The Malouines War: France in the Falklands Redux

Part of Post 70.

Unfortunately, Colbert wasn't available IOTL. This is a quote from Post 310 of the Secret Projects thread.
Part of Post 70 again.

The Secret Projects thread also included some posts about the deployment of the MN in 1982 and this is part of Post 317 about where the French LSDs and LSTs were IOTL.
Writers artistic license. ITTL Colbert is available (maybe funds for her docking weren't available, consequence of the price of the force de dissuasion) and the French have decided to place a greater focus on the Atlantic and Med (in support of NATO) then their distant far flung pacific holdings in which the various avisos or patrol frigates can handle.
Would they be able to operate from the OTL Stanley airport? If they could that would be more important than being able to operate from 25 De Mayo.
Port Stanley (Port St Louis) airport is a Former French airforce base ittl. So full blown runway and aviation facilities to fly Argentine Daggers and Super Buccaneers off of.
 
Writers artistic license. ITTL Colbert is available (maybe funds for her docking weren't available, consequence of the price of the force de dissuasion) and the French have decided to place a greater focus on the Atlantic and Med (in support of NATO) then their distant far flung pacific holdings in which the various avisos or patrol frigates can handle.
In that case use your artistic licence to keep the SS France in service so she can be used as a troopship as an analogue of the QE2 and Canberra. IOTL she was laid up in 1974 and converted to the cruise liner SS Norway 1979-80.
 
A question- what's the population of French Malouines? Because if something like British Falklands (about 3000 people) then I think that 100 gendarmes to police the sheep farmers and fishermen is way too much. 10 or 20 is more likely. Also, instead of having French Naval Fusiliers (they mostly serve as naval base protection force), the more likely is to have either Legionnaires (not so likely, not important enough to send them there) or Troupes de Marine (French Army Marines/former colonial troops).
Population is a little more so around 5-7000. The island has been inhabited by French citizens ever since it was colonized. As for the military personnel, like I said before, I am using @Palantir 's advice.
Whether the Iles Malouines and its dependencies would have been an overseas département or an overseas territory was discussed in the Secret Projects thread. FWIW the OTL the Colony of the Falkland Islands wasn't self-governing and its population in 1982 was 1,800 not about 3,000 (source the Encyclopaedia Britannica Book of the Year 1982). A population of 5,000 to 7,000 is about twice what @Mister Mister wrote and three-to-four times the colony's actual population in 1982.

However, IOTL the overseas département with the smallest population in 1982 was Saint Pierre and Miquelon (1982 estimate 6,300 according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica Book of the Year 1982) so if Les Iles Malouines did have a population of 5,000 to 7,000 ITTL it would probably have been an overseas département rather than an overseas territory.

The OTL Falkland Islands have a volunteer reserve defence force called the Falkland Islands Defence Force (FIDF) which was equivalent to the Territorial Army and according to its Wikipedia article.
On 1 April 1982, alongside the Royal Marines party, the FIDF was mobilised to defend the Islands from the Argentine invasion. Many of its members lived in remote settlements so given the limited notice of its approximately 120 men some 32 turned out.
My guess is that it would have had about 350 to 500 men if the Malouines had a population of 5,000 to 7,000.

However, as France had conscription in 1982 (the UK didn't) and because the Malouines were probably an overseas département the male islanders would have had to do French military service. Therefore, its likely that a large proportion of the male population would have served in the French armed forces (mainly the army) and some of them would have been in the reserves in April 1982.

