Alternate Republic of China Navy- ideas and discussion
- Thread starter abc123
- Start date
abc123
Banned
OK, situation in Vietnam, as I see it:
1945
everything as in OTL, Japanese surrender, Chinese troops enter North Vietnam
1946
Chinese troops, after a deal with the French, leave North Vietnam, French take colony back. Viet Minh retreats into the jungle. China is in mid of Civil war, so they can't pay close attention on situation in Vietnam.
1947
everything as in OTL, start of guerilla warfare in Vietnam. China is still in their own Civil War, so they don't meddle in Vietnam.
1948
Here comes the major POD. Nationalists win in Chinese Civil War. Meanwhile, war in Vietnam is continued. French organise State of Vietnam ( within the French Union ) with Bao Đai as Head of State.
1949
China is enough consolidated after the Civil War, so they can start meddle into Vietnam. Chinese are not sure what to do. They do not want French retaining their colonies/influence in Asia. OTOH, they are VERY against Communists/Viet Minh. China starts to push for negotiated solution.
Meanwhile, war in Vietnam is continued.
1950
China starts to pressure both sides ( French and Viet Minh ) to try to make some sort of agreement. Chinese ask that the French leave Indochina, otherwise they will start to sent weapons and supplies to Viet Minh. OTOH, they want unified Vietnam, and that means coalition of Vietnamese Kuomintang and other non-Communist parties and Viet Minh, with Bao Đai as Head of State/Emperor in constitutional monarchy. So they pressure Viet Minh to accept the proposal, if they want their help.
1951
Conference of Bangkok. Chinese and the United States are main mediators. They agree that the French will retreat from Vietnam within one year. Vietnam will become Empire of Vietnam, as constitutional monarchy, with Bao Long ( son of Bao Đai ) as Emperor. Provisional Government is formed, with Vu Hong Khanh as Prime Minister and Ho Chi Minh and Ngo Đinh Diem as Deputy Prime Ministers. Power is shared between Communists and other parties, with 50% ministers are from Viet Minh and other 50% from other parties. Elections for Constituent Assembly will be held within 12 months, under supervision of observers from France, China, United States, Indonesia and Czechoslovakia. Constituent Assembly will make a new Constitution within 6 months and elect a new Government. Vietnam will be neutral country, with no foreign military bases.
1952
Provisional Government is formed. French troops leave Vietnam at the end of 1952. Elections in Vietnam are held under foreign supervision.
Cambodia and Laos also became independent states as in OTL.
1945
everything as in OTL, Japanese surrender, Chinese troops enter North Vietnam
1946
Chinese troops, after a deal with the French, leave North Vietnam, French take colony back. Viet Minh retreats into the jungle. China is in mid of Civil war, so they can't pay close attention on situation in Vietnam.
1947
everything as in OTL, start of guerilla warfare in Vietnam. China is still in their own Civil War, so they don't meddle in Vietnam.
1948
Here comes the major POD. Nationalists win in Chinese Civil War. Meanwhile, war in Vietnam is continued. French organise State of Vietnam ( within the French Union ) with Bao Đai as Head of State.
1949
China is enough consolidated after the Civil War, so they can start meddle into Vietnam. Chinese are not sure what to do. They do not want French retaining their colonies/influence in Asia. OTOH, they are VERY against Communists/Viet Minh. China starts to push for negotiated solution.
Meanwhile, war in Vietnam is continued.
1950
China starts to pressure both sides ( French and Viet Minh ) to try to make some sort of agreement. Chinese ask that the French leave Indochina, otherwise they will start to sent weapons and supplies to Viet Minh. OTOH, they want unified Vietnam, and that means coalition of Vietnamese Kuomintang and other non-Communist parties and Viet Minh, with Bao Đai as Head of State/Emperor in constitutional monarchy. So they pressure Viet Minh to accept the proposal, if they want their help.
