of Western Europe gang up on it (they share a common interest to affirm their authority on their national churches, think of the troubles English and French kings had with Popes), the Curia is dewanked and most authority seized by national bishops under the watchful eye of the local monarch, Western Church turns much like the Eastern one, the real point of contention about the Schism is removed (there were little true theological points of dissent, the issue was the Pope's claims of power), East-West reconciliation is done by ecumenic council as it was almost done in the 15th century.

England, which when a SUPERPOWER did not like the concept of a European hegemon adopts a completely different kind of politics when vulnerable to invasion at that time and likely in the middle of a civil war assuming its politics in the aftermath of the fall of the Angevin Empire is remotely like OTL decides to welcome a power tempted to conquer it (after all, if they can rule something the size of OTL HREGN, why not add England if it goes all Civil War infighting?).

Please stop projecting 18th-19th century British obsession for the balance of power on their 14th-15th century ancestors. It is so anachronistic that it is painful (funny for one that blames of implausibility for accelerating the fulfillment of a national unification movement by a generation). Anyway, they are getting most of France from this bargain, which is what they really cared about, at the time. England had sufficient respite from its domestic troubles in the 14th-15th century to fight the Hundred Years' War. It can be safely assumed it can muster the energies to fight a shorter, easier version of the same conflict thanks to the Eng-HRE alliance.

All the same Iberia, which actually *was* united IOTL stays united because....the other power in Europe is united? By this logic the whole Sengoku period should never have happened.

There is no great AI in the sky, ensuring that every power has to have a mandatory minimum amount of misfortune, no matter the circumstances, in any TL.

And because of fear of something like a Decembrist revolt, which actually happened and soured his brother on liberalism for good.

Except liberal reforms butterfly away stuff like a Decembrist revolt, which happened because Russia did not go liberal.

And if the king is a mad one and his brother is the OTL Wilhelm I, that dog don't hunt.

Individual personalities are not difficult to change, with a PoD decades before. That Prussian scion is changed to have a romantic loyalty to the cause of German unity.

And with Cuba and parts of South America it's going to feel this way why?

Dixie gets Cuba, northeastern Mexico, Puerto Rico, and Guyana. The free section gets Canada, Gran Colombia, and Peru-Bolivia. Rest of Mexico is still at the territorial stage, like the West. Of course, in both cases the big stuff is split in several states, and butterflies make for a different number and shapes of OTL states.

Under the 3/5 clause it controlled Congress up to the 1850s.

And as soon as the Mid West started to swing with the Northeast in the '50s because of socio-economic issues, the Dixie political hegemony was dead. The 3/5 clausle didn't cut it anymore in the face of the demographic growth of the free section. Pretty much the same happens ITTL, with industrialization and the slavery issue making Mid West, Canada, and the Hispanic states close ranks with the Northeast. Dixie is with its back to the wall, free-soil settlers are winning the power struggle with slave-owning ones in the West and settled Mexico won't accept slavery, which means any new states are going to be free ones (there are several free territories that are petitioning for statehood), Dixie feels and reacts like a cornered animal.

Their problems weren't industrialization IOTL, they had some very brave and hard-fighting soldiers. Their problems came from bunglers like Cadorna and Mussolini.

Prussian-model Italian army, remember ? ;)

Pragmatic in the sense that he leads a defiantly reactionary empire and flips the bird at the liberals in the "Blood and Iron" speech. Yeah.....no.

So reactionary that it invented the world's first welfare state. There seems to be a skewed sense of what "reactionary" truly means, around here. The Papal State was a reactionary autocracy. The Kaiserreich was a conservative-liberal constitutional monarchy.

The British Empire vastly economically outweighed the USA in 1860, and with a larger Confederacy able to throw up much more manpower.

Merrily ignoring the fact that the Union is still going to have an even better manpower ratio to the CSA than OTL, and the British Empire still has the little problem of fighting the Triple Alliance equivalent plus Russia at the same time. At one point, the British do try to pump out India for soldiers, and it makes the subcontinent explode on their face.

