A Storm of Steel and Fire (an alternate WW2 history)

Construction of the west wall will mean less tanks and ships for the Germans as their bunker designs required enormous amounts of steel. FYI manstein via a number of sources saw full designs and photos of maginot bunkers in otl which spurred not only his desire to copy it directly when he worked for foster in the engineering dept but also spurred him to get the stuggs built overcome them
 
Welcome to the forum fellow noob! Just a question concerning bomber development. What will become of the bomber B programme? will it be cancelled, or will the Germans put more work into the DB 604 engine? To standardize production, I could see at least the he 111 and Do 17's being replaced by a Bomber B design.

But that's just my two cents. A very interesting story, looking forward to more!
 
Chapter 2: The Calm Before the Storm

Chapter 2: The Calm Before the Storm

August 23rd, 1939-The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is signed to the shock of the world. No one could believe the Nazis and the Soviets, bitter political and racial enemies, would sign a non-aggression pact. Hitler does this to secure his eastern flank, Stalin to bide time.
In Moscow Stalin lights one of his cigars and through the cloud of smoke looks at the assembled Stavka (Soviet General Staff).
"Well comrades, the Fascists have take the bait and we must bide our time until the time is ripe to reel them in." The men nod in agreement.

September 1st, 1939- The Germans invade Poland using the new military concept of blitzkrieg.

September 3rd, 1939- England and France reluctantly declare war on Germany and its puppet state of Slovakia. Entente High Command decides not to send probing attacks into the German Westwall. The casualties that they would take for the territory they would gain would be not worth the cost.

September 17th, 1939- Under the secret arrangements of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact Soviet forces invade eastern Poland which only hastens the Polish defeat.

October 6th, 1939- Following the Polish defeat at the Battle of Kock German and Soviet forces gain complete control over Poland. The Second Polish Republic had been defeated. Refugees and survivors of the Poland military formed the Polish Armed Forces in the West and would serve the Polish government-in-exile.

October 8th, 1939- Two days after the Battle of Poland, Germany annexes the western quarter of Poland into the German Reich. Central Poland will be the German controlled administration area called the General Government; eastern Poland will be annexed into the Soviet Socialist Republics of Belorussia and the Ukraine. Slovakia also annexes a very small portion of southern Poland.
(3rd Major POD) Due to the poor performance of the Red Army in eastern Poland Stalin orders massive changes to discipline, doctrine, strategy and combat effectiveness at all military levels. This Red Army restructuring is led by the brilliant General Zhukov who's many suggestions are invaluable to the Army Restructuring, including an effective chain and command (new ranking system similar to most other countries) and the importance of tanks and motorized units. These changes are implemented at break neck speed but the finalization and completion of the Restructure will not end until late 1941 or early 1942 at the earliest.

October-November, 1939- Leaving only 10 veteran infantry divisions, with another five newly raised divisions on the way, in German occupied General Government Hitler and the German General Staff begin preparations of the invasion of the West. A modified Schlieffen Plan (the plan the German Army used to invade Belgium and France during the First World War) is the current plan to invade the West but this can be subject to change.

November 30th, 1939- Stalin wanting to create more buffer space between the Soviet Union and German influenced areas orders the Red Army to invade Finland. The Soviets use mass penetration doctrine (Soviet version of blitzkrieg, a less refined strategy). To the surprise of nearly everyone the Finns are able to hold the more numerous Red Army in many places. Soviet casualties are heavy for little gain.

December 20th, 1939- Due to the overall poor performance of the Red Army against Finland in what was becoming known as the Winter War Stalin replaces Marshal Kliment Voroshilov with Marshal Semyon Timoshenko on December 20th, 1939. Timoshenko orders all combat operations to cease, except for Red Air Force bombings and sorties, to re-evaluate the military solution.
Stalin urges Timoshenko to hurry. He has other plans waiting to be activated...

January 2nd, 1940- Timoshenko launches Operation Coffin Nail against Finland. Using a strategy strongly reminiscent of Zhukov's strategy at Khalkhin Gol against the Japanese in 1938. Timoshenko also employs concentrated armor attacks along the line the Germans used against the Poles.

January 6th, 1940- After 4 days of intense combat Soviet forces break through Finnish lines in multiple areas and using motorized units and tanks are able to surround many Finnish troops that can not be replaced.

January 18th, 1940- A week has passed and despite tough weather, logistical problems and fierce Finnish resistance the cities of Viipuri, Käkisalmi, and Sortavala have been taken, Soviet forces in other places have puntured the Mannerheim Line and moving west, nearly 220,000 Soviet troops move along the Finnish coast going west, their goal: Helsinki, capital of Finland. Marshal Mannerheim, commander of Finland's Armed Forces informs the government in Helsinki that he could hold the Soviets for another two to three weeks before the Soviets reach Helsinki. The government is shocked but reluctantly orders an evacuation to Sweden. Within days thousands of civilians will cross the border, trying to escape the Red Army and reach safety.

February 7th, 1940- With the Red Army just 70 kilometers away the government of Finland asks for an armistice. Timoshenko from orders from Stalin, agree to it.
Peace talks will begin the next day.

February 8th, 1940- Soviet diplomats arrive in Helsinki to discuss Finland's surrender.

February 10th, 1940- The Soviets state that Finland will do no less than allow the Soviet Union to annex no less than 11% of Finnish territory, particularly the land north of Leningrad and this territory included 30% of Finland's pre-war industry. This includes the cities Viipuri and Käkisalmi. The rest of Finland will be placed under Soviet military administration until such a time a (puppet) government can be formed. Failure to comply to all demands will result in the immediate resumption of the war.

February 13th, 1940- After two days trying to forge a better peace and failing Finland surrenders to the USSR. Much of south-eastern Finland is annexed by the USSR and the rest of the country falls under the dominance of the Soviet Red Army which will enact harsh martial law for the foreseeable future. It is a dark time for Finland but on the bright side Marshal Mannerheim with much of the government is able to escape to Sweden where they form a Finnish Free State. Approximately 290,000 Finns escaped to Sweden before the Red Army closed the border. Tens of thousands of these civilians will form the Finnish Free Army whose goal is to liberate Finland... eventually.

