This certainly grabbed my attention...
Any chance of saving the junked episodes of Doctor Who?
(http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Missing_episode
Thank you, Glen!A solid update in many ways, Brainbin.
Indeed, it's going to come in fuller force, especially in its peak (I'm actually describing the beginnings of the trend; it'll ramp up post-1973, for reasons that will be elaborated upon in the future). I also see it being a more tenacious and pervasive trend, much like our enduring, present-day nostalgia for the 1980s (which, like the 1950s, had many problems, but had that ineffable quality to them; I may be biased, of course, considering that I was born in the 1980s).Glen said:I personally am a huge fan of 1950s style nostalgia and love seeing it coming to fruition even fuller and earlier here, at least by intimation.
Oh, Sandy, baby... The casting of Newton-John, of course, completely changed her character. I have no intention of butterflying away her singing career - her angelic voice hits just the right MOR, easy-listening note that so defines 1970s pop music - but I certainly will not commit to casting her in the film adaptation. But I won't rule her out, eitherGlen said:I loved the movie adaptation for Grease IOTL, but I am worried that this earlier showing and the less emphasis on the romance will mean that my Sandy, Olivia Newton John, will never be seen in the role.
I'm going to approach Rock Around the Clock in much the same way that I chose to present Those Were the Days; there will be significant differences from the OTL version, which will be highlighted over the course of the narrative. I went with Dolenz because he was the original choice, and it helps to prove my earlier argument: shocking swerves are commonplace IOTL, and the path of least resistance is followed a good deal less frequently than you might expect. As to his acting ability: let's be fair. Would you imagine a soft-spoken, mild-mannered, short, too-old-for-the-part actor like Henry Winkler to be good for a role like Fonzie if you didn't have a preexisting bias? Probably not. Actors who challenge our preconceptions of them are often the most memorable, after all.Glen said:I am pleased to see if this timelines version of happy days beginning to be launched. I find "the mash" very interesting character to be explored here, though of course I will miss our Fonz. I love Mickey Dolenz in the Monkeys but am uncertain how he will play in this. Of course, Henry Winkler wasn't exactly typecasting the role of the Fonz in our time line, and if he did a good job in Adam 12 maybe it will be replicated here, although still having a hard time wrapping my head around a Mickey Dolenz greaser.
I just might be cooking something with regards to Winkler and his future career plans...Glen said:I respect your decision not to have Henry Winkler cast as the Fonz here, but I still feel you need to give us a little more than he chose to pursue the theater, I really think we would still see him in television at some point.
I see where you're coming from, but Jodie from "Soap", his breakthrough role IOTL, didn't really strike me as too "ethnic". I think we can get Crystal (four years ahead of schedule, and therefore more fresh-faced, as Dreyfuss was) to "pass" with the right hairstyle and some vocal training to loosen that prominent Noo Yawk accent of his.Glen said:Glad to see American graffiti off the ground, and Billy Crystal is a very interesting choice as a replacement for Richard Dreyfuss, so good on you I'm using that suggestion. I would worry that Billy Crystal can't pull off "non-ethnic" as well as Richard Dreyfuss pulled off earlier in his career.
Erin Moran would almost certainly not be cast as Joanie with a POD in 1966. There are way too many variables to take into account for someone that young, so early in her career. Tom Bosley is a lamentable loss, I agree, but I think that he (like Gould, IOTL) will land on his feet. I just have to find the right place for him to do so.Glen said:On the other hand, maybe that is a good day. so if Erin Moran is not playing Joni in this version of happy days it will be a slight loss to the show, she did such a good job playing the bratty younger sister on the show it's hard to imagine it without her. Of course, the greatest loss of all is Tom Bosley not playing the patriarch of the Cunningham family. I hope you have something for him to do in this timeline as he would be a terrible loss.
Well, you know what they say about a stopped clock being right twice a dayBilly Crystal in American Graffiti?!
phx1138 is a genius!
Thank you, vultanvultan said:Great update, Brainbin!