1951
Conference of Bangkok. Chinese and the United States are main mediators. They agree that the French will retreat from Vietnam within one year. Vietnam will become Empire of Vietnam, as constitutional monarchy, with Bao Long ( son of Bao Đai ) as Emperor. Provisional Government is formed, with Vu Hong Khanh as Prime Minister and Ho Chi Minh and Ngo Đinh Diem as Deputy Prime Ministers. Power is shared between Communists and other parties, with 50% ministers are from Viet Minh and other 50% from other parties. Elections for Constituent Assembly will be held within 12 months, under supervision of observers from France, China, United States, Indonesia and Czechoslovakia. Constituent Assembly will make a new Constitution within 6 months and elect a new Government. Vietnam will be neutral country, with no foreign military bases.
1952
Provisional Government is formed. French troops leave Vietnam at the end of 1952. Elections in Vietnam are held under foreign supervision.
Cambodia and Laos also became independent states as in OTL.
Last edited:
abc123
Banned
1952
RoC Navy, decided to buy 18 motor torpedo boats from the US Navy. Also they started to build a new small station on the tip of Shandong Peninsula, where new MTB-s will be based. The purpose of new base is to enable easier closing of Korea Bay if North Korean and PRC naval forces try to get out.
Torpedo boat
RoC Navy, decided to buy 18 motor torpedo boats from the US Navy. Also they started to build a new small station on the tip of Shandong Peninsula, where new MTB-s will be based. The purpose of new base is to enable easier closing of Korea Bay if North Korean and PRC naval forces try to get out.
Torpedo boat
abc123
Banned
In 1952, RoC also started to develop their domestic shipbuilding industry. Old Mawei Shipyard, now in ruins, was re-founded as Mawei Arsenal Ltd. The company was owned by the government, but the Government issued a tender for running the shipyard for next 15 years, asking for foreign strategic partner, with a lot of experience in shipbuilding.
Chinese Government said that they will buy their ships from this shipyard, and strategic partner will secure loans ( Government will guarantee for loans ), invest in building of modern shipyard, train work force, bring foreign consultants etc.
So, a tender was issued to foreign companies.
Old Mawei Arsenal
Chinese Government said that they will buy their ships from this shipyard, and strategic partner will secure loans ( Government will guarantee for loans ), invest in building of modern shipyard, train work force, bring foreign consultants etc.
So, a tender was issued to foreign companies.
Old Mawei Arsenal
Last edited:
Good start I would have Emperor Thanh Thi as the new Emperor of Vietnam as he rebelled against the French at the turn of the century and consistently advocated for an independent Vietnam. Which means that he was seen throughout Vietnam as having very strong independence credentials, which is important vis a vis Ho Chi Minh. Now in OTL he passed away in 1954, which would provide another two to three years of stability prior to Bao Long ascending the throne. Good choice for Prime Minister and that would presage a far stronger VNQDD feel to the government, which would be logical if the Nationalists win the civil war that they would support friendly political parties.
The Viet Minh was a disparate force that in essence provided a united front against the Japanese and later the French. The VNQDD was functionally destroyed following the Yen Bai movement and did not recover in OTL. However, during OTL there are numerous opportunities for its resurgence and for the KMT to limit the support provided to the Viet Minh and by extension the ICP. Hell we can even include the Dai Viet as well.
So without the sanctuaries provided by Maoist China the insurgency in Indochina is frankly headed for a draw. The French will not be able to completely eradicate the Viet Minh from the countryside, the Viet Minh will not be able to conquer the cities without the logistical and training support provided by the PLA.
If the French are smart and there is no reason to believe they would not be, they would accelerate independence for Vietnam and attempt to achieve a government of unity with the nationalist elements of the Viet Minh rather than the Communists. This is something that I could see the KMT assisting with.
abc123
Banned
Agreed. That would also enable the French to save face, by not giving up to the communists too.
Maybe I can add that the French get right to keep military base in Cam Ranh for say 5 or 10 years, as additional face saving measure...