February 15th, 1940- Stalin assembles the Stavka together and informs them that he believes that with most of the German Wehrmacht in western and northern Germany it would be to the Soviet Union’s advantage to launch a preemptive strike on the Nazis. He wants to take central Poland, the Baltic States, and if possible Germany itself to be a buffer between the home of Socialism and the vile western capitalists. He knew the only reason the Nazis wanted the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was to secure their eastern flank until they dealt with the West and then take on the Soviet Union and that Stalin would avoid at all costs, the Motherland shall not come under attack, NEVER!
Stavka begins writing up plans for a new offensive, an offensive against the Germans, called Operation Red Dawn, Zhukov and Timoshenko contribute much to the invasion plans. It will be the largest invasion in Soviet history and despite that Army Restructuring not even close to finished, nor were individual Soviet units on an equal fighting level with similar German units, Stalin believed that if the Soviet Union was to strike first and hard and kept sending men and machines into the fray that the Germans would break and with it Central Europe. After all Quantity has a Quality all on its own. (Deep down he does wish to wait and allow the West to wear down the Germans but he cannot risk either side gaining an upper hand over the other. If the Entente gain the upper hand and invade Germany, somehow, than Central Europe will fall to the capitalists. If Germany won, which seemed highly unlikely but Stalin admits that their military leadership is much better than most of the French and British commands so something could happen than Germany will take out France leaving Britain to stand alone and how long would she last then? he thought. With the west taken care of than Germany could strike east with a highly trained, experienced and motivated army. No, better to strike first and gain as much territory as possible. It would be costly, yes, but it may cost more to wait.
Stalin also wants Sweden and its valuable iron ore reserves. Timoshenko waits at the Finnish-Swedish border with nearly 400,000 troops. Military plans for the invasion of Sweden are very similar to what Timoshenko did in Finland in January.
Many on the Stavka have misgivings but do not voice them, even among themselves. The Purges have shown that disagreeing with Stalin could result in death, or worse… Siberian gulags. Besides the Army Restructuring was going faster than expected and harsh lessons learned in the Polish and Finnish campaigns have bloodied the Army officers, giving them actual combat experience and discipline. The Army was still not the same as it was before the Great Purge, but it was getting closer every day and the Red Army was ever so much more loyal to Stalin and Communism.


March 5th, 1940- Disturbed by Finland's collapse and the Red Army massing on the eastern border and along with housing hundreds of thousands of Finnish refugees many who are called "enemies of the people and the state" by the Soviets, Sweden has no choice but to look for an ally or be assimilated by the Soviets. Norway and Denmark are claiming strict neutrality therefore blocking any attempt to ally with the Entente and receive any defense forces. Seeing no choice, and with the clamoring of many right-wing politicians, Sweden enters into a Defense Pact with Germany. Sweden has not joined the Axis but Sweden's shipment of iron ore which is vital to the German war machine is sold at reduced costs and many more economical benefits are created as part of the defense pact. A German infantry division along with an artillery battalion and a few squadrons of fighters are transported to Stockholm "in the interests of defending Swedish sovereignty and independence against any aggressors". Another reason Sweden joins this pact is that Germany is considered the lesser of two evils so far.
The German forces sent to Sweden are not very powerful but them being there convinces Stalin not to invade. The Red Army was not quite ready to take on the Nazis, not yet but that time was approaching fast. Stalin did want Sweden badly but he smiled. As the Americans say, he thought humorously as he put his cigar in his mouth, there are bigger fish to fry.

March 10th, 1940- In a meeting with the Soviet General Staff, the Stavka announces that the problems and failures experienced during the Finnish Campaign while severe and troublesome were not as problematic as the Soviet invasion of eastern Poland, especially when Timoshenko assumed command. New doctrine, strategies, disciplines (including the lessening of commissariat powers of the commissars in military matters) are fitting in smoothly and spreading to far reaching Army units relatively quickly. Soviet factories are hemorrhaging rifles, tanks, bullets, planes, clothes and other war material.


March 9th, 1940- On orders from Stalin Red Army troops cross the borders of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. This is acceptable as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact secret negotiations but this is months before the Soviets claimed they would do so. This concerns the Germans who are alarmed by the Soviet invasions of these countries so soon. As a precaution Hitler orders the 150,000 troops in Poland to a higher state of readiness. However the planned invasion of Denmark and in turn Norway will continue as planned. Over the French-German border air clashes between the Entente (French and British) air forces and the German Luftwaffe occur over western Germany. Nearly all of these ends in a German victory due to close proximity of Luftwaffe airfields, reinforcements and the AA system continuously hitting the Entente planes even if no German fighters are around; Germans keep a 1.5 K/D against the Entente pilots.
On the ground not much is happening; artillery duels and occasional skirmishes are the norm but other than this the ground combat is practically nil, so much so that the Western Front is called “the Phoney War” or Sitzkrieg. The French and the British, reminiscent of the Great War and the terrible casualties charging fixed positions caused are contented to wait for an opportunity. The Germans will not charge the Maginot; they have other plans in store…
In the United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt calls the Soviet invasions (Finland and the Baltic States) as a “prelude to worse events”. Roosevelt would like to get the United States involved on the side of the Entente but the American public would be against it and the Presidential election is coming up. Instead he is content to sell military armaments to Britain and France for two reasons. He is helping the Entente against the Germans and the selling of arms is predicted to do wonders for the American economy that was still affected by the Depression.

April 2nd-April 4th, 1940- After nearly a month of intense fighting the Soviets have complete control over the Baltic States; the Soviets install puppet governments which will quickly “vote” to join the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Meanwhile Soviet infantry and tanks move to the Lithuanian-East Prussian border. Guerrilla warfare will plague the Soviets for some time despite their harsh countermeasures.



April 7th, 1940- Just two days before Operation Weserübung, the invasion of Denmark and Norway, German intelligence agents in Belorussia and the Ukraine send intelligence dispatches to Berlin. They are alarming: tens of thousands of Soviet troops are marching west to the General Government-Soviet border. Hundreds of tanks and hundreds of planes move westward and supplies on trains chugging west build stockpiles in what was formerly eastern Poland. Marshal of the Soviet Union Semyon Timoshenko arrives in Bialystok, Poland to take command of the Soviet forces there. This is much more than an enlargement of border forces, this was the beginning of forming a massive Soviet force in eastern Poland.
Hitler after intense, heated discussions with the General Staff agrees to cancel the invasion of Denmark and Norway, at least for the time being, as the Wehrmacht is worried about a Soviet invasion from the east. Quietly, not trying to draw attention, German infantry and panzer divisions are transported east. Squadron upon squadron of fighters and bombers travel east also. The plans in to invade Western Europe are also put on indefinite hold. Better to wait and see what the Soviets will do than go half-coked against the Entente and having to look over their (German) should towards the east to see if the Soviets would stab the Reich in the back.

April 20th, 1940- As a birthday gift to Hitler the Entente launch 200 bombers escorted by 100 fighters to bomb Cologne. Immediately after crossing the border German fighter squadrons intercept the large bomber formation. Due to extensive training and a need to protect their homeland German fighter planes shoot down 71 bombers and 33 fighters. The Germans lose 36 fighters. The damage to Cologne was moderate and deemed not worth the cost. Entente Bomber Command cancel all further daylight bombings into Germany until adequate bomber defense formations and fighter plane aerial defense doctrine can be created and implemented. Göring boasts about the Luftwaffe’s dominance in the west. But Wever knows better, the Entente was merely inexperienced and the Luftwaffe had the defenders advantage, motivation, doctrine and fighter superiority but this will change over time. Of this he is certain. Wever visits the Westwall Luftwaffe airfields and talks to fighter pilots of their experiences in the air and how to improve fighter ability. He talks with fighter aces Adolf Galland and Werner Mölders about their experiences.
Hitler rages when he hears of the damage to Cologne, however small, knowing it was an insult to him and the Reich. Hitler orders three squadrons of Junker Ju 89s to do a retaliatory bombing raid. Göring gladly complies.