That's a very astute way of looking at it, and I agree wholeheartedly. It's actually a point that I've borrowed from a lot of the dystopian timelines on this site, and I'm just applying it in reverse. It's also a fundamental aspect of human nature. No matter how much we have, no matter how well things are going, we always want more, and we always demand better. That's one of the core themes of Star Trek, after all. And it's obviously a double-edged sword.Interesting coverage of the 50s nostalgia boom--I was wondering how it might have been effected by the less tumultuous late 60s and early 70s ITTL. It looks like even with the 60s being a bit les...60s, the 50s nostalgia still gets its springboard. I guess it's like the TLs where Pearl Harbor is less bad or whatever--while it looks better from our perspective rooted in OTL, ITTL they still weren't the greatest years to live through.
Indeed we will...e of pi said:I wonder what a possibly more successful American Graffiti does for Lucas on Star Wars (especially with closer connections in the editing/post-production business earlier than OTL)? I suppose we'll find out eventually...
Thank you very muche of pi said:Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what you have in store on the spaceflight front, and I must say two things on the TVTropes front:
1) Congratulations, you deserve it.
2) Examining the publicly available evidence, I blame Thande. Surely no other reasons bare speculation of any sort.
And seeing as you were born in 1963, you therefore do not consider yourself a baby boomer? Which instead means that you're among the oldest cohorts of Generation X! Tell me, what are your thoughts on flannel shirts, poorly-groomed hair, grunge music, and comic book stores?I maintain, those who claim "Baby Boomer" includes those born as late as 1963 are idiots. This proves it. So, I suggest, does the success of "American Grafitti" & "Happy Days" (by any name).
There's only one Newton-John, too. And like I said earlier, she may not be cast either!phx1138 said:Just so long as it's not Travolta opposite Olivia, OK? (Stunning, with the voice of an angel, she deserves somebody who can actually sing. {Yes, I feel free to call this stunner by her first name, too. There's only 1.})
Now that would be telling! But if they did, what would we possibly call the iconic trope that is named for him?phx1138 said:Butterflies enough to keep him from getting written out by Season 2?
You are technically correct, sir - the best kind of correct! - and his real name is indeed spelled Masciarelli, which would be pronounced "Mash". Given that Americans (and Canadians), especially in this era, tend to pronounce words as written, I'm sure they added the "h" into the character's original name (which was, of course, changed to "Fonzarelli" IOTL due to the concurrently-running TV series also called "M*A*S*H", which does not exist here) to help audiences understand where the nickname comes from. My apologies to any Italophone readers, or descendants of same, but that's the way it goes.phx1138 said:Am I the only one who doesn't see why it's not "maskarelli"?
Allow me to repeat what the poster says so succinctly: Clint Eastwood Is Dirty Harryphx1138 said:Still turned down "Dirty Harry", then, huh?
And thank you very much for the suggestion!phx1138 said:TYVM, sir. (Was there an Oscar nom in it OTL? I don't recall.)
Desilu is handling all aspects of post-production for the film, with Lucas (and Coppola and Kurtz) "supervising". I mentioned Fields specifically in the update because her absence is directly felt by one of my focal characters (Marcia Lucas). Desilu is also responsible for the sound mixing and editing, for example. Post-production is one of the easiest places for budget overruns to accumulate, but Desilu agreed to charge a bargain rate because it's an experiment for them, dipping their toes into editing for major motion pictures in hopes of gaining prestige and opening the door for new opportunities. The budget is already quite low ($777,777 IOTL; a little over $800,000 ITTL, given the better economy), but here more is able to be spent on elements of pre-production and the filming proper.phx1138 said:I confess some confusion, here. Was hiring an editor OTL so expensive, it actually hurt their set design or costuming budget?
I have heard that story, yes. Here, more of them sell (again, better economy), though still probably not all of them.phx1138 said:Did you know, after they wrapped, they put the cars up for auction locally, & couldn't sell 'em? Even the Deuce? They couldn't get $50 for it. One of the carpenters or somebody got it for next to nothing, & IIRC, it ended up totalled.
I come from a family of Elton fans (and yes, he is someone you address by first name), so I'm perhaps more familiar with the song than I'd like to be. It's pretty obvious that the crowd was added in post; they sound far too "clean" and come in so obviously on cue. I do agree that it adds a certain je ne sais quoi to the song, and it just wouldn't sound the same without it.phx1138 said:Doubtless you know, but as I heard the story, Elton didn't like it, & the crowd was all added in post. (TBH, I can't imagine the "bare" version. Can't have been as good.)