They DID get that in Algeria ( Oran and nuclear testing ground in Sahara ) in OTL.
abc123
Banned
Four companies applied on a tender for running of Mawei Arsenal:
1. Bath Iron Works
2. Vickers Armstrongs
3. Swan Hunter
4. Betlehem Shipbuilding Corporation
After long deliberation, China decided to make the deal with Bath Iron Works. BIW will get 15 years concession to run the shipyard, secure funding, invest in modern technology and train workers. China promised to build all their new naval ships there and not to set up any similar shipyard for next 7 years.
President of the BIW said that by 1955 Mawei Arsenal will be ready to build any type of ship that Chinese Navy will order from them.
1. Bath Iron Works
2. Vickers Armstrongs
3. Swan Hunter
4. Betlehem Shipbuilding Corporation
After long deliberation, China decided to make the deal with Bath Iron Works. BIW will get 15 years concession to run the shipyard, secure funding, invest in modern technology and train workers. China promised to build all their new naval ships there and not to set up any similar shipyard for next 7 years.
President of the BIW said that by 1955 Mawei Arsenal will be ready to build any type of ship that Chinese Navy will order from them.
Last edited:
abc123
Banned
1953
Meanwhile, RoC Navy was confident enough to start operating all their ships without foreign "advisors", alltrough some of them were kept as training assistants in Naval Academy and on training ships. So, that brought larger ambitions in Chinese Navy. They wanted some sort of flagship, especially because India allready had such ship- INS Delhi, so China asked from the United States Atlanta-class light cruiser USS San Juan. Considering that USS San Juan was decomissioned since 1946, USN accepted, but said that they will give them USS San Juan only after a year long training program, supervised by the US Navy officers.
USS San Juan ( RoCS Taiwan )
China also asked the US Navy for additional 6 Tacoma-class frigates for better control of Korean Bay.
Meanwhile, RoC Navy was confident enough to start operating all their ships without foreign "advisors", alltrough some of them were kept as training assistants in Naval Academy and on training ships. So, that brought larger ambitions in Chinese Navy. They wanted some sort of flagship, especially because India allready had such ship- INS Delhi, so China asked from the United States Atlanta-class light cruiser USS San Juan. Considering that USS San Juan was decomissioned since 1946, USN accepted, but said that they will give them USS San Juan only after a year long training program, supervised by the US Navy officers.
USS San Juan ( RoCS Taiwan )
China also asked the US Navy for additional 6 Tacoma-class frigates for better control of Korean Bay.
Last edited:
abc123
Banned
Not exactly naval update, but significant thing non the less:
TIBET
After Armistice in Chinese Civil War, in 1949 President Chiang Kai-Shek ordered RoC Army and Air Force to start making pressure on Tibet. Chinese Army units started crossing the border of Tibet and defeated Tibetan forces there. Chiang than asked Tibetan represenatives to come to Nanjing and make a deal. After short negotiations at the end of 1949 they agreed to make:
Agreement for peaceful reincorporation of Tibet Territory into Republic of China:
Considering that Tibet Territory is part of China since times immemorial and also considering that Tibet Territory enjoyed authonomy within China under their own officials, laws and customs, both sides ( Tibetal Local Government and Central Government of the Republic of China ) have agreed:
1. The Tibetan people shall return to the family of the Motherland the Republic of China
2. The local government of Tibet shall actively assist the RoC Armed Forces to enter Tibet and consolidate the national defenses.
3. In accordance with the policy towards nationalities laid down in the Common Programme of the National Assembly the Tibetan people have the right of exercising national regional autonomy under the unified leadership of the Central Government, as provisioned by Constitution of the Republic of China 1946.
4. The central authorities will basicly not alter the existing political system in Tibet. The central authorities also will not alter the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama. Officials of various ranks shall hold office as usual.
5. The established status, functions and powers of the Panchen Ngoerhtehni shall be maintained.
By the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama and of the Panchen Ngoerhtehni are meant the status, functions and powers of the thirteenth Dalai Lama and the ninth Panchen Ngoerhtehni when they had friendly and amicable relations with each other.
