Alternative Monarchs and Aristocrats Timelines
- Thread starter The Gybson Boy
- Start date
What do you mean Ernst isn't in line for anything? he is literally next in line to the HRE after Rudolf II. In OTL Rudolf II never married and never allowed his brothers to marry, if things were like OTL he definitely would not allow Ernst (next in the HRE line of succession after him) to marry the Queen of England. So the only way for the Catherine-Ernst marriage to happen would be:
1-Maximilian II lives longer, forces Rudolf II to marry and allows Ernst to marry Katherine
2-Rudolf II for some reason is a very different person, so he marries of his own free will and allows his brothers to marry
3-Felipe II urges Rudolf to allow the marriage with Ernst and Rudolf II marries to prevent a personal union England/HRE
Furthermore, Catherine would probably only become Lady of the Netherlands after the death of Mary I, perhaps at her wedding.
Rudolf would initially be betrothed to Katherine, but he is unlikely to want to marry, so the betrothal would eventually be switched to Ernest. Alternately, Ernest and Katherine are engaged from the get-go and he's shipped to England. Mary might only want a king for herself, but Philip has enough sense to know an Anglo-HRE union will go down badly...
Katherine would be engaged to Ernest from the start and Rudolf could not prevent their marriage as Ernest would not need anything settled on him by Rudolf for marrying Katherine. If anything the point is who Ernest would eventually become HRE meaning who his eldest son would inherit the Imperial Crown, the Austrian lands, Bohemia and Hungary, while the second son would inherit England. The Netherlands have equal chances to go to either son
I believe that considering that Rudolf II dies as OTL in 1612 and the HRE is elective then Philip, Prince of Wales would end up inheriting England and the Netherlands as King Philip II and VI while Charles, Duke of York would inherit the HRE with the Lands of Austria, Bohemia and Hungary as Kaiser Karl VI
I agree with Isabella, here there is the risk that the English Habsburgs try to pull a sort of Charles V Otl, because it is true that the HRE is elective, but the imperial title is tempting to many, and I don't see Philip easily renounces it ( after all it is a prestigious role, and if only a few decades earlier the title had gone to the one who later became king of Spain, why should he renounce it in favor of his younger brother ?, it is probable that some sort of agreement where Charles becomes King of Hungary and King of the Romans, while Philip proposes himself as Emperor, of course, it will be up to the voters to decide, but we cannot doubt that a similar idea would not occur to the Prince of Wales )
Honestly I think the person who would decide this would be Rudolf II, and I doubt he would like the idea of a personal England-HRE union
Not guaranteed. And as the Imperial title is higher than the English one and Ernest would be the natural successor of Rudolf (and Austrian lands are hereditary) the renounce could go either way. Philip would most likely have the choice between the Empire and England as he will need to leave either of them to his brother
What Rufolf want matter little as Philip is his heir. England would not be part such union and would tell to Philip to choose
If Rudolf has such strong feelings against it, he can always marry and leave a son, but of course, this would require him being willing to do so
in reality Rudolf can only indicate who his successor would be ( in this case Ernest ), then the actual choice is up to the Prince Electors, it is not certain that Philip will calmly want to step aside, if there is a real chance of being elected to the most prestigious position of Christianity ( besides the Pope )
I agree again, or at least if Philip really doesn't want to give up either role, the English political establishment will push him to make some sort of split along the lines of Charles V and Ferdinand I of Otl, which would see his descendants give up the imperial title in favor of the York - Hungarian branch
Brita - A Kingdom Reborn - Alan the Black, 1st Earl of Richmond, doesn’t die in 1146 and successfully restores the Kingdom of Brittany - Years later, one of his many descendants travels to very distant lands - Sofia Havisidia, Lady of Speranza (1239-1250)
A Kingdom Reborn
Alan the Black, 1st Earl of Richmond, doesn’t die in 1146 and successfully restores the Kingdom of Brittany.