See, when I was a kid, the "box on wheels" style was still in vogue. I actually miss it, myselfphx1138 said:(They still give me nightmares. Along with the '59 Cad taillights.)
I can guarantee you that, ITTL, there won't be a second version, dedicated to an entirely different dead celebrity, that would cheapen the original. And you can take that declaration in whatever way you likeI forgot to mention that candle in the wind is one of my favorite Elton John songs, so very nice to see it getting more attention earlier in this timeline.
The practice of casting actors far too old for their parts is nothing new, and thrived in this era as it did before and after. (Dolenz is actually the same age as Winkler.)I'm still stunned, though, that Winkler was as old as he was when he got the part; i always pictured the Fonz to be about 20-22 at the start. (Thenagain, they cast Travolta as a high school student, albeit a remedial one, so maybe I shouldn't have been surprised.)
ExcellentThis certainly grabbed my attention...
I should have known that you would have seen the episode in question, Chuck - I myself have not, though - for the time being, at least - I can rectify that situation rather easily. (The episode in question is called "Dirt Duel". You all know where you can look for it.) I also like your suggestion of taking things in a Blackboard Jungle direction, and we'll have to see how right you are. One thing worth noting is that even IOTL, the Fonzie started out as a darker, more enigmatic character. The problem is that the production company, Miller-Milkis (which would later achieve notoriety as Miller-Boyett) has very low standards. This was aggravated by the non-existent quality control at the famously apathetic Paramount Television IOTL. However, Miller-Milkis and Marshall are going to be working with a far more proactive and scrupulous studio ITTL - none other than Desilu Productions. And representing That Wacky Redhead's interests are Herb Solow and Robert Justman, who know how to make good television.Micky Dolenz's role as Oiler on Adam-12 was angrier and less likeable than Henry Winkler as the Fonz. If his portrayal of the Mash is similar, I cannot see him becoming as popular ITTL as the the Fonz OTL. The role may be softened due to its being in a nostalgia comedy, but would not necessarily become anything like the Fonz. With a different biker character and series title, the series could go in a darker, more Blackboard Jungle direction.
That is a most intriguing guess, which I will neither confirm nor denyCould be Dolenz doesn't last more than Season 1, then, & it's Mash, & not big bro Chuck, who gets written out...
I appreciate the vote of confidence, Glen.Marshall is basing the character off his younger self - I suspect this means we can expect to see him getting some decent writing. I think we can hope for good things from this character.
Glad to see that you're still reading along, Steve We'll find out what fate will befall TTL in due time, I promise you.It has me a bit concerned as well. Although the 70's were fairly disruptive anyway OTL and finally saw the collapse of the post-war consensus in both Britain and the US. Might be that its no worse, possibly even not as bad as OTL.
I just wanted to say that I am reading, but don't actually know enough about subject matters of the update to say more than 'it looks intriguing'.
If she stayed out of acting entirely, I could live with it. Especially if she didn't do "Xanadu". (She really deserved better.) I only mean, with that voice, she deserves an equal match if she does do "Greased Lightning". (I can't think of anybody who could act and sing from that period, tho.)Brainbin said:Oh, Sandy, baby... The casting of Newton-John, of course, completely changed her character. I have no intention of butterflying away her singing career - her angelic voice hits just the right MOR, easy-listening note that so defines 1970s pop music - but I certainly will not commit to casting her in the film adaptation. But I won't rule her out, either
When did that have any bearing on it?Brainbin said:Would you imagine a soft-spoken, mild-mannered, short, too-old-for-the-part actor like Henry Winkler to be good for a role like Fonzie if you didn't have a preexisting bias?
I don't see why not, either, myself. Crystal did a pretty good 80yr old Jew, so I'm guessing he could put on the right voice (or lose it), as needed.Brainbin said:I see where you're coming from, but Jodie from "Soap", his breakthrough role IOTL, didn't really strike me as too "ethnic". I think we can get Crystal (four years ahead of schedule, and therefore more fresh-faced, as Dreyfuss was) to "pass" with the right hairstyle and some vocal training to loosen that prominent Noo Yawk accent of his.