April 21st, 1940- On the night of April 21st 3 squadrons of Junkers Ju 89s fly west, high in the clouds. The bombers pass over northern France and head to southern England. In the early hours of April 22nd the 36 bombers reached English airspace and were attacked within an hour by British RAF night fighters (specifically modified Hurricanes and Spitfires). Despite this the bombers reach London and drop their high explosives in the general area of the industrial sector causing very light damage. The bombers are harassed their entire return flight. At first it was only the RAF (Royal Air Force) but when the bombers reached French airspace on the return trip to Germany French planes assisted the British planes in firing on the German bombers. Out of the original 36 bombers only 17 reached German airfields, many with varying degrees of damage. Hitler gives all the returning fliers Iron Cross First Class medals and congratulates them on the “Strike against the Jewish controlled British government.” The 19 bombers shot down (11 over England/English Channel) was proof of the effectiveness of radar in aerial detection. The British Radar Chain Home System worked so well that the German radar program which was lagging would receive a huge resurgence in budget and interest. Wever convinces Goering and Hitler that if Germany did not have an effective radar defense system than Germany's cities would suffer catastrophic destruction. Hitler seeing that Germany was essentially blind (A Luftwaffe squadron can not be everywhere at once, especially with how stretched the Luftwaffe was becoming and how thin it might be in the near future) authorizes the German Air Shield Program, modeled on the British Chain Home System but the Air Shield Program is very much in its infancy. Priority will be western and northern Germany and major cities. Colonel-General Ernst Udet is put in command of the Air Shield Program.

April 27th, 1940- A Soviet spy plane enters German controlled airspace. Once spotted by observers a Luftwaffe squadron goes up to meet it. The Soviet plane is heavily damaged and crash lands a few kilometers inside Soviet territory. The Germans yell accusations and the Soviets claim the pilot had faulty navigation and strayed in German territory by accident.

April 29th, 1940- German Military Intelligence notes a significant rise in the buildup of military forces on the Soviet side of the border, opposite of the General Government, which for months had been a moderate trickle was now a massive flow of men, weapons, planes and vehicles into what was eastern Poland.

May 8th, 1940- It has become obvious what the Soviets are planning to do: an invasion of German controlled Poland. There can be no doubt now. After a month of wait and see it is obvious what the Soviets are planning. Many in Berlin are worried what this could mean. Germany lost the First World War and it was two fronts, now it seemed history would repeat itself. The west would be a stalemate and the east would be the war of movement, especially with Poland’s vast flat plains which was ideal for panzers. Some in Berlin however are looking forward to the coming fight with the Communists. The Soviets are the true ideological enemy of National Socialism and a racial enemy of the Aryan race, it is the destiny of the German Reich to defeat and conquer them and make their territory into German lebensraum.
In Paris and London the reactions are mixed. Most want Germany to have a two front war, especially the Communists in the two Entente countries. But there is growing discontent with the war, especially in France. The war is eight months old and the Entente has nothing to show for it. The bombing campaign was cancelled after only a few raids into Germany with unacceptable losses; ground combat was stalemated due to the Maginot and Westwall. The French and British military commands remain halfhearted about the war. While the discontent is minor it is growing albeit glacially slowly. French and British right-wing political parties ranging from the French royalist party Action Française to the British Union of Fascists are struggling in their respected countries. These right wing/fascist parties are a minority and are being suppressed but they are being heard via radio and newspapers. They want to end the war with Germany and help Germany against the Soviet Union and some people are starting to agree. After all National Socialist Germany has private property, religion and international trade while the Soviet Union has none of these, the anathema of Capitalism.


May 11th, 1940- Colonel-General Fedor von Bock arrives in Warsaw to oversee German defenses. German strength in Poland now numbers 250,000 men, 200 panzers (mainly Panzer IIIs with some Panzer IIs and Panzer IVs) and about 600 aircraft of all types. Another 200,000 men are being assembled in Germany with another 200 panzers (about half Panzer III, the other half Panzer IV), a few dozen squadrons or fighters, bombers and dive bombers are pried away from Westwall Air Defense Command but no more can be afforded. Many fear it may not be enough for the Soviet juggernaut.

May 13th, 1940- In the Reich Chancellery Hitler tells his inner circle that he believes war with the Soviets is unavoidable and that the Third Reich and the Soviet Union will be at war within the year. To ensure Germany is ready Hitler commands that the German economy be put on a more war footing. This means stricter fuel and rubber rationing and the beginning of rationing of consumer goods. More factories will switch from consumer production to military production. Germany will within a few weeks be on a War Economy.

*The reason this is significant is that in OTL Hitler never wanted to go on a total war economical mobilization feeling it would make the German people war weary but in the ASoSaF (A Storm of Steel and Fire) timeline it is nearing mid 1940 and Germany has the Entente to the west (which the plans to conquer them similar to OTL have been put on indefinite hold due to the aggressive Soviet presence to the east and the fact that Soviet Union is planning an invasion of the General Government and in turn the German Reich. Hitler cannot ignore this and orders the German economy and industry to increase military production which means the economy had to switch to a War Economy but this is just one step short of Total War Mobilization. So within a few weeks/months Germany will be making more guns, bullets, panzers, planes and the like than it made in OTL even into 1941. Also it should be told that Italy and Japan while allies of Germany have not gone to war against the Entente, which is the same policy they did in OTL. Also the fact that Germany has not conquered Denmark and Norway gives Germany the feeling of being surrounded despite that these nations, as of now, are neutral. This also makes Germany appear less war-mongering than it did in OTL.

May 16th, 1940- First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill, after looking at the map of Europe and more particularly Scandinavia, submits a daring plan to Prime Minister Chamberlain and the Minister of War. While many cite it as risky and potentially political backfiring Churchill insists it is the only way to “strike hard at the Germans”, the plan is studied and edited. It is code named Poseidon and will be activated if the opportunity arises.