6. The policy of freedom of religious belief laid down in the Constitution of the RoC shall be carried out. The religious beliefs, customs and habits of the Tibetan people shall be respected and lama monasteries shall be protected.
7. The central authorities will not effect a change in the income of the monasteries.
8. Tibetan troops shall be reorganised step by step into the RoC Army and become a part of the defence force of the RoC within two years.
9. The spoken and written language and school education of the Tibetan nationality shall be developed step by step in accordance with the actual conditions in Tibet.
10. Tibetan agriculture, livestock raising, industry and commerce shall be developed step by step and the people's livelihood shall be improved step by step in accordance with the actual conditions in Tibet.
11. In matters relating to various reforms in Tibet, there will be no compulsion on the part of the central authorities. The local government of Tibet shall carry out reforms of its own accord, and, when the people raise demands for reform, they shall be settled by means of consultation with the leading personnel of Tibet.
12. The RoC Armed Forces entering Tibet shall abide by all the above-mentioned policies and shall also be fair in all buying and selling and shall not arbitrarily take a needle or thread from the people.
13. Central Government will take care for foreign relations, defence, state security, border control, trade and monetary afairs of Tibet and whole China.
14. In order to ensure the implementation of this agreement, the CG shall organise a Military Area HQ in Tibet and – apart from the personnel sent there by the CG – shall absorb as many local Tibetan personnel as possible to take part in the work.
15. Local Tibetan personnel taking part in the Tibetan Affairs Comittee may include patriotic elements from the local government of Tibet, various districts and various principal monasteries; the name list shall be set forth after consultation between the representatives designated by the CG and various quarters concerned and shall be submitted to the CG for appointment.
16. Funds needed by the Tibetan Affairs Comission, the Military Area HQ and the RoC Armed Forces entering Tibet shall be provided by the CG. The local government of Tibet should assist the CG bodies in the purchase and transport of food, fodder and other daily necessities as well in execution of their responsabilities mentioned in point 13.
17. Central Government will appoint, from time to time, a High Comissioner for Tibet Territory as their representative in Tibet. He will make all communication between Central Government and local government in Tibet. He will be stationed in Lhasa, and he can have several Assistant High Comissioners stationed in other parts of Tibet.
18. This agreement shall come into force immediately after signature and seals are affixed to it.
TIBET
After Armistice in Chinese Civil War, in 1949 President Chiang Kai-Shek ordered RoC Army and Air Force to start making pressure on Tibet. Chinese Army units started crossing the border of Tibet and defeated Tibetan forces there. Chiang than asked Tibetan represenatives to come to Nanjing and make a deal. After short negotiations at the end of 1949 they agreed to make:
Agreement for peaceful reincorporation of Tibet Territory into Republic of China:
Considering that Tibet Territory is part of China since times immemorial and also considering that Tibet Territory enjoyed authonomy within China under their own officials, laws and customs, both sides ( Tibetal Local Government and Central Government of the Republic of China ) have agreed:
1. The Tibetan people shall return to the family of the Motherland the Republic of China
2. The local government of Tibet shall actively assist the RoC Armed Forces to enter Tibet and consolidate the national defenses.
3. In accordance with the policy towards nationalities laid down in the Common Programme of the National Assembly the Tibetan people have the right of exercising national regional autonomy under the unified leadership of the Central Government, as provisioned by Constitution of the Republic of China 1946.
4. The central authorities will basicly not alter the existing political system in Tibet. The central authorities also will not alter the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama. Officials of various ranks shall hold office as usual.
5. The established status, functions and powers of the Panchen Ngoerhtehni shall be maintained.
By the established status, functions and powers of the Dalai Lama and of the Panchen Ngoerhtehni are meant the status, functions and powers of the thirteenth Dalai Lama and the ninth Panchen Ngoerhtehni when they had friendly and amicable relations with each other.
6. The policy of freedom of religious belief laid down in the Constitution of the RoC shall be carried out. The religious beliefs, customs and habits of the Tibetan people shall be respected and lama monasteries shall be protected.