Brainbin said:Well, you know what they say about a stopped clock being right twice a day
I wonder if it's not human nature to remember "the good old days", to forget the bad even in the worst of times. (I can't imagine the Depression being seen as "good", but did anybody have good memories from those times? I suspect some did. Which is, a bit ironically, thematic of "The Way We Were" & "American Grafitti", both.)Brainbin said:That's a very astute way of looking at it, and I agree wholeheartedly.
I seem to recall another generation in between, that's since been declared null, to which I would claim membership. As for comic book stores, I practically grew up on comics & spend most of the '80s hanging out in my local store. I have very fond memories of the people I knew. The same crowd every Friday & Saturday, as the new stock came in...Brainbin said:And seeing as you were born in 1963, you therefore do not consider yourself a baby boomer? Which instead means that you're among the oldest cohorts of Generation X! Tell me, what are your thoughts on flannel shirts, poorly-groomed hair, grunge music, and comic book stores?
Amen.Brainbin said:There's only one Newton-John, too.
Not my problem. (It's looking like it'll be the "'Mash' Masciarelli Syndrome", tho.)Brainbin said:Now that would be telling! But if they did, what would we possibly call the iconic trope that is named for him?
Which means I should have looked it up.Brainbin said:his real name is indeed spelled Masciarelli, which would be pronounced "Mash"
Absolutely, utterly no argument. Just sayin'.Brainbin said:Allow me to repeat what the poster says so succinctly: Clint Eastwood Is Dirty Harry
Glad to do it.Brainbin said:And thank you very much for the suggestion!
I got a strong sense nobody connected to the film really understood how iconic they'd turn out to be. (Of course, when Barris built Ala Kart, all it managed was a few background appearances... And even The California Kid didn't become an immediate hit AFAIK.)Brainbin said:I have heard that story, yes. Here, more of them sell (again, better economy), though still probably not all of them.
To which I repeat, you've got a better ear for it than me. I had no idea. (I do agree, it makes it work.)Brainbin said:It's pretty obvious that the crowd was added in post; they sound far too "clean" and come in so obviously on cue.
I'm a big fan of the simple but classic: the '65 Rambler American, '67 Dart, so forth. Not to say the '70 Cuda doesn't look great, nor the Porsche 9111/912, or the Boxster... Tailfins make me cringe.Brainbin said:See, when I was a kid, the "box on wheels" style was still in vogue. I actually miss it, myself
Considering the headaches involved in casting teens when you can cast young-looking adults, I do get it. Would you want to deal with scheduling limits & paying tutors & who knows what else, if you didn't have to?Brainbin said:The practice of casting actors far too old for their parts is nothing new
And the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your TL, too.Brainbin said:That is a most intriguing guess, which I will neither confirm nor deny
Thank you, LordInsane, I really appreciate thatI just wanted to say that I am reading, but don't actually know enough about subject matters of the update to say more than 'it looks interesting'.
Having made some preliminary investigations into the subculture in question, that looks like a very logical consequence of the retro nostalgia wave. It's also a nice way to demonstrate the reciprocity of cultural influences crossing the pond. The feeling ITTL, at this juncture, is that Britain is wielding disproportionate influence on the United States (hence the notion of a "Second British Invasion"). Here's a way to demonstrate that The Yanks Are Coming, as wellWondering if Trans-Atlantic cultural osmosis might lead to an earlier, less Glam-influenced, revival of the Teddy Boy subculture?
A better U.S. economy will naturally benefit its closest allies. Canada, Western Europe, Japan, and Australasia are all in a better situation ITTL. Australia, given their intimate involvement in the overseas quagmire (or, as they might call it, the cross-archipelago quagmire), is probably doing the best of all relative to OTL, compared to all of the other First World powers (excluding the USA itself). What does all this mean? There's only one way to find out!Falkenburg said:It would be nice to think that Britains' economy might be in (slightly) better shape than OTL too.
I can't promise anything. It doesn't help that such purely concentrated extremism can taint anything, with as little as a passing glance...Falkenburg said:That might hold out some hope that the Skinhead subculture might never become poisoned with Far Right racist bile.