May 17th-June 21st, 1940- The situation remains static in Europe: German U-boats continue to prowl the Atlantic trying to starve Britain, German and French artillery duel erratically from across their respective borders and Soviet and German planes are fighting an unofficial air war against each other over the eastern General Government airspace. Japanese, while have had been quiet lately, prepare for another offensive into China.
Italian dictator Benito Mussolini looks at Eastern Europe with worry. He had not gone to war with the Entente, Italy was not ready, but the Soviets would not care if he wanted to stay neutral or not. He sighed than picked up his telephone and talked to the Foreign Ministry and after that some generals of the Army. Within two weeks three Italian divisions would be transported north-east to supplement the German forces there (the order went out on May 19th), it would officially be called a “training exercise”. He stared out the window; the clouds of war were growing he thought wearily.
Through secret negotiations Germany will loan rifles, machine guns, some light artillery and ammunition to the Swedish and Finnish Free Army (this is done on May 23rd, 1940)


Private Elrich Dorff of the German Army looked warily to the east on the night of June 21st, 1940. War between the Reich and the Soviet Union had not been declared… yet, but it is expected within the next few weeks or months. The Wehrmacht forces in the east have been put on the highest alert for the weeks now and the Reich Labor Service, Organization Todt, and local Poles and Jews were building trenches, anti-panzer defenses and barbed wire spread out reminiscent of the Great War, he had seen pictures of what the fronts looked like then.
But would it be enough? The Bolsheviks had taken over Finland and the Baltic States and they had so, so many men. Dorff believed that the average German soldier could take two or three Soviets with him but what about the fourth and the fifth Soviet soldier after that? He laid his head against the dirt wall in fox hole and after a while fell asleep with these questions still haunting him.
Hours later he wakes up to the sound of thunder. No, that wasn’t thunder. That was artillery! He looked over to the east from his foxhole and just a few kilometers away he could see where the border between the Reich and the USSR had been. Now it was alight with fire and due to the light the fire cast off Dorff could see panzers upon panzers with endless lines of infantry. The Red Horde have marched west!
He looked at his pocket watch his father gave him. It was four-oh-seven a.m. on June 22nd, 1940 and now the Third Reich and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics were officially at war. Dorff saw German infantry surge forward to stem the tide and he went with them. He chambered a round in his Kar98k and fired at the advancing Soviets. German panzers from behind him moved forward to engage the Soviet panzers and in the night sky he could see wave upon wave upon wave of planes heading east with German AA fire lighting up the sky with an occasional plane hit and crashing into the Polish ground. Dorff worked the bolt on his rifle and prepared himself for the days ahead…

*Hey everyone this is the end of Chapter 2. I might go through again after I upload it to clean it up a bit more, I’m going to a 4th of July party so I’m busy and then I have work so Chapter 3 will be out as soon as I can get it done. Thank you reading, I hope you enjoyed.

*(8:54 p.m, July 4th) OK everyone I have updated chapter 2. I've changed dates and a lot of information on it, it was almost a complete revise. I think this part is better and a little more realistic (not saying its a 100% accurate/realistic) but a bit more believable. Thank you for the readers that posted information that pointed out the flaws and from their insight have helped me correct/edit this. Again I appreciate constructive criticism and feedback. Even if I post something after multiple readings before hand there are bound to be flaws/inconsistencies. And you guys are like my beta test, help figure what's wrong with it and I will update the chapter as soon as possible which I have now done. Thank you all for your support. This is Chapter 2 Refined Edition.
 
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Tanner151,

This is looking very different, also very interesting; and an excellent read.

One small point if I may. I do not see the British night fighters, Blenheim Mk IF's I assume, doing so much damage to the Ju-89 Squadron/Staffels on their night raid in Apr 1940; their first radar equipped kill, in the OTL, was not until 3/4 Jul 1940 and so interceptions before this were low. And while such a long raid will cause some losses I think 22 losses and 14 damaged, and as a Brit I may like your numbers, is possibly too high.

But a minor point and very much looking forward to the next chapter.

Mind you stand by for when the site 'Experts' start taking notice they may not be so gentlemanly!

Cheers, Vikingtank.
 
It is very unlikely that the Germans would so easily detect Soviet intentions. Deception in the "initial period of war" was essential to Soviet doctrine, on all levels. They would practice entensive deception measures, including false radio nets, camoflage, night marches, etc to disguise their concentration areas. False concentrations would also be used to misdirect German reserves

In any case, Stalin had no intention of invading Nazi Germany, and was unlikely to change his mind anytime soon. Allowing the West to destroy itself in a war of attrition while the Red Army mobilized progressively for war was preferable to an outright invasion which would produce heavy losses. This is particularly true after the military failures in Poland and Finland.

Further, the planning time you give (Beginning in March 1940) is far too late for STAVKA to be prepared by June 1940. MP-41 and subsequent defensive plans, begun in February 1941, weren't predicted to be completed until July 1941, and even then they were poorly done and uncoordinated.
 
Tanner151,

This is looking very different, also very interesting; and an excellent read.

One small point if I may. I do not see the British night fighters, Blenheim Mk IF's I assume, doing so much damage to the Ju-89 Squadron/Staffels on their night raid in Apr 1940; their first radar equipped kill, in the OTL, was not until 3/4 Jul 1940 and so interceptions before this were low. And while such a long raid will cause some losses I think 22 losses and 14 damaged, and as a Brit I may like your numbers, is possibly too high.

But a minor point and very much looking forward to the next chapter.

Mind you stand by for when the site 'Experts' start taking notice they may not be so gentlemanly!

Ok thank you, I will edit the numbers than, I was thinking it was Spitfires and Hurricanes, I will edit it a bit more.
Cheers, Vikingtank.

It is very unlikely that the Germans would so easily detect Soviet intentions. Deception in the "initial period of war" was essential to Soviet doctrine, on all levels. They would practice entensive deception measures, including false radio nets, camoflage, night marches, etc to disguise their concentration areas. False concentrations would also be used to misdirect German reserves

In any case, Stalin had no intention of invading Nazi Germany, and was unlikely to change his mind anytime soon. Allowing the West to destroy itself in a war of attrition while the Red Army mobilized progressively for war was preferable to an outright invasion which would produce heavy losses. This is particularly true after the military failures in Poland and Finland.

Further, the planning time you give (Beginning in March 1940) is far too late for STAVKA to be prepared by June 1940. MP-41 and subsequent defensive plans, begun in February 1941, weren't predicted to be completed until July 1941, and even then they were poorly done and uncoordinated.

You're right, I will have to edit it a little bit. And the reason why I have the Soviets being detected as easily as they were was they more millions of troops and thousands of tanks and planes. It would be hard not to see it. Yes Stalin in OTL did not want to attack the Germans but in this he does because even though the Germans have not, on a large scale, fought the western powers he believes (fictionally) that he can take enough German territory to form a buffer zone. In OTL Stalin was so sure Hitler would never attack first, he was sure he understood Hitler, in this timeline Stalin does not have illusions of trusting Hitler and instead wants to strike first. In OTL Stalin was given reports of massive German forces moving east throughout 1941 but he dismissed this as military training and such.

Thank you both for your points which are very valid and that I did not see this the whole way through, I had to hurry this up due to a 4th of July party i just got back from, I will re-edit it and the new/better version will be up shortly. Thank you.
 