According to "The World's Armies" edited by Chris Chant and published in 1979 the overseas deployments of the French Army were as follows:
Germany: 34,000; 2 mechanised divisions.​
Berlin: 2,000; 1 light armoured regiment, 1 mechanised infantry regiment.​
Djibouti: 4,000; 2 infantry regiments, 1 artillery regiment, 2 squadrons light tanks.​
Senegal: 1,000 (all services).​
Ivory Coast: 400.​
Gabon: 450.​
Lebanon (UNIFIL): 1,244; 1 battalion and logistical units.​
Chad: 1,500.​

Overseas Commands: There are four overseas commands (Antilles-Guyana, South Indian Ocean, New Caledonia, Polynesia), and two naval commands (ALINDIEN, ALPACI). Some 19,000 from all services are deployed overseas (numbers can vary according to local circumstances); equipment includes: 130 AFV, 36 helicopters, 9 frigates, 2 FPB, 1 tender ship, 2 light transport ships, 12 combat and 15 transport aircraft.​
 
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Writers artistic license. ITTL Colbert is available (maybe funds for her docking weren't available, consequence of the price of the force de dissuasion) and the French have decided to place a greater focus on the Atlantic and Med (in support of NATO) then their distant far flung pacific holdings in which the various avisos or patrol frigates can handle.
In the Secret Projects thread it was suggested that the MN may have been unable to reach the Malouines because it didn't have as many tankers as the RN and the French merchant marine was (IIRC) about half the size of the British merchant marine. Therefore, I also suggest that you use your artistic licence to address that issue too.
 
After reflection, I think that Senegal to consolidate the fleet would be more logical and simpler than the Caribbean or Guyana. The Dakar naval base at the time was much better equipped and could accommodate the squadron without problem..

Dakar (Sénégal) - Falklands : 8500/9000 km.
 
After reflection, I think that Senegal to consolidate the fleet would be more logical and simpler than the Caribbean or Guyana. The Dakar naval base at the time was much better equipped and could accommodate the squadron without problem..

Dakar (Sénégal) - Falklands : 8500/9000 km.
FWIW that was the conclusion in the Secret Projects thread.
 
A question- what's the population of French Malouines? Because if something like British Falklands (about 3000 people) then I think that 100 gendarmes to police the sheep farmers and fishermen is way too much. 10 or 20 is more likely. Also, instead of having French Naval Fusiliers (they mostly serve as naval base protection force), the more likely is to have either Legionnaires (not so likely, not important enough to send them there) or Troupes de Marine (French Army Marines/former colonial troops ).
Population is a little more so around 5-7000. The island has been inhabited by French citizens ever since it was colonized. As for the military personnel, like I said before, I am using @Palantir 's advice.
The other source I have on the French Army in circa 1982 is "World Armies" edited by John Keegan and published in 1979.

All it says about the French Army overseas is this:
Army Units in Overseas Commands

These comprise, in the Ivory Coast, one mixed regiment; in Senegal, one mixed regiment; in Gabon, a parachute company; in Chad, one mixed regiment; in Martinique, one regiment; in the Pacific, one foreign legion and one mixed regiment; in Djibouti, one foreign legion and one mixed regiment; in Réunion, two infantry regiments.
The Troupes de Marine mentioned by @Mister Mister were also mentioned by Keegan. According to him there were 19 regiments of Infanterie de Marine, some still locally recruited (e.g. in the Pacific and the West Indies). Maybe there was a 20th regiment of Intanterie de Marine recruited from the population of the Malouines ITTL.
 
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Mind you, at the time, France had a conscription. So, it makes sense that about maybe a platoon strength of islanders be in uniform, at islands, at the time... Commanded by proffesional officer and a few NCOs from France. Also, in that case, the number of reservists in the islands might be about a battalion's strength.
 