Uh.........so Thomas Jefferson disappeared ITTL? The Adamses learned how to attract flies with sugar instead of Vinegar?

Close to. Washington comes out of retirement to persuade the Congress and give up on the whole Alien and Sediction Acts idea. Because of this, and because they score a victory in the Quasi-War turned declared Franco-American War, the Federalists stay popular throughout the 1800s. Jefferson grabs one term in the decade because of a temporary Federalist split and controversy about the diplomatic recognition of Haiti, bungles his term because of the Embargo Act foolishness (the Louisiana Purchase was done before his ATL term), and retires as an unpopular president, his legacy intact as a revolutionary leader but tarnished as a statesman. The Federalists stay the most popular and influential party, many Jeffersonian ideas about limited government get discredited, while a good deal of the Hamiltonian program eventually becomes a bipartisan legacy.

It's not Doubting Thomas to ask how the Metternichian faction suddenly ups and disappears after reactionaries *defeat* Napoleon.

Part of the reason may be because Metternich turned out an enemy of Russia and Prussia ?

And I disagree with 67th Tigers' underestimation of the USA and its best generals and his Confederate-wanks but there is no way the USA in the middle of a civil war across a region the size of Russia can take on Superpower-Britain.

The heck with the bloody superpower. It's fighting all the other European great powers but France.
 
Last edited:
It was, but nobody seems to think it was messed up that the Armenians tried to do the same thing. And in fact totally succeeded in exterminating the Muslims of Armenia, which had accounted for almost half the population before the war.

Of course it is, why wouldn't it be? I recall Muslims being 48 percent on the Genocide but semantics, right?
 
I never accused anyone of denialism. I asked if that was what he was saying, and he agreed. Where did I point a finger and say "Evil genocide denier!"?

I don't mindlessly believe the Armenian point of view, nor do I mindlessly believe the Ottoman one. The truth is somewhere in between. You have admitted yourself that they did not deserve the collective punishment they received. Regardless to what a militant section of their population may have done, two wrongs do not make a right.

I won't make the comparisons I want to make, else this would just spiral into a place neither of us want it to go. I am not sure what your slant on it is, but there is mine. Can we agree to disagree?

I'm not sure we're disagreeing at this point. Ottomans certainly did something wrong, just that the answer is not intentional massacre of Armenian civilians.
 
I never accused anyone of denialism. I asked if that was what he was saying, and he agreed. Where did I point a finger and say "Evil genocide denier!"?

I don't mindlessly believe the Armenian point of view, nor do I mindlessly believe the Ottoman one. The truth is somewhere in between. You have admitted yourself that they did not deserve the collective punishment they received. Regardless to what a militant section of their population may have done, two wrongs do not make a right.

Of course two wrongs don't make a right. But one wrong doesn't excuse another one, which is where the Armenians have taken it. Simple question: Were you even aware that a huge number of Turks were killed in ethnic cleansing in the same time and place? Have you ever heard mention that Armenia was nearly half Muslim at the beginning of WWI and was 0% Muslim after? Are you aware that Armenia is currently in occupation of a large chunk of Azerbaijan after having thrown no less than a million Azeris out of their homes? That is the issue of frustration. The Armenians have successfully used what happened to them as a smokescreen to cover their own atrocities, and while the international community is determined to punish Turkey for events of 100 years ago under a totally different state, Armenia is not held accountable for current atrocity.

I won't make the comparisons I want to make, else this would just spiral into a place neither of us want it to go. I am not sure what your slant on it is, but there is mine. Can we agree to disagree?

Make whatever comparisons you want to make, I'm sure I've heard much worse. The Armenian position is that 1.5-2M Armenians, innocent and loyal citizens, were swooped upon by a genocidal regime which had decided to exterminate them in a fit of Turkish nationalism ala the Holocaust.

The official Turkish position is that many people unfortunately died on both sides in a civil war that had an ethno-religious element to it. I haven't seen an "official" number of casualties, but a state-puppet "researcher" came up with something like 35,000 (directly) killed, and didn't mention how many actually died of disease or starvation.

The truth is in between, as both these positions are bullshit.