You're right, I will have to edit it a little bit. And the reason why I have the Soviets being detected as easily as they were was they more millions of troops and thousands of tanks and planes. It would be hard not to see it. Yes Stalin in OTL did not want to attack the Germans but in this he does because even though the Germans have not, on a large scale, fought the western powers he believes (fictionally) that he can take enough German territory to form a buffer zone. In OTL Stalin was so sure Hitler would never attack first, he was sure he understood Hitler, in this timeline Stalin does not have illusions of trusting Hitler and instead wants to strike first. In OTL Stalin was given reports of massive German forces moving east throughout 1941 but he dismissed this as military training and such.

Thank you both for your points which are very valid and that I did not see this the whole way through, I had to hurry this up due to a 4th of July party i just got back from, I will re-edit it and the new/better version will be up shortly. Thank you.

Why would Stalin change his foreign policy so radically when the war in the west is going exactly as he wants it; a battle of attrition where both sides pound and wear each other down. I can't see any reason for him to decide to attack Hitler and change his plans so radically when he can just continue to do what he did IOTL; reform the Red Army and use diplomatic and economic pressure to get what he wanted.

Stalin was a skilled manipulator, and knew how to take advantage of weakness. IOTL his plans for Europe were shattered when German crushed France within a month. If that doesn't occur he can continue to expand his sphere in Eastern Europe knowing that Germany doesn't have the ability to disagree with him. He has no reason to appease Germany as he did IOTL, meaning that he can threaten to cut off shipments of grain and oil if Germany refuses to give him the machine tools and equipment they promised, or make other concessions.

My issue here is Stalin taking a radical course of action which IOTL he strived to avoid because he recognized that the Soviet Union wasn't ready for war, and preferred to use means other than war to achieve his ends. Nothing has happened ITTL that would justify such a radical change in his beliefs; indeed, the events ITTL have for the most part confirmed the effectiveness of his strategy.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
Why would Stalin change his foreign policy so radically when the war in the west is going exactly as he wants it; a battle of attrition where both sides pound and wear each other down.

But it isn't really like that, I thought it was just them sitting down and arbitrarily shooting at each other, not a grinding war of attrition.
 
Tanner151 said:
Stalin assembles the Stavka together and informs them t... it would be to the Soviet Union’s advantage to launch a pre-emptive strike on the Nazis.
Considering how incompetently the Red Army performed against the Finns, who were never a match for SU?:eek::eek::eek: I seriously doubt it.
Tanner151 said:
Concerned on how the bombers were spotted so quickly when they reached England
Catseye intercepts were damned difficult & AI wasn't in service yet.
Tanner151 said:
[FDR] is content to sell military armaments to Britain and France
Not really his call. Beyond that, the isolationists won't be thrilled.
Tanner151 said:
It will take some time to figure out what happened
You do know the Germans had radar?
Tanner151 said:
all bombing attacks into England are cancelled.
I don't believe that for a second.:rolleyes: Combat doesn't stop just because the enemy has an unexpected capability.
Tanner151 said:
Warning shots are fired
Between aircraft?:confused::rolleyes: Why do I think that would more closely resemble the climax of "Dawn Patrol"?:rolleyes:
Tanner151 said:
Hitler commands that the German economy be put on a more war footing.
I don't believe that for a second, either.:rolleyes: Hitler waited until, what, 1944 OTL?:rolleyes: Because he wanted the political capital from allowing civilian goods to remain available. I see no reason he'd change that. (And given the abysmal Red Army performance we can expect, he'd be right not to: attacking Germany is a recipe for Sov disaster.)

Meanwhile, in the Far East... Is Japan seeing an opportunity to attack Siberia? If so, why isn't Sorge warning Stalin? If he is, what's Stalin doing about it (if anything)? (Does he need to?)

In addition, BlairWitch is right. :)eek:) All that steel has to come from somewhere. (It might end up coming from U-boat construction, which is good for Britain in the long run.)

Moreover, German industry just did not have the capacity to build large numbers of long-range bombers.

Also, when you're replying to several people, you could just consolidate all the replies....
 
Considering how incompetently the Red Army performed against the Finns, who were never a match for SU?:eek::eek::eek: I seriously doubt it.

Catseye intercepts were damned difficult & AI wasn't in service yet.

Not really his call. Beyond that, the isolationists won't be thrilled.

You do know the Germans had radar?

I don't believe that for a second.:rolleyes: Combat doesn't stop just because the enemy has an unexpected capability.

Between aircraft?:confused::rolleyes: Why do I think that would more closely resemble the climax of "Dawn Patrol"?:rolleyes:

I don't believe that for a second, either.:rolleyes: Hitler waited until, what, 1944 OTL?:rolleyes: Because he wanted the political capital from allowing civilian goods to remain available. I see no reason he'd change that. (And given the abysmal Red Army performance we can expect, he'd be right not to: attacking Germany is a recipe for Sov disaster.)

Meanwhile, in the Far East... Is Japan seeing an opportunity to attack Siberia? If so, why isn't Sorge warning Stalin? If he is, what's Stalin doing about it (if anything)? (Does he need to?)

In addition, BlairWitch is right. :)eek:) All that steel has to come from somewhere. (It might end up coming from U-boat construction, which is good for Britain in the long run.)

Moreover, German industry just did not have the capacity to build large numbers of long-range bombers.

Also, when you're replying to several people, you could just consolidate all the replies....[/Qoute
I have re-edited the chapter. I'm not done yet, I have work, but I hope the changes are better. I will finish the changes tomorrow, thank you for your insight.
 
Considering how incompetently the Red Army performed against the Finns, who were never a match for SU?:eek::eek::eek: I seriously doubt it.

Catseye intercepts were damned difficult & AI wasn't in service yet.

Not really his call. Beyond that, the isolationists won't be thrilled.

You do know the Germans had radar?

I don't believe that for a second.:rolleyes: Combat doesn't stop just because the enemy has an unexpected capability.

Between aircraft?:confused::rolleyes: Why do I think that would more closely resemble the climax of "Dawn Patrol"?:rolleyes:

I don't believe that for a second, either.:rolleyes: Hitler waited until, what, 1944 OTL?:rolleyes: Because he wanted the political capital from allowing civilian goods to remain available. I see no reason he'd change that. (And given the abysmal Red Army performance we can expect, he'd be right not to: attacking Germany is a recipe for Sov disaster.)

Meanwhile, in the Far East... Is Japan seeing an opportunity to attack Siberia? If so, why isn't Sorge warning Stalin? If he is, what's Stalin doing about it (if anything)? (Does he need to?)

In addition, BlairWitch is right. :)eek:) All that steel has to come from somewhere. (It might end up coming from U-boat construction, which is good for Britain in the long run.)

Moreover, German industry just did not have the capacity to build large numbers of long-range bombers.

Also, when you're replying to several people, you could just consolidate all the replies....


I have edited chapter 2, I will finish editing/revising it tomorrow, i have work now, but leave your insight and thoughts on the revised addition.
 
But it isn't really like that, I thought it was just them sitting down and arbitrarily shooting at each other, not a grinding war of attrition.