Years later, one of his many descendants travels to very distant lands…
A romantic depiction of Doña Sofia exploring the New World, from a 19th-century edition of the Account of the Blessed Crossing
Sofia Havisidia, Lady of Speranza
Havisid dynasty
1239-1250
Alan the Black, 1st Earl of Richmond, doesn’t die in 1146 and successfully restores the Kingdom of Brittany.
Years later, one of his many descendants travels to very distant lands…
A romantic depiction of Doña Sofia exploring the New World, from a 19th-century edition of the Account of the Blessed Crossing
Sofia Havisidia, Lady of Speranza
Havisid dynasty
1239-1250
Other Titles: Blessed Enlightened Shepherdess of the Faithful (c.1210-1250); Cacica of Magùa (1242-1247)
Birth: Winter of 1191-1192, La Seu d’Urgell
Death: Autumn of 1250, Speranza, Nueva Tierra (modern-day Catharia)
Burial: Speranza, Nueva Tierra
Husbands: Esteban Marino (m.1215; d.1241) Hatüey, Cacico of Magùa (m.1242; d.1247)
Issue:
1 Adevisia Marina, Lady of Speranza (1215-1262)
2 Anna Marina (1218-1237)
3 Guillermo Marino (1220-1265)
4 Andrés Marino (1223-1227)
5 Esteban Marino (1226-1248)
6 Constancio Marino, Blessed Enlightened Shepherd of the Faithful (1230-1294)
7 Speranza Marina (1239-1280)
Father: An anonymous Catalan Cathar
Mother: Hawise of Brittany, aka the Lady Hawise of Dol
Religion: Havisian Catharism
History: Doña Sofia was the eldest daughter of the Lady Hawise, founder of the Havisian Church. The main source of information about her life is the Account of the Blessed Crossing, a book thought to have been written in the second half of the 13th century or in the early 14th century, although the oldest extant copy dates back to the second half of the 15th century.
Sofia’s parentage remained mysterious for a long time. The Account of the Blessed Crossing only calls her the daughter of the Enlightened Lady Hawise of Dol, “a woman of the highest breed” but does not specify Hawise’s exact identity.
The Lady Hawise was a younger sister of Constance of Brittany, Queen of Castile and Toledo by her marriage to King Alfonso VIII. Hawise accompanied Constance to Spain and became a nun soon after, settling in the Abbey of Santa María la Real de Bretaña, which her sister had founded.
A very devout Christian, Hawise claimed to hear what she called the “Voice of Sophia”, or Voice of Wisdom, talk to her in the language of the angels. She eventually left the nunnery to become a preacher. She travelled from Castile to Catalonia and settled in the County of Urgell, where she made disciples among the local Cathar population.
Hawise gave birth to Sofia in La Seu d’Urgell in the winter of 1191-1992. Sofia’s father was a Cathar whose name history has not remembered, although it was later claimed that her biological father was actually Ermengol VII of Urgell, as the Count is known to have protected Hawise and whose lands were confiscated as a result. Other theories identify Sofia’s father with Ermengol’s son and namesake Ermengol “the Younger” of Urgell. However, none of these hypotheses are supported by sources.
When Ermengol’s lands were seized by the Church, Hawise fled back to Castile with her infant daughter, seeking protection at her sister Constance’s court. Although the Queen was willing to forgive her, King Alfonso felt Hawise’s offences too serious and had her locked away in a small, isolated cell on the lands granted to the nuns of Santa María la Real de Bretaña, while little Sofia was placed in Queen Constance’s care. A few months later, Alfonso was persuaded to relent and allowed Hawise back among the nuns, even returning Sofia to her, on the express condition that she would get back to the right track. This proved too much for Hawise, who eventually escaped from the abbey with her daughter and returned to Brittany, with Constance’s secret complicity.
Once in Brittany, Sofia learnt to speak and read Breton when her mother translated several Gaelic poems into Latin and Breton. Hawise taught her what she called “Sophia’s Teachings”, a religious education deeply influenced by Catharism, Valentinianism and Celtic Christianity and old myths.