Mind you, at the time, France had a conscription. So, it makes sense that about maybe a platoon strength of islanders be in uniform, at islands, at the time... Commanded by proffesional officer and a few NCOs from France. Also, in that case, the number of reservists in the islands might be about a battalion's strength.
Part of Post 103.
However, as France had conscription in 1982 (the UK didn't) and because the Malouines were probably an overseas département the male islanders would have had to do French military service. Therefore, its likely that a large proportion of the male population would have served in the French armed forces (mainly the army) and some of them would have been in the reserves in April 1982.
Another part of Post 103.
The OTL Falkland Islands have a volunteer reserve defence force called the Falkland Islands Defence Force (FIDF) which was equivalent to the Territorial Army and according to its Wikipedia article.
"On 1 April 1982, alongside the Royal Marines party, the FIDF was mobilised to defend the Islands from the Argentine invasion. Many of its members lived in remote settlements so given the limited notice of its approximately 120 men some 32 turned out."
My guess is that it would have had about 350 to 500 men if the Malouines had a population of 5,000 to 7,000.
Post 66.
A question- what's the population of French Malouines? Because if something like British Falklands (about 3000 people) then I think that 100 gendarmes to police the sheep farmers and fishermen is way too much. 10 or 20 is more likely. Also, instead of having French Naval Fusiliers (they mostly serve as naval base protection force), the more likely is to have either Legionnaires ( not so likely, not important enough to send them there ) or Troupes de Marine (French Army Marines/former colonial troops).
According to its Wikipedia article the OTL Royal Falkland Islands Police currently has 35 personnel consisting of 20 regular officers, 8 reserve officers (equivalent to British special constables, but paid) and 7 civilian support staff. However, it was called the Falkland Islands Police Force until 1992 when it was given the honorific title "Royal".
In addition to the already mentioned Falkland Islands Defence Force there was also a regular garrison of 68 Royal Marines and 11 Royal Navy hydrographers on 1st April 1982 which was more than usual because the existing garrison was in the process of being relieved.
 
The Troupes de Marine mentioned by @Mister Mister were also mentioned by Keegan. According to him there were 19 regiments of Infanterie de Marine, some still locally recruited (e.g. in the Pacific and the West Indies). Maybe there was a 20th regiment of Intanterie de Marine recruited from the population of the Malouines ITTL.
It feels like a stretch to have an Infanterie de Marine regiment on the islands since St-Pierre-et-Miquelon never had one OTL.
 
It feels like a stretch to have an Infanterie de Marine regiment on the islands since St-Pierre-et-Miquelon never had one OTL.
OTOH St-Pierre-et-Miquelon wasn't claimed by Canada IOTL or at least AFAIK they weren't. However, the Malouines were claimed by Argentina ITTL.

That might not be 100% true. Canada might have had contingency plans to invade St-Pierre-et-Miquelon before the Entente Cordiale. Plus IIRC from research I did for Vichy joins the Axis threads Canada did think of occupying St-Pierre-et-Miquelon before the territory joined Free France.

Due to the Malouines small population it is a stretch to have an active Infanterie de Marine regiment at full strength, but maybe it could have had the a hybrid regiment which consisted of an active company (whose personnel would mainly be conscripts) and two or three reserve companies of ex-conscripts. I've already mentioned the OTL Falklands Island Defence Force, which had about 120 men (all volunteers) in 1982 when the Islands had a population of 1,800 and as I wrote in an earlier post.
My guess is that it would have had about 350 to 500 men if the Malouines had a population of 5,000 to 7,000.
 
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It feels like a stretch to have an Infanterie de Marine regiment on the islands since St-Pierre-et-Miquelon never had one OTL.
PS.

Did you mean an Infanterie de Marine regiment whose personnel were locally recruited? Which is what I meant.
Or.​
An Infanterie de Marine regiment whose personnel were recruited from the whole of France?
Or​
Both?
 
OTOH St-Pierre-et-Miquelon wasn't claimed by Canada IOTL or at least AFAIK they wasn't. However, the Malouines were claimed by Argentina ITTL.

That might not be 100% true. Canada might have had contingency plans to invade St-Pierre-et-Miquelon before the Entente Cordiale. Plus IIRC from research I did for Vichy joins the Axis threads Canada did think of occupying St-Pierre-et-Miquelon before the territory joined Free France.
Well, Newfoundland was not part of Canada before the Entente Cordiale, but only in 1949. ;)
But, yes Canada and the British Empire hadn't made any claims to the islands since the XVIIIth century.

PS.