Most major campaigning traditionally took place in the summer; there are still minor actions in Denmark/Norway. Plus just because no major land offensives are undertaken doesn't necessarily mean that attrition isn't taking place. Artillery duels, aerial battles, etc all take their toll. There's also economic attrition; that is, the war rapidly consumed German resources that couldn't be replaced except from the Soviet Union. The longer Stalin waits, the more Hitler depends upon him, and the more he can demand.

Again, only something significant such as a radical change in the European situation, which hasn't happened ITTL, could convince Stalin to take such a radical course of action which he never even considered IOTL. Stalin was evil, not an idiot, and recognized that economic and diplomatic pressure was just as effective as military force.
 
Last edited:

katchen

Banned
Considering how incompetently the Red Army performed against the Finns, who were never a match for SU?:eek::eek::eek: I seriously doubt it.

Catseye intercepts were damned difficult & AI wasn't in service yet.

Not really his call. Beyond that, the isolationists won't be thrilled.

You do know the Germans had radar?

I don't believe that for a second.:rolleyes: Combat doesn't stop just because the enemy has an unexpected capability.

Between aircraft?:confused::rolleyes: Why do I think that would more closely resemble the climax of "Dawn Patrol"?:rolleyes:

I don't believe that for a second, either.:rolleyes: Hitler waited until, what, 1944 OTL?:rolleyes: Because he wanted the political capital from allowing civilian goods to remain available. I see no reason he'd change that. (And given the abysmal Red Army performance we can expect, he'd be right not to: attacking Germany is a recipe for Sov disaster.)

Meanwhile, in the Far East... Is Japan seeing an opportunity to attack Siberia? If so, why isn't Sorge warning Stalin? If he is, what's Stalin doing about it (if anything)? (Does he need to?)

In addition, BlairWitch is right. :)eek:) All that steel has to come from somewhere. (It might end up coming from U-boat construction, which is good for Britain in the long run.)

Moreover, German industry just did not have the capacity to build large numbers of long-range bombers.

Also, when you're replying to several people, you could just consolidate all the replies....

You're right that all that steel has to come from somewhere. And unless the Russians seize Kiruna and Galliavare in a hurry, a lot of that steel is going to come from Sweden.
 
Construction of the west wall will mean less tanks and ships for the Germans as their bunker designs required enormous amounts of steel. FYI manstein via a number of sources saw full designs and photos of maginot bunkers in otl which spurred not only his desire to copy it directly when he worked for foster in the engineering dept but also spurred him to get the stuggs built overcome them

The reason the Germans have enough steel for the Westwall on the French/Belgian-German border is that the rest of the German border fortifications in the west are essentially ignored. And the Westwall is not only more concentrated but also started a full year earlier than in OTL. I hope this answer helped you
 
Even with your edits Stalin's change in foreign policy occurs with no realistic explanation. Such a radical shift would require an equally radical change in events from OTL, which simply hasn't happened here.
 
April 20th, 1940- As a birthday gift to Hitler the Entente launch 200 bombers escorted by 100 fighters to bomb Cologne. Immediately after crossing the border German fighter squadrons intercept the large bomber formation. Due to extensive training and a need to protect their homeland German fighter planes shoot down 71 bombers and 33 fighters. The Germans lose 36 fighters. The damage to Cologne was moderate and deemed not worth the cost. Entente Bomber Command cancel all further daylight bombings into Germany until adequate bomber defense formations and fighter plane aerial defense doctrine can be created and implemented. Göring boasts about the Luftwaffe’s dominance in the west. But Wever knows better, the Entente was merely inexperienced and the Luftwaffe had the defenders advantage, motivation, doctrine and fighter superiority but this will change over time. Of this he is certain. Wever visits the Westwall Luftwaffe airfields and talks to fighter pilots of their experiences in the air and how to improve fighter ability. He talks with fighter aces Adolf Galland and Werner Mölders about their experiences.
Hitler rages when he hears of the damage to Cologne, however small, knowing it was an insult to him and the Reich. Hitler orders three squadrons of Junker Ju 89s to do a retaliatory bombing raid. Göring gladly complies.

April 21st, 1940- On the night of April 21st 3 squadrons of Junkers Ju 89s fly west, high in the clouds. The bombers pass over northern France and head to southern England. In the early hours of April 22nd the 36 bombers reached English airspace and were attacked within an hour by British RAF night fighters (specifically modified Hurricanes and Spitfires). Despite this the bombers reach London and drop their high explosives in the general area of the industrial sector causing very light damage. The bombers are harassed their entire return flight. At first it was only the RAF (Royal Air Force) but when the bombers reached French airspace on the return trip to Germany French planes assisted the British planes in firing on the German bombers. Out of the original 36 bombers only 17 reached German airfields, many with varying degrees of damage. Hitler gives all the returning fliers Iron Cross First Class medals and congratulates them on the “Strike against the Jewish controlled British government.” The 19 bombers shot down (11 over England/English Channel) was proof of the effectiveness of radar in aerial detection. The British Radar Chain Home System worked so well that the German radar program which was lagging would receive a huge resurgence in budget and interest. Wever convinces Goering and Hitler that if Germany did not have an effective radar defense system than Germany's cities would suffer catastrophic destruction. Hitler seeing that Germany was essentially blind (A Luftwaffe squadron can not be everywhere at once, especially with how stretched the Luftwaffe was becoming and how thin it might be in the near future) authorizes the German Air Shield Program, modeled on the British Chain Home System but the Air Shield Program is very much in its infancy. Priority will be western and northern Germany and major cities. Colonel-General Ernst Udet is put in command of the Air Shield Program.

Just a few pointers …

For the entente raid on 20th there are several points …

The first thing to note is that any raid that includes a fighter escort on German targets would have to come from the Lorraine region of France unless the Entente are not concerned about flying over neutral air space (the Benelux countries).

In April 1940 none of the French or British fighters were a match for the BF109 and wouldn’t be improved until after the Battle of France and the experiences gained during that campaign. The closest you would get is the Spitfire however like the Bf109 it lacked in range and so would have been at its limit of endurance. The most likely candidate would be the French Morane-Saulnier M.S.406, which was a good sturdy fighter by all accounts and the most numerous French type at this time. It did however lack the speed manoeuvrability and reliable firepower of the German plane but had a good range. That doesn’t mean to say the losses would be high, just that they would be higher than a similar raid conducted in late 1940 using fighters modified through lessons learned in OTL.

As the air base and fighters would most likely be French I would expect the bomber force to be French as well, it seems sensible that if for no other reasons than good communication and planning that the whole thing is a French affair. I would suggest that the predominant bomber types would be the Bloch MB.210 (1,600kg bomb load) and the Potez 633 (400kg bomb load).

It seems to me that the fighter force is a little on the low side, during the BoB the Luftwaffe would regularly put two to three times the number of fighters into the air as they would bombers. However the Luftwaffe did this for reasons other than bomber protection, they also wanted to inflict maximum damage on fighter command by drawing the Spitfires and Hurricanes into the air with formations of bombers and then pouncing from above. I would say that at least an equal number of fighters to bombers would be required.