About 600,000 Armenians died, about half as a result of the Ottoman government's relocation policy, and the other half as refugees in the Russian Caucasus. The government's aim - and there are literally tens of thousands of extant documents to support this - was to move a rebellious population out of the war zone. There was not, nor has there ever been uncovered one single bit of documentary evidence, and this after four years of British occupation of Istanbul during which the entirety of the state archives were scoured for it, that anyone had any genocidal intent.

The government was obviously aware atrocities were being committed and hardship being suffered evidenced by its repeated orders to local commanders and officials to prevent this, but the welfare of the Armenians was obviously not a high priority for anyone, nor is relocating a whole population excusable on any level, and in the end, any government is responsible for the fate of its subjects, rebellious or not.

The discrepancy in numbers is due to inflation of the starting total. The Armenian patriarchate said there were 2.8M Armenians, whereas in reality there were 1.5M. 900,000 survived, so 2.8M - .9M = +/- 2M dead. 1.5M - .9M = .6M dead. Obviously 40% casualties is a human catastrophe, but it's also the death rate for Muslims in the area, and even troops in transit suffered 25%. But it's not quite as clear-cut as a number like 70%.

The Turkish claim of "civil war" is bull. There was certainly a rebellion, but it's not civil war when one side picks up the other and dumps them someone else.

Anyway, this is not my "slant", it's the position held nearly unanimously by Middle East history scholars.

As for Britain vs another power on land, depends on the country. For example, Britain could certainly squeese any country with a coastline into a tenuous situation politically, which would likely win a war without a decisive military breakthrough. So, you are right in that regard, the army wouldn't win alone, but combined they could certainly force a political capitulation. If it was a pure military deathmatch, the whole Russian Army vs the whole British Army, then sure, the redcoats are in trouble.

I guess what I am saying is that while Britain could force a resolution in almost any conflict, but in doing so might have major political and social issues if it did so.

I suppose that's a reasonable assessment. But Britain always ran the danger of provoking a coalition against her, which falls under your "major political issues" category. For example, the presence of the French Med fleet was an excellent "outer layer of defense" for the Dardanelles. The Admiralty had no confidence that an attack there would succeed, and was very doubtful that even if it did that the fleet would be in any shape to face the French, and in any case would be bottled up in the East Med, isolated from the Channel/Home Fleet.
 
I'm not sure we're disagreeing at this point. Ottomans certainly did something wrong, just that the answer is not intentional massacre of Armenian civilians.

People did intentionally massacre Armenian civilians, and there are Ottoman officials and commanders complicit in this, but not as a result of the policy of the Ottoman government. For example, some military commanders sold Armenian deportees under their protection to the Kurds, or abandoned them to their own devices. And as in any ethnic conflict, there were people who took advantage of the situation to settle old scores or profit from human misery.
 
People did intentionally massacre Armenian civilians, and there are Ottoman officials and commanders complicit in this, but not as a result of the policy of the Ottoman government. For example, some military commanders sold Armenian deportees under their protection to the Kurds, or abandoned them to their own devices. And as in any ethnic conflict, there were people who took advantage of the situation to settle old scores or profit from human misery.

Indeed, when I said "Ottomans" I mean the Ottoman government. And there were surely Ottoman officials who, if were not sympathetic to the counter-massacre of Armenians by the Kurds, made profit out of it.
 
And apparently, problem of anti-Ottomanism isn't only about the aware adherers, but also about its large influence on those who just don't have any direct or indirect access to the proper sources on Ottoman history.

Here was my conversation with an Ottomanphile about "Sickman of Europe" thing in kaskus, in rough translation :
Me : Seeing people who take misconception already denied officially by Ottoman historians such as "Sickman of Europe" rhetorics for granted always made my head hurts so bad !! :mad:
That Ottomanphile : We've already discussed about "Sickman of Europe", and of all source I've read, only Shaw who doesn't use this.
Me : The definition of "Sickman of Europe" that is always being used by the users has been "the state who cannot recover by itself" and it is demonstrably false.
That Ottomanphile : As far as I know, both orientalists and Islamic sources state that the later phase of Ottoman history was period of decline. Weak military that couldn't even beaten the Greeks, massive debts, economic decline, the rise of nationalism in pretty much every sancak, etc. Shaw who held more positive view on Ottoman Empire compared to the orientalist also hasn't clearly refute that. How is that "demonstrably false" ?
This is just sad..... :(
 
I said Turkish, not Ottoman. Avicenna was Persian in culture but was Turkish.

