AH Challenge: Man on Mars by 1985

[alt_historian]

Polish Eagle
There also another On List
Thomas Paine !
Chef of NASA and the guy who shut down Saturn V production.

more on this:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=147321

alt_historian
were dit you find that post ?!

... Oh, I'm sorry! It was RalofTyr who said that, not you... I must have mixed a quote from you in there somehow while writing the reply

Also, I was thinking. If something like Sea Dragon was adopted, that'd be useful getting stuff into LEO to put together en masse. Say, a 1,100 ton Mars ship, in two launches.

 

[neopeius]

You've got to have Soviet competition to keep the space program going. That means you need a Soviet moon landing by 1970.

If the POD is 1965, it probably won't happen via an N-1 so that's OKB-1 out.
It's not going to be via a UR-700. After the big boom of 1969, no one's gonna trust it. So that's OKB-52 out.

I like the idea of Yangel building his R-56 and launching a simple EOR mission to the moon(in conjunction with the other two bureaux). Maybe Korolev dies in 1965 rather than 1966, and Yangel manages to wangle his way into the limelight more than he did historically.

 

[Michel Van]

i look in Mission Desgin
all right until this
Mars escape speed is 5027 m/s
and RS&MM get only 3201 m/s
so we need a second RS module !

the Saturn V-23 rocket brings a payload 262 tonnes in low earth orbit or 98 tons direct to Mars

Four launchs
one bring the Returnstage RS with Lox/Methan in Marsorbit with aerobraking (heatshield)
two bring the Returnstage RS with Lox/Methan in Marsorbit with aerobraking (heatshield)
three bring the Mars exploration Module MEM and Ascent Vehicle makes aerobraking into Marsorbit
four bring the Crew in Mission Module (MM) with Skylab and Apollo CSM Block IV wit 2 LM engines

the MM keep its aerodynamic cover as aerobraking heatshield
the Crew stay in Apollo CSM until MM leave Earth Orbit towards Mars
then they Open the aerodynamic cover and docks with Skylab docking system
and close the aerodynamic cover again, during first 10 day they transform the spend fueltank into skylab.
this inklude a centrifuge for crew because,
at Mars the aerobraking is brutal deacceleration with several time of earth gravity.

In Mars Orbit the MEM and the RSs rendevous with Mission Module
the Crew makes EVA to check MM and aid the Returnstage to dock with it
the J2-S from MM and MEM are remove and keep as reseve in case J-2S of Returnstages is damaged.
then the landing crew goes into MEM (S-IVB tank + descent & Ascent Vehicle ) and lands on Mars
in case something goes wrong they use the Ascent Vehicle to return to Mars orbit
after landing the crew makes first EVA after that transform the landed S-IVB tank into Marslab
at end of Exporation of Mars the crew takeoff with Ascent Vehicle and Rendevous with MM&RS stack

The Crew start to check the MM&RS and start to disconnect and drop:
the aerodynamic covers, J-2S not needed, garbage bags and the Ascent Vehicle
that to reduce the mass of MM for return to Earth

after they leave Mars Orbit RS are dropt
near Earth the Crew get back in Apollo CSM dock off the MM
and return to Earth

so do you like this mission proposal ?

 

[RalofTyr]

No and no...

So you haven't read all the Soviet's plans for space, and yet, you know they've never thought about using the same technology the Americans used. You're not making any sense and your argument is just your personal theory not based on facts and nothing more.

Yes, but it doesn't help when your best rocket engine designer and your best manager not only refuse to work together (and being heads of design bureaus, that essentially is like Marshall and Johnson not working together), but actively work to undermine each other. It really doesn't help that when said manager dies and his successor proves to be much less competent, the rocket designer essentially focuses on playing politics and taking over his bureau instead of actually trying to help his county's space program. The total lack of control from the people supposedly overseeing these children doesn't aid in development either, and neither does their lack of care about what the children are making. It was...pretty darn bad.

Who says they were the best? The inference they refuse to work together means nothing. Following your logic, the entire Soviet Space program should have ended in the '60s or '70s when the quarrel began as it would have clearly prevented any advancement of the Soviet Space program, by your assessment.