For the Luftwaffe raid on 21st …

It seems a bit impractical to use the Ju 89 on a raid of this nature, the Ju 89 was designed as a long range bomber and as such carried a smaller bomb load than the more widely available He111 which could reach London easily. In fact the range I have seen for the Ju 89 is only marginally further at 1242 miles than the He111 and is actually not as far as the Ju 88. Admittedly the specs I have seen for the Ju 89 are for an earlier version of the bomber and with further development these stats might have been greatly improved.

I would like to throw in another aircraft into the mix that is if you would like to improve the Luftwaffe’s capability … if you don’t then please ignore. The Ju 86 might have served better in the skies above England and France better than the Ju 89. By January 1940 the Ju 86P had been developed that could fly higher than any British or French fighters of the time. By Feb 1940 it was flying at a height of 39,000ft as opposed to the 34,000 of the Hurricane and the 32,000 of the Spitfire. The downside is that to reach these heights it was limited to a 1,000kg payload. But maybe it is a small price to pay for raids at night by bombers that can’t be seen by the naked eye, are difficult to detect by radar, are outside the range of AA fire and can’t be attacked by fighters because they are too high. The ultimate version, the Ju 86R could fly at up to 43,000ft with 1,000kg and in unloaded tests went in excess of 50,000ft.

In reality the British had estimated in 1939 that the Luftwaffe possessed 1,600 bombers capable of reaching targets in England, this figure was actually an overestimate and the real figure was just over 1,000 serviceable with 800 of those being the He111 capable of carrying a 2,000kg bomb load. Without the battle of France and the invasion of all of the other Western countries it is highly likely that these figures would have grown by April 1940.

It is very doubtful that the Luftwaffe would risk flying over France for such a raid for various reasons, the first of which is that the range difference of travelling from northern Germany via the sea and attacking up the Thames Estuary is comparable in to travelling from southern Germany across northern France, over the Channel and then England. In addition the chances of detection, fighter interception and anti-aircraft fire are much higher if you fly over hostile territory than if you fly over the sea. If they fly from northern Germany the chances are they will get to within a few miles of the English coast before they are seen as a real threat, German aircraft were flying up and down the East Coast of England all the time without serious attempt at interception throughout most of 1940. It was only when they looked as if they might heading inland that fighter command really paid attention at night.

As for the Home Chain it was just one part of a defence system that worked well enough during the day but not at night. During the day the radar would detect the raid approaching and fighters were either put on standby or scrambled to predetermined patrol locations. As the bomber formation got closer to land the tracking of the raid was passed to the Observer Corp as the radar did not work over land, this would take a little while longer to develop. Using the information provided by the Observer Corp the Sector Controllers would vector the relevant fighter squadrons to intercept the bomber formations. Once the Squadron Leader sighted the formation he would take control of all the other fighters with him. As you can see the interception of bombers was not down to the Chain Home stations, whose only role at this stage of the war was early warning, but down to visual sighting of the formation, first by the Observer Corp and then the pilots themselves. At night the only part of the system that works effectively is the Chain Home who are restricted to letting people know “there are some aircraft coming, they are ‘X’ miles from the coast at ‘Y’ thousand feet and it looks like there are more than 10 or 20. Once overland the only way of knowing where they are is by sound, you can hear roughly where they are.

The first large night time raid was on 18/19 June by a force of 70 He111 flying below 10,000ft on a bright moonlit night. These tactics were chosen because they would give bomber crews the best chance of hitting their targets. They were also ideal for the night fighter patrols as they managed to shoot down 5 bombers with a further bomber crashing on its return to Europe. The Germans tried this once more on 26th June with two more losses to fighter patrols and AA fire. After this the Germans sacrificed accuracy for crew survival and flew their raids at heights above 10,000ft and for the next few weeks at least it was rare the RAF even saw a bomber at night, let alone shoot down more than one at a time.

As someone has already stated the German radar system was more advanced than the British system in many respects. Whilst the British had concentrated on aerial early warning the Germans had developed a system that was better at detecting targets at ground/sea level. In Britain the main users of radar were the RAF, in Germany the main users were the Kriegsmarine so their system was again more restricted to looking out to sea. From comments I have seen from the likes of Adolf Galland and others they were actually mystified that the British controlled their fighters all the way into battle and they didn’t like it. They saw themselves as sky warriors in control of their own destiny, I’m not sure they would have liked a rigid control system such as that used by the British. Plus it would take a lot more time and development to get a radar system that worked over land, I don’t think the Germans would have gone for it. Better to rely on spotters and standing patrols … that is just my thoughts.
 
Just a few pointers …

For the entente raid on 20th there are several points …

The first thing to note is that any raid that includes a fighter escort on German targets would have to come from the Lorraine region of France unless the Entente are not concerned about flying over neutral air space (the Benelux countries).

In April 1940 none of the French or British fighters were a match for the BF109 and wouldn’t be improved until after the Battle of France and the experiences gained during that campaign. The closest you would get is the Spitfire however like the Bf109 it lacked in range and so would have been at its limit of endurance. The most likely candidate would be the French Morane-Saulnier M.S.406, which was a good sturdy fighter by all accounts and the most numerous French type at this time. It did however lack the speed manoeuvrability and reliable firepower of the German plane but had a good range. That doesn’t mean to say the losses would be high, just that they would be higher than a similar raid conducted in late 1940 using fighters modified through lessons learned in OTL.

As the air base and fighters would most likely be French I would expect the bomber force to be French as well, it seems sensible that if for no other reasons than good communication and planning that the whole thing is a French affair. I would suggest that the predominant bomber types would be the Bloch MB.210 (1,600kg bomb load) and the Potez 633 (400kg bomb load).

It seems to me that the fighter force is a little on the low side, during the BoB the Luftwaffe would regularly put two to three times the number of fighters into the air as they would bombers. However the Luftwaffe did this for reasons other than bomber protection, they also wanted to inflict maximum damage on fighter command by drawing the Spitfires and Hurricanes into the air with formations of bombers and then pouncing from above. I would say that at least an equal number of fighters to bombers would be required.

For the Luftwaffe raid on 21st …

It seems a bit impractical to use the Ju 89 on a raid of this nature, the Ju 89 was designed as a long range bomber and as such carried a smaller bomb load than the more widely available He111 which could reach London easily. In fact the range I have seen for the Ju 89 is only marginally further at 1242 miles than the He111 and is actually not as far as the Ju 88. Admittedly the specs I have seen for the Ju 89 are for an earlier version of the bomber and with further development these stats might have been greatly improved.