In 1202, Hawise married Andrew II of Vitré and the following year, the two them left Brittany and travelled to the Holy Land, accompanied by young Sofia and her half-siblings [1]. They spent five years in Jerusalem, then ruled by Hawise’s brother William. There, Hawise gave birth to two more children, William and Conan.
Although Hawise had ceased preaching in public, she still raised her children in her own faith. When the family returned to Brittany, Sofia chose to settle in Spain in spite of the ongoing Albigensian Crusade. Her mother advised her to stay discreet so as not to be imprisoned as she herself had been years before, reminding her of the early Breton Saints who lived as hermits. Sofia accordingly began to live a reclusive life, teaching her beliefs to a few Cathars she had met. They soon adopted an itinerant way of life in order to escape persecutions, making new disciples along the way, and Sofia soon became referred to by the title of Blessed Enlightened Shepherdess of the Faithful. In 1215, she married a mariner, Esteban “Marino”. They would have seven children, six of whom lived past infancy.
In 1236, two of Hawise’s children, preachers Anna and Juhel of Dol, had been murdered by a zealous monk. Their brother Alan fled to the Irish Kingdom of Desmond, where he would resume preaching. Hawise herself was imprisoned in a convent, while her youngest sons William and Conan were forced to abjure their heresy and locked up in a monastery.
When news of her family’s demise reached the Kingdom of Castile, Sofia and her husband felt they should leave as soon as possible, especially as persecutions against Cathars were increasing. As a sailor, Esteban had heard rumours of a faraway land across the Ocean Sea. To Sofia, these rumours seemed to echo the old Irish texts her mother had translated, which described the “Isle of the Blessed” Saint Brendan had found across the Ocean.
On 15 August 1239, Sofia and her followers set sail on five ships, placing themselves under the Virgin Mary’s protection. The journey was long and harrowing for the fugitives; in late October, they found themselves approaching a strange, calm sea covered in weeds which they called the Silent Sea [2]. There the wind did not blow and one of the ships nearly found itself trapped in the still, weedy water.
In early November at last, land was spotted and the travellers set foot on an island they named Nueva Tierra [3]. Soon after, Sofia gave birth to her seventh and final child, a girl whom she named Speranza. She then proceeded to lay the foundations of a town called Speranza as well, which became the capital of Nueva Tierra.
The exiles soon found that the island was not uninhabited but first contacts with the native inhabitants were peaceful enough. The Taínos, as they called themselves, welcomed the newcomers, which they nicknamed “Ocean people”. Sofia was impressed to see the important place granted to women in their society, which was so different from that of European women.
Esteban Marino died in 1241 and Sofia and their children mourned him bitterly. The following year, Sofia married Hatüey, Cacico of Magùa. She kept passing her mother’s teachings down to her flock but her faith was soon influenced by the Taínos’ own beliefs and she found a similarity between their major semis Atabey and her son Yúcahu, and the Christian figures of Mary and Jesus.
As time passed however, several Taínos fell sick and died, while Sofia and most of her brethren recovered. Because she was married to their cacico, the natives did not blame her openly but in 1247, Hatüey died too. Sofia, widowed for the second time, then realised the Taínos were growing wary of the Ocean people. She did her best to convince them that the sickness was not her doing but eventually decided to leave Speranza with a small party of faithful followers, hoping to find some uninhabited land where they would be able to settle without bringing pain to the natives.
She spent the next three years travelling across the Havisian Isles [4] accompanied by other Havisians and a few Taínos who had chosen to stay by her side, but all islands were either inhabited or proved too inhospitable for them. They eventually returned to Speranza, where Sofia died in the autumn of 1250. Her eldest daughter Adevisia, who had married the new Cacico of Magùa, succeeded her as Lady of Speranza and her youngest son Constancio was chosen as the new Shepherd of the Faithful.
[1] Anna, Juhel and Alan, born from Hawise’s liaison with Juhel II, Archbishop of Dol.
[2] OTL Sargasso Sea.
[3] OTL Hispaniola.
[4] OTL Caribbean.
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Thank you! Sofia's story's been at the back of my mind for a very long time now, so I'm glad I'm able to post it at last.