 

[alt_historian]

i look in Mission Desgin
all right until this
Mars escape speed is 5027 m/s
and RS&MM get only 3201 m/s
so we need a second RS module !

the Saturn V-23 rocket brings a payload 262 tonnes in low earth orbit or 98 tons direct to Mars

Four launchs
one bring the Returnstage RS with Lox/Methan in Marsorbit with aerobraking (heatshield)
two bring the Returnstage RS with Lox/Methan in Marsorbit with aerobraking (heatshield)
three bring the Mars exploration Module MEM and Ascent Vehicle makes aerobraking into Marsorbit
four bring the Crew in Mission Module (MM) with Skylab and Apollo CSM Block IV wit 2 LM engines

the MM keep its aerodynamic cover as aerobraking heatshield
the Crew stay in Apollo CSM until MM leave Earth Orbit towards Mars
then they Open the aerodynamic cover and docks with Skylab docking system
and close the aerodynamic cover again, during first 10 day they transform the spend fueltank into skylab.
this inklude a centrifuge for crew because,
at Mars the aerobraking is brutal deacceleration with several time of earth gravity.

In Mars Orbit the MEM and the RSs rendevous with Mission Module
the Crew makes EVA to check MM and aid the Returnstage to dock with it
the J2-S from MM and MEM are remove and keep as reseve in case J-2S of Returnstages is damaged.
then the landing crew goes into MEM (S-IVB tank + descent & Ascent Vehicle ) and lands on Mars
in case something goes wrong they use the Ascent Vehicle to return to Mars orbit
after landing the crew makes first EVA after that transform the landed S-IVB tank into Marslab
at end of Exporation of Mars the crew takeoff with Ascent Vehicle and Rendevous with MM&RS stack

The Crew start to check the MM&RS and start to disconnect and drop:
the aerodynamic covers, J-2S not needed, garbage bags and the Ascent Vehicle
that to reduce the mass of MM for return to Earth

after they leave Mars Orbit RS are dropt
near Earth the Crew get back in Apollo CSM dock off the MM
and return to Earth

so do you like this mission proposal?

Short answer - yes, I do. Though I don't have the detailed technical knowledge to assess it properly...

 

[Workable Goblin]

So you haven't read all the Soviet's plans for space, and yet, you know they've never thought about using the same technology the Americans used. You're not making any sense and your argument is just your personal theory not based on facts and nothing more.

What I meant by "no and no" is simply that, no, I haven't read all the plans proposed by the Soviets in any capacity to reach Mars (if for no other reason than some of them are probably rotting in archives which I have no access to), and so, no, I don't know if they ever proposed "using the same technology the Americans used." The real problem, which I expressed in the two paragraphs you completely ignored right after that, is that I have no idea what you mean by "using the same technology the Americans used" or "the same plan as the American Moon landing". I proposed one idea based on your actual little story (Mars Semi-Direct) and one based on your words (insane silly mission), hoping for clarification. And you totally ignored that and chose instead to criticize me for not understanding you!

Who says they were the best? The inference they refuse to work together means nothing. Following your logic, the entire Soviet Space program should have ended in the '60s or '70s when the quarrel began as it would have clearly prevented any advancement of the Soviet Space program, by your assessment.

Well, the fact that they were both politically powerful and the leaders of the Soviet manned program (together with Yangel and Chelomei) says that they were the best...at least, the best who had any chance of their stuff going in. And the only reason Soviet space didn't totally die after that is because they needed it for national prestige purposes and the infighting tremendously died off once Glushko was ascendant, since he was the main source of most of it. Seriously, he sent several other engineers to the gulag earlier in his career. Once he didn't have anything movable in his way, he just settled in. The rockets got more reliable, and the cosmonauts stopped dying. Plus, the US stopped doing extravagant space spectaculars, so the Soviets could compete relatively cheaply.

Basically, from 1966-1969, the program was moving forwards under the hopes of at least tying with the Americans in the Space Race. From 1969-1974, it was moving forward due to inertia, the need for national prestige likely to be provided by future space projects, and the important military and economic uses of space flight. From 1974-1989 it was moving forward because the rockets were actually working, cosmonauts were actually flying, and the Americans had descoped the Race to something the Soviets could successfully compete in.

 

[Workable Goblin]

The question of cryogens is about the upper stage engines. The F-1, for example, was an RP-1/LOX engine, just like the ones on the R-7! Clearly, the Russians were more than capable of building semi-cryogenic engines for use on their rockets, however the focus on ICBMs meant they used a lot of storable propellants, with lower ISPs and more safety issues. OTL, they didn't build any cryogenic (LH2/LOX) engines until the '80s, for Energia.

This post is slightly inaccurate. Rereading shows that Glushko didn't feel that large RP-1/LOX engines were practical (which turned out to be utter nonsense, as he himself showed with the mentioned RD-170). It would be very good if he could avoid doing that.