Anti-Ottomanism?
- Thread starter Orko
- Start date
Because in most ATLs, people want to reduce powers that were great powers ITTL? I thas nothing to do with any "anti-Ottomanism"; with such nations like the Ottomans, the Western Europeans, you either see them curbstomped, replaced by someone else, or wanked. This isn't something specific to the Ottomons.
Valdemar II
Banned
Because the Ottoman Empire was more or less at its maximum potential size, further conquest/expansion was simply unrealistic, which leave it to get smaller in alternative maps. Plus the problem the Ottoman also had, was that when it showed weakness, few states had a interest in keeping it strong, while the pure existance of the Ottoman Empire was enough casus belli for the Austrians and Russians almost to the end of the empire. I personal think the biggest mistake was that they didn't established Hungary as a buffer state between themself and the Austrians.
They did, to a certain extent; except then the Habsburgs got a whole lot of support and they got the entirety of Hungary, including Transylvania back.
Essentially, real life WAS Ottoman Wank, or alternatively people just follow what happened to the Ottoman Empire in reality and tend to have this occur earlier than in OTL. Remember, the Ottoman Empire lingered on for centuries after it's prime. It wasn't the Sick Man of Europe for nothing...
Keenir
Banned
remind me again, what happened to the regime who coined the term "sick man of europe" ?
For the record, it was 230 years from the fall of the Roman Empire to the defeat of the Ottomans at Vienna (and even more if you go back to Osman I), and 239 years from that to the formal demise of the Ottoman Empire, so one could say that their periods of ASB-ish rise and decline were roughly equal.
Plus, everyone was expecting the Ottomans to fall every year since 1683, and fall it did not. It was only when the concert of Austria and Russia put sufficient pressure on them that the Ottomans really became the sick man of Europe (not to mention that it was a Russian Tsar, after all, who coined the term).
And Russia and the Big Pink Blob aren't?
They're atleast even shaped, the OE was just jutting out everywhere, not to mention the totally ASB thing with having their capital near one of the more restive parts of the country and near the border.
Hendryk
Banned
I personally think that the Ottomans get a raw deal in AH because of lingering prejudice. Although the consensus on this forum has slowly begun to shift, traditionally they tend to be viewed either as antagonists or as a convenient source of territory to grab by this or that European power. Much of it comes from the way many of us have been taught early modern European history, in which the Ottoman empire was just that big splotch in the southeastern corner, waiting to be taken apart bit by bit until it was all gone, and not a minute too soon (a particularly egregious example is the popular Western perception of the struggle for Greek independence). We tend to take half-remembered history classes at face value (the phrase "sick man of Europe" has already been mentioned), and don't realize the AH potential of the Ottomans because we only have the foggiest idea of the way their empire worked.
I would venture that in some cases it even goes beyond ignorance and into actual racism. I've come across some TLs in which the author is positively gleeful about taking down the uppity Muslims a notch or two.
I would venture that in some cases it even goes beyond ignorance and into actual racism. I've come across some TLs in which the author is positively gleeful about taking down the uppity Muslims a notch or two.
I don't really buy this argument, because many ATLs have no problem making historically big empires even bigger. Look at the way the British empire gets wanked every other time it's mentioned, or the way the US gets to annex all of North America, and let's not mention the Germanowanks. Only the Ottoman empire, it seems, can't get bigger in an ATL.
I do agree there's lingering racism and xenophobia to a certain extent with regards to the Ottomans; even if they're as European as Englishmen or Russians are.
Or perhaps the trend of either severe cases of "paint the map pink/greenish-blue/gray/bright blue" or let's screw over everyone hasn't made it favorable for the former.
Or perhaps the trend of either severe cases of "paint the map pink/greenish-blue/gray/bright blue" or let's screw over everyone hasn't made it favorable for the former.
Certainly. I'd add islamophobic tendencies to that list, and a certain pro-christian attitude.
Then, there are more practical points as a result of the western-biased forum:
- knowledge: I suppose that most people, like I do, know a lot more about Western/European countries and western christendom than they know about the Ottomans/Muslims
- interest: I suppose most people are more interested in changes in their own history, meaning that a US-wank likely gets more readers than an Ottoman-wank. I, for example, tend to ignore the numerous posts considering what would happen if this or that decision in a single battle of the US civil war is altered...
- Difficulties: The Ottomans did extremely well IOTL up until a certain point, at which pulling a Meiji would have been possible but difficult due to several European powers having different interests and being nearby. To put it simply: it's difficult to wank an effectively multi-ethnic country much more than the Ottomans in their best times, and it's difficult to keep a multi-ethinc country together in modern times. You just need more Turks...
Not to mention that despite the attempts of the Ottomans to employ strengthening reforms, the Great Powers had assumed the Eastern Question was not a question of if, but when; and one Great Power in particular, Russia, was breathing down the Ottoman's collective necks in the guise of Pan-Slavism.
Valdemar II
Banned
There aree lot of maps with a bigger Ottoman Empire, through few serious ones, while for Britain most of their extra expansion are worthless on most maps or else it's just standard wanking. Beside the WWII maps the size of Germany tend to be somewhat restricted. Also we shouldn't forget that Germany got a raw deal in OTL it didn't even get the areas where Germans was in majority, and former part of the German nation became Dutch and Flemish.
I think the problem are that people translate bigger on A map with a stronger state, but I don't think the French ownership of Sahara strengthen the French state.
To why I think the Ottomans has reached their maximum are because I can't see them conquer the Persians, I think a Ottoman conquest of Italy are extremely unlikely*, while conquest of Vienna would only open them up to continued and increased conflict with the German princes and Habsburgs**, which would be nothing but a drain of resources. All other gain would be just empty wasteland.
*I know some people like the idea, but I don't see the French continue their alliance with the Ottomans move north of Rome. They may have liked them in Hungary but I doubt they will accept them in Tuscany or Rome, and their alliance with France was a important part of their succeeses in the conflict with the Habsburgs.
**Whom in fact may be strengthen by the fact that they have to play friendly with the Protestants to regain their ancestorial lands.
Hendryk
Banned
You'll note that even in OTL Western mapmakers begrudge the Ottomans control over "empty wasteland". Most maps from the early 20th century I've come across have the Ottoman borders curve around the Arabian desert as though it wasn't really under Ottoman dominion, when the people who lived there clearly saw themselves as subjects of the Ottomans.
Several times I've seen accusations of Ottoman-phobia on this board but I don't see it at all. Its not so much anti-ottomanism as otto-apatheticness.
I don't think there's anybody on this board who hates the Ottomans, we don't have any Balkan nationalists, most people simply don't know much about them and aren't interested in them.
The Ottomans are thus just background characters in the stories of nations people find more interesting.
I don't think there's anybody on this board who hates the Ottomans, we don't have any Balkan nationalists, most people simply don't know much about them and aren't interested in them.
The Ottomans are thus just background characters in the stories of nations people find more interesting.
Hendryk
Banned
We do have people who like to kick the Ottomans as hard as they can in their TLs, especially when it comes to ethnic cleansing. If you look, for example, at JJohnson's Grossdeutschland TL, it has Greece conquer Anatolia and forcibly remove all Turkish population in the process. That was one of the many reasons it was moved to ASB, but that hasn't kept its author from insisting that everything he writes is plausible.