This is like saying I'm American in culture, but Irish. I know a lot of people on this very board would get rather snippy with any claims to be Irish from a 4th or 5th generation American or even a 2nd generation one, so I don't see why a Turk of Persian culture should be treated any differently (ie., he should be called Persian, not Turkish).

And I realize this means that, by your own argument, the Greeks, Bulgarians, etc. prior to becoming independent from the Ottoman Empire were actually Turks. Since I am not Greek, Bulgarian, etc., I don't really care.
 
This is like saying I'm American in culture, but Irish. I know a lot of people on this very board would get rather snippy with any claims to be Irish from a 4th or 5th generation American or even a 2nd generation one, so I don't see why a Turk of Persian culture should be treated any differently (ie., he should be called Persian, not Turkish).

And I realize this means that, by your own argument, the Greeks, Bulgarians, etc. prior to becoming independent from the Ottoman Empire were actually Turks. Since I am not Greek, Bulgarian, etc., I don't really care.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Almost all Turks are Persian in culture. The Ottoman Empire was a Persianate state, and all Turks everywhere except maybe Yakuts and Tuvans are Persian in culture. "Persian" is a huge, ginormous concept, like "European". Afghans are Persian, as are half of Pakistanis, Central Asia, etc.

Very few people from Persian cultures are actually Persians. You can be both French and European culturally, just like you can be Turkish and still be Persian culturally. If Turkish is your native language, you're a Turk.
 
And apparently, problem of anti-Ottomanism isn't only about the aware adherers, but also about its large influence on those who just don't have any direct or indirect access to the proper sources on Ottoman history.

Here was my conversation with an Ottomanphile about "Sickman of Europe" thing in kaskus, in rough translation :
This is just sad..... :(

Wouldn't it be more accurate to state that the Greeks would have lost if Britain did not have people like Lord Byron and Russia wasn't obsessed with a warm water port? ;)
 
You keep projecting Early Modern HRE on the Hohenstaufen one, which was different, and the political fragmentation had not gotten so far (and ITTL, never will, in the lack of things like the Great Interregnum). There were no "states", ecclesiastic or secular, back then, just clergy nobles, secular nobles, and city-states, all of which may be particularist.

The thing is that this is a Medieval state we speak of. The Carolingians fractured due to Medieval traits, any super-HREGN will do the same. The medieval state structure did not lend itself readily to empire-building.

The Papacy loses the power struggle with the Emperor, it is weakened, the secular monarchs of Western Europe gang up on it (they share a common interest to affirm their authority on their national churches, think of the troubles English and French kings had with Popes), the Curia is dewanked and most authority seized by national bishops under the watchful eye of the local monarch, Western Church turns much like the Eastern one, the real point of contention about the Schism is removed (there were little true theological points of dissent, the issue was the Pope's claims of power), East-West reconciliation is done by ecumenic council as it was almost done in the 15th century.

So in Medieval times, when the Papacy was extremely respected (as opposed to post Western Schism when the Papacy's respect went downhill from there) European rulers in an era where a separate clerical caste is recognized as a positive good are all going to gang up on the Papal States? Did someone switch Medieval kings' minds with Bolsheviks?

Please stop projecting 18th-19th century British obsession for the balance of power on their 14th-15th century ancestors. It is so anachronistic that it is painful (funny for one that blames of implausibility for accelerating the fulfillment of a national unification movement by a generation). Anyway, they are getting most of France from this bargain, which is what they really cared about, at the time. England had sufficient respite from its domestic troubles in the 14th-15th century to fight the Hundred Years' War. It can be safely assumed it can muster the energies to fight a shorter, easier version of the same conflict thanks to the Eng-HRE alliance.