Did you mean an Infanterie de Marine regiment whose personnel were locally recruited? Which is what I meant.
Or.​
An Infanterie de Marine regiment whose personnel were recruited from the whole of France?
Or​
Both?
Even when a regiment has its personnel locally recruited, it was not done fully. Right now, about half of the personnel come from Europe in the rotating companies (with a deployment on site of six months to a year), and I'm pretty sure it was already the case at the time.

Looking at it, I think it can be something similar (but more locally recruited) to the Foreign Legion Detachment in Mayotte (Détachement de Légion étrangère de Mayotte, DLEM) which consists of a command & support company and a combat company made of rotating elements, plus some sappers groups.
Here, you will have a regiment with only two active companies, the command & support company and the first company, made from a mix of locally recruited , long term deployments and rotating personnel. I suppose the regiment can have two to three combat reserve companies (depending on the population effectivelly choosen).

The question then, is does the French have the time to call up the reserves before the invasion ?
 

Nick P

Donor
Why not use the islands as a remote training area for the Foreign Legion with associated live fire ranges?
Ideal for practising those long distance survival hikes over rough terrain with a bit of actual shooting without running into too many locals.

Then in 1982 there can be a troop on exercise who might take time to get back to Port St Louis and not be ready to fight off the invaders.
 
IMHO, the French would have on the islands maybe one Infantry de Marine company (personel from France) with one platoon extra of local men serving their conscription time. Plus about 300-500 local reservists. Let's add there about 30-40 gendarmes...

About mobilisation, it depends about how good French intelligence is, if they know about half a day before that invasion is coming, they might suceed to mobilise about half of people, mostly those living around Port St. Louis.
 
Well, Newfoundland was not part of Canada before the Entente Cordiale, but only in 1949. ;)
But, yes Canada and the British Empire hadn't made any claims to the islands since the XVIIIth century.
I'm being blond (1). Are you saying that Newfoundland claimed St-Pierre-et-Miquelon?
Even when a regiment has its personnel locally recruited, it was not done fully. Right now, about half of the personnel come from Europe in the rotating companies (with a deployment on site of six months to a year), and I'm pretty sure it was already the case at the time.
I'm being blond (2). Are you referring to the locally recruited regiments in the Pacific & West Indies IOTL?
Looking at it, I think it can be something similar (but more locally recruited) to the Foreign Legion Detachment in Mayotte (Détachement de Légion étrangère de Mayotte, DLEM) which consists of a command & support company and a combat company made of rotating elements, plus some sappers groups.

Here, you will have a regiment with only two active companies, the command & support company and the first company, made from a mix of locally recruited , long term deployments and rotating personnel. I suppose the regiment can have two to three combat reserve companies (depending on the population effectively chosen).
I agree. Could one of the reserve companies be an artillery battery with two troops? One equipped with coast defence guns and the other with the French MANPAD of the era.

IOTL the Gibraltar Regiment (Gibraltar's equivalent to the FIDF) had 256 personnel (of whom 45 were regular soldiers) in the middle 1980s, with a headquarters until, an infantry company and an artillery battery. The latter had a field troop equipped with the 105mm Light Gun and an air defence troop equipped with the Blowpipe MANPAD. The source for that is the "Encyclopaedia of the Modern British Army, 3rd Edition" by Terry Gander, published in October 1986.
The question then, is does the French have the time to call up the reserves before the invasion ?
According to the Wikipedia article about a quarter of the FIDF turned out.
Many of its members lived in remote settlements so given the limited notice of its approximately 120 men some 32 turned out.
So 90 to 125 would turn out ITTL if the Islands have a population of 5,000 to 7,000 instead of 1,800.

But we mustn't make the garrison to be too strong, or the Argentines wouldn't have invaded in the first place, defeating the object of the thread.
 