I would like to throw in another aircraft into the mix that is if you would like to improve the Luftwaffe’s capability … if you don’t then please ignore. The Ju 86 might have served better in the skies above England and France better than the Ju 89. By January 1940 the Ju 86P had been developed that could fly higher than any British or French fighters of the time. By Feb 1940 it was flying at a height of 39,000ft as opposed to the 34,000 of the Hurricane and the 32,000 of the Spitfire. The downside is that to reach these heights it was limited to a 1,000kg payload. But maybe it is a small price to pay for raids at night by bombers that can’t be seen by the naked eye, are difficult to detect by radar, are outside the range of AA fire and can’t be attacked by fighters because they are too high. The ultimate version, the Ju 86R could fly at up to 43,000ft with 1,000kg and in unloaded tests went in excess of 50,000ft.

In reality the British had estimated in 1939 that the Luftwaffe possessed 1,600 bombers capable of reaching targets in England, this figure was actually an overestimate and the real figure was just over 1,000 serviceable with 800 of those being the He111 capable of carrying a 2,000kg bomb load. Without the battle of France and the invasion of all of the other Western countries it is highly likely that these figures would have grown by April 1940.

It is very doubtful that the Luftwaffe would risk flying over France for such a raid for various reasons, the first of which is that the range difference of travelling from northern Germany via the sea and attacking up the Thames Estuary is comparable in to travelling from southern Germany across northern France, over the Channel and then England. In addition the chances of detection, fighter interception and anti-aircraft fire are much higher if you fly over hostile territory than if you fly over the sea. If they fly from northern Germany the chances are they will get to within a few miles of the English coast before they are seen as a real threat, German aircraft were flying up and down the East Coast of England all the time without serious attempt at interception throughout most of 1940. It was only when they looked as if they might heading inland that fighter command really paid attention at night.

As for the Home Chain it was just one part of a defence system that worked well enough during the day but not at night. During the day the radar would detect the raid approaching and fighters were either put on standby or scrambled to predetermined patrol locations. As the bomber formation got closer to land the tracking of the raid was passed to the Observer Corp as the radar did not work over land, this would take a little while longer to develop. Using the information provided by the Observer Corp the Sector Controllers would vector the relevant fighter squadrons to intercept the bomber formations. Once the Squadron Leader sighted the formation he would take control of all the other fighters with him. As you can see the interception of bombers was not down to the Chain Home stations, whose only role at this stage of the war was early warning, but down to visual sighting of the formation, first by the Observer Corp and then the pilots themselves. At night the only part of the system that works effectively is the Chain Home who are restricted to letting people know “there are some aircraft coming, they are ‘X’ miles from the coast at ‘Y’ thousand feet and it looks like there are more than 10 or 20. Once overland the only way of knowing where they are is by sound, you can hear roughly where they are.

The first large night time raid was on 18/19 June by a force of 70 He111 flying below 10,000ft on a bright moonlit night. These tactics were chosen because they would give bomber crews the best chance of hitting their targets. They were also ideal for the night fighter patrols as they managed to shoot down 5 bombers with a further bomber crashing on its return to Europe. The Germans tried this once more on 26th June with two more losses to fighter patrols and AA fire. After this the Germans sacrificed accuracy for crew survival and flew their raids at heights above 10,000ft and for the next few weeks at least it was rare the RAF even saw a bomber at night, let alone shoot down more than one at a time.

As someone has already stated the German radar system was more advanced than the British system in many respects. Whilst the British had concentrated on aerial early warning the Germans had developed a system that was better at detecting targets at ground/sea level. In Britain the main users of radar were the RAF, in Germany the main users were the Kriegsmarine so their system was again more restricted to looking out to sea. From comments I have seen from the likes of Adolf Galland and others they were actually mystified that the British controlled their fighters all the way into battle and they didn’t like it. They saw themselves as sky warriors in control of their own destiny, I’m not sure they would have liked a rigid control system such as that used by the British. Plus it would take a lot more time and development to get a radar system that worked over land, I don’t think the Germans would have gone for it. Better to rely on spotters and standing patrols … that is just my thoughts.

Very true, thank you for the input. The crossing of northern France was stretching things yes, but I had wanted to show how ineffective German bombing of England is and the value of a radar system, now the radar system won't be as integrated, centralized as the Chain Home System but will act as early warning etc. The Junker Ju 89 bomber that we have as of mid 1940 is a more refined/advanced version of the prototype made some years ago. The Germans had radar but it wasn't exactly refined or mass produced, Hitler believed due to that since it did not benefit military offensives that it was useless. And with Udet taking over the Air Shield Program he will not commit suicide in 1941 as he did in OTL, this job while stressful, is not near as much stressful as the job he held in OTL 1941. I do appreciate the feedback and I understand that some of what I have put down and will put down in the future will be unrealistic and true but not by a huge factor. I'm not trying to do a 100% accurate military/political/industrial analysis of this WW2 but rather a version I have not seen before.

Even with your edits Stalin's change in foreign policy occurs with no realistic explanation. Such a radical shift would require an equally radical change in events from OTL, which simply hasn't happened here.

Yeah Stalin was intelligent, he was cruel and very suspicious of those around him, but intelligent, coldly calculating is pretty accurate. ITTL with the success over Finland and lack of actual warfare in the west Stalin thinks now is the time, despite his own misgivings and the poor state of the Red Army, to strike hard and true before the Germans can gain an advantage over the west. I understand this isn't a 100% accurate, that is my bad for not thinking it all the way through, I thought of this scenario without all the major background what ifs and technical info. I apologize for that and if you are a person that needs everything to be a 100% factual or even 90% factual/realistic then i'm going to tell you that will not happen all the time here, I am sorry but I want to tell my story my way, but your insight has helped me clean up/edit my chapters which while not as accurate as you wish are much better than the previous versions at least. Are you at least enjoying it despite the many faults?
 
Just a few pointers …

For the entente raid on 20th there are several points …

The first thing to note is that any raid that includes a fighter escort on German targets would have to come from the Lorraine region of France unless the Entente are not concerned about flying over neutral air space (the Benelux countries).

In April 1940 none of the French or British fighters were a match for the BF109 and wouldn’t be improved until after the Battle of France and the experiences gained during that campaign. The closest you would get is the Spitfire however like the Bf109 it lacked in range and so would have been at its limit of endurance. The most likely candidate would be the French Morane-Saulnier M.S.406, which was a good sturdy fighter by all accounts and the most numerous French type at this time. It did however lack the speed manoeuvrability and reliable firepower of the German plane but had a good range. That doesn’t mean to say the losses would be high, just that they would be higher than a similar raid conducted in late 1940 using fighters modified through lessons learned in OTL.

The reason there are so few fighters compared to bombers is that France has to have fighter coverage over its own territories which draws importance, than add the fact that the French have a decent sized colonial empire in north africa where they are watching Italy's Libya with a wary eye (more air squadrons go there) that when they launched only so many fighters were available at the time. I will update Entente losses, I had a higher fighter loss and bomber loss but not enough German losses and I did not want to seem bias for a German military victory so I lowered the numbers a bit. Will update soon though. Also it was an Anglo-French raid (bombers) but the fighters were French.
Thanks for feedback
 
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