I didn't say the British alone here. If the HRE is getting extremely more powerful than everyone else, the feudal nobles will have a sudden fear that the Hohenstaufen Emperor will rob them of their privileges. You'd see a Giant Enemy Mine scenario to preserve privileges, not the Balance of Power.

There is no great AI in the sky, ensuring that every power has to have a mandatory minimum amount of misfortune, no matter the circumstances, in any TL.

True, look at Russia IOTL. The problem is that just because Power X is unified does not mean Power Y will form from two other divided kingdoms. If this were so, Metacom would have wiped out New England and in the best case scenario for British settlers in the New World they'dve had to start all over again.

Except liberal reforms butterfly away stuff like a Decembrist revolt, which happened because Russia did not go liberal.

There's a contradiction here. The Tsar we're talking of *did* make Liberal reforms, which led to an assassination attempt, hence he decided "fuck this shit, I wanna live." Are we assuming Russian "liberalism" in the ATL has no problem with autocracy? Because even Alexander's Great-Nephew, the most liberal Tsar *ever* never wanted to give up the autocracy.

Individual personalities are not difficult to change, with a PoD decades before. That Prussian scion is changed to have a romantic loyalty to the cause of German unity.

Butterfly effect IMHO doesn't work that way. You can make Hitler not a mass-murderous Jew-hater but you can't make him anachronistically not-a-hater-at-all, in an era where most people were.

Dixie gets Cuba, northeastern Mexico, Puerto Rico, and Guyana. The free section gets Canada, Gran Colombia, and Peru-Bolivia. Rest of Mexico is still at the territorial stage, like the West. Of course, in both cases the big stuff is split in several states, and butterflies make for a different number and shapes of OTL states.

Which in an obvious point you seem to keep missing is going to completely and utterly butterfly away anything resembling OTL US politics, and perpetuate antebellum politics for far longer given Free States have no reason to think slave states are going to fuck them over.

And as soon as the Mid West started to swing with the Northeast in the '50s because of socio-economic issues, the Dixie political hegemony was dead. The 3/5 clausle didn't cut it anymore in the face of the demographic growth of the free section. Pretty much the same happens ITTL, with industrialization and the slavery issue making Mid West, Canada, and the Hispanic states close ranks with the Northeast. Dixie is with its back to the wall, free-soil settlers are winning the power struggle with slave-owning ones in the West and settled Mexico won't accept slavery, which means any new states are going to be free ones (there are several free territories that are petitioning for statehood), Dixie feels and reacts like a cornered animal.

And all of this mattered because the fundamental premise of Antebellum US politics was an even division of the USA between Slave and Free States, which with the 3/5 clause meant slave states completely dominated US politics for most of the first 80 years of US history. No Missouri Compromise, it doesn't matter *that* much if there are more Yankees. Slavery in Cuba and large parts of Mexico? Yankee population growth also means less because there are more slaves and much of the territory Yankees have with Canada and Gran Colombia is not quite so easy to control, where Dixie had plenty of experience controlling unhappy, restive populations dissatisfied with the overall social system.

Prussian-model Italian army, remember ? ;)

The Prussia that defeated France or the one that almost got its ass handed to it by Russia and was saved by the untimely death of a Magnificent Bastard Tsarina?

So reactionary that it invented the world's first welfare state. There seems to be a skewed sense of what "reactionary" truly means, around here. The Papal State was a reactionary autocracy. The Kaiserreich was a conservative-liberal constitutional monarchy.

This distorts that the reason von Bismarck did that was to present the Socialists with a Catch-22, which is one reason he's a Magnificent Bastard but doesn't mean anything about the Kaiserreich or OvB.

Merrily ignoring the fact that the Union is still going to have an even better manpower ratio to the CSA than OTL, and the British Empire still has the little problem of fighting the Triple Alliance equivalent plus Russia at the same time. At one point, the British do try to pump out India for soldiers, and it makes the subcontinent explode on their face.