7. The central authorities will not effect a change in the income of the monasteries.
8. Tibetan troops shall be reorganised step by step into the RoC Army and become a part of the defence force of the RoC within two years.
9. The spoken and written language and school education of the Tibetan nationality shall be developed step by step in accordance with the actual conditions in Tibet.
10. Tibetan agriculture, livestock raising, industry and commerce shall be developed step by step and the people's livelihood shall be improved step by step in accordance with the actual conditions in Tibet.
11. In matters relating to various reforms in Tibet, there will be no compulsion on the part of the central authorities. The local government of Tibet shall carry out reforms of its own accord, and, when the people raise demands for reform, they shall be settled by means of consultation with the leading personnel of Tibet.
12. The RoC Armed Forces entering Tibet shall abide by all the above-mentioned policies and shall also be fair in all buying and selling and shall not arbitrarily take a needle or thread from the people.
13. Central Government will take care for foreign relations, defence, state security, border control, trade and monetary afairs of Tibet and whole China.
14. In order to ensure the implementation of this agreement, the CG shall organise a Military Area HQ in Tibet and – apart from the personnel sent there by the CG – shall absorb as many local Tibetan personnel as possible to take part in the work.
15. Local Tibetan personnel taking part in the Tibetan Affairs Comittee may include patriotic elements from the local government of Tibet, various districts and various principal monasteries; the name list shall be set forth after consultation between the representatives designated by the CG and various quarters concerned and shall be submitted to the CG for appointment.
16. Funds needed by the Tibetan Affairs Comission, the Military Area HQ and the RoC Armed Forces entering Tibet shall be provided by the CG. The local government of Tibet should assist the CG bodies in the purchase and transport of food, fodder and other daily necessities as well in execution of their responsabilities mentioned in point 13.
17. Central Government will appoint, from time to time, a High Comissioner for Tibet Territory as their representative in Tibet. He will make all communication between Central Government and local government in Tibet. He will be stationed in Lhasa, and he can have several Assistant High Comissioners stationed in other parts of Tibet.
18. This agreement shall come into force immediately after signature and seals are affixed to it.
Last edited:
abc123
Banned
1954
This year had no major accomplishments. Six Tacoma-class frigates were recieved from US Navy and sent in new naval base in Longxudao. Also, cruiser ROCN Taiwan was comissioned into RoC Navy as flagship.
Chinese Navy started to plan for new class of patrol boat that will be produced in Mawei Arsenal from next year. Patrol boats will have displacement of about 800 t, speed of about 22 kts, be armed with 1 x 3-inch gun, 2 x 40 mm guns and 4 x .50-cal machine guns. They will also have racks for laying mines and single Hedgehog ASW mortar. They will actually be enlarged and upgraded Admirable class.
Chinese Navy wants to produce about 30 such boats.
This year had no major accomplishments. Six Tacoma-class frigates were recieved from US Navy and sent in new naval base in Longxudao. Also, cruiser ROCN Taiwan was comissioned into RoC Navy as flagship.
Chinese Navy started to plan for new class of patrol boat that will be produced in Mawei Arsenal from next year. Patrol boats will have displacement of about 800 t, speed of about 22 kts, be armed with 1 x 3-inch gun, 2 x 40 mm guns and 4 x .50-cal machine guns. They will also have racks for laying mines and single Hedgehog ASW mortar. They will actually be enlarged and upgraded Admirable class.
Chinese Navy wants to produce about 30 such boats.
Last edited:
abc123
Banned
Situation in Korea ITTL.
Well, basicly, it's all the same, but without Korean War. Without Communist victory in mainland China, even Stalin doesn't feels sure enough to start real invasion. So, Korean Peninsula is very hot area, but without war. There are numerous provocations along the 38th parallel, but Communist insurgency in South is allmost crushed. That doesn't prevents sabouters and infiltrators from the North trough. Syngman Rhee was still the president, but in elections 1952 he was not elected again. New President of the Republic of Korea became Chough Pyung-ok.
Chough Pyung-ok
South Korean Armed Forces are growing slowly, with the US giving them more and more support, because of threat of attack from the North.