IMHO, the French would have on the islands maybe one Infantry de Marine company (personel from France) with one platoon extra of local men serving their conscription time. Plus about 300-500 local reservists. Let's add there about 30-40 gendarmes...
That's roughly what @Palantir wrote and I think he's about right so by extension I think you're about right too.
About mobilisation, it depends about how good French intelligence is, if they know about half a day before that invasion is coming, they might succeed to mobilise about half of people, mostly those living around Port St. Louis.
About a quarter of the OTL FIDF was able to turn out.
Many of its members lived in remote settlements so given the limited notice of its approximately 120 men some 32 turned out.
Except, since writing that in my reply to @Palantir I've thought that as the TTL Malouines have 3-to-4 times the population of the OTL Falklands there might be FIDF drill halls in other parts of the Islands (e.g. Goose Green) where the reservists living too far away to reach Port St Louis could assemble and form platoon-size units.

But we mustn't make the garrison to be too strong, or the Argentines wouldn't have invaded in the first place, defeating the object of the thread.
 
I'm being blond (1). Are you saying that Newfoundland claimed St-Pierre-et-Miquelon?
More or less, I said it wasn't possible for Canada to claim St-Pierre-et-Miquelon since it was closest to Newfoundland. And Newfoundland and the British Empire weren't interested in claiming the islands since the real contentious in the region was fishing access to the Great Banks, and that was dealt in the XVIIIth century.

I'm being blond (2). Are you referring to the locally recruited regiments in the Pacific & West Indies IOTL?
Yes.

I agree. Could one of the reserve companies be an artillery battery with two troops? One equipped with coast defence guns and the other with the French MANPAD of the era.
It can. It can also have some armored cars. But, depending on when those were added to the TOE, the regiment might have an other name reflecting its combined arms organization, like Regiment interarmes d'outre-mer (RIAOM). (That's not the main point, but I like those kind of details :biggrin:)

But we mustn't make the garrison to be too strong, or the Argentines wouldn't have invaded in the first place, defeating the object of the thread.
That's the problem when adapting OTL to ATL. France have a tradition of stronger garrisons than the UK on their remote islands. So, we will need to find a balance in this story.



By the way, I read the thread on Secret Projects where you contributed (very impressive).
The logistic part is very interresting. I came to the same conclusion that Dakar will be the main logistical base as Guyane force you to round Brazilian coast. I note that the French have always been more willing to accept shoestring logistics (specially the Army) than the US or the UK.

I have a question concerning support by the US and the UK. I think the French will need access to satelite intel from the US and material and arms (air-to-air missiles and possibly AEW aircrafts). As OTL France, the UK will give specs and intel on aircrafts and missiles sold to Argentine.
I also think France will ask the UK for the use of Ascention Island if only to base Breguet Atlantic for reccon and as a waypoint for the task forces. It also makes at least possible to plan for a ALT-Black Buck mission, even if you need to lease some KC-135 to the US. Guyane is roughly at the same distance as Ascention from the Malouines/Falklands, but you need to ask Brazil and Uruguay the authorization to go through their air space. And then, you will sulk very close to the Argentinian airspace with the possibility of interception, specially if someone on the two countries above have some leak.
 
@NOMISYRRUC

In 1982, there were no shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles in the French army. Twelve Stinger firing stations were used for operations in Chad starting in 1983.

For AAA , around 600 "53 T2" single-tube mounts delivered to the French Army in 1981 :


Or old 40 mm Bofors :

A 40 mm Bofors anti - aircraft gun of the 5th RIAOM towed by a GMC CCKW in 1984. Djibouti

1984_5eme_RIAOM_059.jpg


12 C-135FR Stratotanker received in 1964 for the Stratégic Air Force (Mirage IV), one lost in 1972.
 
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@L'amateur d'aéroplanes

I wanted the reserve artillery battery to have one troop of land-based Exocets and the other troop to have Crotale. However, I thought that would be too expensive and make the garrison so strong that Argentina might not have invaded in the first place. So I downgraded it to a troop of coast artillery and a troop of MANPADs.

I knew the AdA had 11 KC-135Fs in 1982. What I didn't know was that they didn't become KC-135FRs (i.e. CFM56/F108 engines replaced the original JT3D/TF33s) until between 1985 and 1988. That makes them less useful than I thought they would have been.
 
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