If manpower were everything, then McClellan should have taken Richmond in the Peninsular Campaign and Van Dorn should have won Pea Ridge. The Civil War was not won because the North simply had superior numbers. They had to use those numbers *effectively* and as the Axis-Soviet War shows it's very possible to make poor use of overwhelming numbers and for that to bite you in the ass later on.

Close to. Washington comes out of retirement to persuade the Congress and give up on the whole Alien and Sediction Acts idea. Because of this, and because they score a victory in the Quasi-War turned declared Franco-American War, the Federalists stay popular throughout the 1800s. Jefferson grabs one term in the decade because of a temporary Federalist split and controversy about the diplomatic recognition of Haiti, bungles his term because of the Embargo Act foolishness (the Louisiana Purchase was done before his ATL term), and retires as an unpopular president, his legacy intact as a revolutionary leader but tarnished as a statesman. The Federalists stay the most popular and influential party, many Jeffersonian ideas about limited government get discredited, while a good deal of the Hamiltonian program eventually becomes a bipartisan legacy.

If he came out of retirement to do that, why not simply run for a third term? In the late 18th and early 19th Century before Industrialism a lot of Hamiltonian ideas very much did *not* enjoy the approval of the people who made up the electoral college, as there was no popular vote until the 1830s, meaning the will of the US people mattered not one way or the other. This US elite must be a very different one from OTL, meaning you need colonial-era PODs for all this, which would easily be problematic where the Tsars are concerned as you may well butterfly Alexander I himself away.

Part of the reason may be because Metternich turned out an enemy of Russia and Prussia ?

So? Stalin was an enemy of Hitler, nobody adopted Stalinism in Europe except by force regardless.

The heck with the bloody superpower. It's fighting all the other European great powers but France.

And yet with the War of 1812 in a similar situation it still nearly kicked the USA's ass and the power differential is worse here because there's a gigantic civil war going on. It doesn't need to defeat the USA, just give the CSA a solution to its logistical problems and Northern long-term advantages go blooie.
 
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Almost all Turks are Persian in culture. The Ottoman Empire was a Persianate state, and all Turks everywhere except maybe Yakuts and Tuvans are Persian in culture. "Persian" is a huge, ginormous concept, like "European". Afghans are Persian, as are half of Pakistanis, Central Asia, etc.

Very few people from Persian cultures are actually Persians. You can be both French and European culturally, just like you can be Turkish and still be Persian culturally. If Turkish is your native language, you're a Turk.
If the Ottomans were Persianate, why were Ottoman mosques modelled off the Hagia Sophia (a Byzantine building) rather than being built Persian-style with iwans facing a courtyard? Is it a coincidence that architecturally there is an east-west split in the Islamic world, on roughly the same line that before Islam was the Roman-Persian frontier?
 
If the Ottomans were Persianate, why were Ottoman mosques modelled off the Hagia Sophia (a Byzantine building) rather than being built Persian-style with iwans facing a courtyard? Is it a coincidence that architecturally there is an east-west split in the Islamic world, on roughly the same line that before Islam was the Roman-Persian frontier?

Because of the same thing that made christian build cathedral in gothic style in western Europe, and more pre-renaissance in southern one?

You know, the sub-culture thing. Obviously the Ottomans are part of the persian civilisation but a civilization isn't a monolithic society, they have substrats, superstrats that modify some regions. For Turkey, it's Persian civilization with byzantine traits, with some others.
 
It might help if those arguing about the status of Armenians within the later years of the Ottoman Empire developed defenitions for terms like "genocide" on which all agree as a starting point to discuss the massacres in some cases of the aforementioned Armenian population.
 
It would be awfully nice if Eurofed (especially) and Snake (to a lesser extent) took their argument to somewhere else, perhaps PMs, since it has nothing to do with the Ottomans one way or another.
 
Disagree.
The urban youth of Turkey mostly seem pretty identical to normal European youth except for the occasional bit of religiousness popping up about pork. I can relate with them a bit more in fact; rock music seems bigger in Turkey than in much of the continent. :D

Well that actually makes them more American than European
 
Top