Well, basicly, it's all the same, but without Korean War. Without Communist victory in mainland China, even Stalin doesn't feels sure enough to start real invasion. So, Korean Peninsula is very hot area, but without war. There are numerous provocations along the 38th parallel, but Communist insurgency in South is allmost crushed. That doesn't prevents sabouters and infiltrators from the North trough. Syngman Rhee was still the president, but in elections 1952 he was not elected again. New President of the Republic of Korea became Chough Pyung-ok.
Chough Pyung-ok
South Korean Armed Forces are growing slowly, with the US giving them more and more support, because of threat of attack from the North.
abc123
Banned
1955
Construction of first five units of new class of patrol boats started in Mawei Arsenal. RoC Navy plans to lay five ships each year, so that they can have all 30 of them built by 1962.
With slow rebuild of Japanese Navy ( highlighted by transfer of USS Mingo- Gato class submarine and launch of Harukaze-class destroyer ) China started to be worried. So they asked United States to buy additional submarines, this time 6 Gato-class submarines.
Gato-class submarine
New submarines will be based in Qingdao.
Construction of first five units of new class of patrol boats started in Mawei Arsenal. RoC Navy plans to lay five ships each year, so that they can have all 30 of them built by 1962.
With slow rebuild of Japanese Navy ( highlighted by transfer of USS Mingo- Gato class submarine and launch of Harukaze-class destroyer ) China started to be worried. So they asked United States to buy additional submarines, this time 6 Gato-class submarines.
Gato-class submarine
New submarines will be based in Qingdao.
Last edited:
abc123
Banned
INDOCHINA- VIETNAM
With independence of Indochina ( Kingdom of Cambodia, Kingdom of Laos and Empire of Vietnam ) and French troops left only in Cam Ranh Bay, new Government of Vietnam started to lay claims on Paracel and Spratley islands. Curiously, two deputy prime ministers Ho Chi Minh and Ngo Đinh Diem were in complete agreement that these islands belong to Vietnam ( on basis of previous French administration there ) and that Vietnam must claim them as their territory. Considering that they had majority in Provisional Government, they suceeded to force their ideas to be accepted. So, in 1952, Vietnam announced that Paracel and Spratley Islands belong to them and not China. They also announced that Vietnam will send their military forces to take control of islands.
But, considering that their navy was weak and was mainly composed of ships like this:
they were in no real possibility to do anything to really take the islands.
China said that these islands belong to China and hat they will respond by force if Vietnam or any other country tries to take over any of them. China also announced that they will send additional Marine detachments on two islands in Paracels and three islands in Spratleys.
Maps:
http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=96r5kpc2x25dg26sds4t.png
RoC garrisons in Paracel Islands
http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=nglewm5uzal6i04nkfa6.png
RoC garrisons in Spratley islands
With independence of Indochina ( Kingdom of Cambodia, Kingdom of Laos and Empire of Vietnam ) and French troops left only in Cam Ranh Bay, new Government of Vietnam started to lay claims on Paracel and Spratley islands. Curiously, two deputy prime ministers Ho Chi Minh and Ngo Đinh Diem were in complete agreement that these islands belong to Vietnam ( on basis of previous French administration there ) and that Vietnam must claim them as their territory. Considering that they had majority in Provisional Government, they suceeded to force their ideas to be accepted. So, in 1952, Vietnam announced that Paracel and Spratley Islands belong to them and not China. They also announced that Vietnam will send their military forces to take control of islands.
But, considering that their navy was weak and was mainly composed of ships like this:
they were in no real possibility to do anything to really take the islands.
China said that these islands belong to China and hat they will respond by force if Vietnam or any other country tries to take over any of them. China also announced that they will send additional Marine detachments on two islands in Paracels and three islands in Spratleys.
Maps:
http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=96r5kpc2x25dg26sds4t.png
RoC garrisons in Paracel Islands
http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=nglewm5uzal6i04nkfa6.png
RoC garrisons in Spratley islands