I can think of many people; the problem is that they're too old. Not that it didn't stop them from trying anyway, IOTL (Diana Ross in The Wiz, Barbra Streisand in Yentl...)If she stayed out of acting entirely, I could live with it. Especially if she didn't do "Xanadu". (She really deserved better.) I only mean, with that voice, she deserves an equal match if she does do "Greased Lightning". (I can't think of anybody who could act and sing from that period, tho.)
Really? Have they ever not complained about that? They probably said the same about Hank Williamsphx1138 said:Actually, she took quite a bit of heat for her country records for being too "non-traditional".
He's a better actor than he's been given credit for, IOTL. I think he could pull off pathos at least as well as Robin Williams, who made a career out of it.phx1138 said:I don't see why not, either, myself. Crystal did a pretty good 80yr old Jew, so I'm guessing he could put on the right voice (or lose it), as needed.
Oddly, there were a number of Depression-era nostalgia pieces released in the early 1970s IOTL (and ITTL), "The Waltons" (here, "Spencer's Mountain") and The Sting, among them. And there is a romance about the Depression; the exact same romance that attracts people to feudal and frontier societies.phx1138 said:I wonder if it's not human nature to remember "the good old days", to forget the bad even in the worst of times. (I can't imagine the Depression being seen as "good", but did anybody have good memories from those times? I suspect some did. Which is, a bit ironically, thematic of "The Way We Were" & "American Grafitti", both.)
I vaguely recall this generation, myself. The youthful hot-shots, the upwardly mobile bankers, day traders, executives... big hair, big suits, cocaine... the workhorse of Reaganomics. Think Wall Street or Working Girl. Would you consider yourself affiliated with that generation?phx1138 said:I seem to recall another generation in between, that's since been declared null, to which I would claim membership.
The best way to tell the difference is by direct comparison. Listen to "Bennie" immediately before or after the 1986 Australian version of "Candle", or the duet version of "Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me" with George Michael, both of which were performed before a live audience.phx1138 said:To which I repeat, you've got a better ear for it than me. I had no idea. (I do agree, it makes it work.)
I think we all know what the greatest car was. The DeLorean DMC-12, of course! (Who cares if it was a lemon, it looked fantastic. And it could travel through time! )phx1138 said:I'm a big fan of the simple but classic: the '65 Rambler American, '67 Dart, so forth. Not to say the '70 Cuda doesn't look great, nor the Porsche 9111/912, or the Boxster... Tailfins make me cringe.
There's a certain authenticity that casting real youth gives you, and there's no amount of polish or experience any twenty-something could possibly have that would compensate for that. Obviously, there are practical and ethical considerations, but it's usually a good idea to cast people who are as similar to their characters as possible.phx1138 said:Considering the headaches involved in casting teens when you can cast young-looking adults, I do get it. Would you want to deal with scheduling limits & paying tutors & who knows what else, if you didn't have to?
I think we all know what the greatest car was. The DeLorean DMC-12, of course! (Who cares if it was a lemon, it looked fantastic. And it could travel through time! )
I presumed you understood "age appropriate" was a given. Even if the average studio suit doesn't have a clue.Brainbin said:I can think of many people; the problem is that they're too old. Not that it didn't stop them from trying anyway, IOTL (Diana Ross in The Wiz, Barbra Streisand in Yentl...)
I couldn't say. My knowledge of country music stretches from Olivia to Poco & Lyle Lovett. (I've heard "6 Days on the Road", if that counts.)Brainbin said:Really? Have they ever not complained about that? They probably said the same about Hank Williams
I'd agree with that.Brainbin said:He's a better actor than he's been given credit for, IOTL. I think he could pull off pathos
I'm thinking of genuine memory, not Hollywood whitewash. A nostalgic treatment of any period, however bad, in film or TV is bound to overlook or gloss the bad.Brainbin said:Oddly, there were a number of Depression-era nostalgia pieces released in the early 1970s IOTL (and ITTL), "The Waltons" (here, "Spencer's Mountain") and The Sting, among them. And there is a romance about the Depression; the exact same romance that attracts people to feudal and frontier societies.
By birth, probably. By inclination, no.Brainbin said:I vaguely recall this generation, myself. The youthful hot-shots, the upwardly mobile bankers, day traders, executives... big hair, big suits, cocaine... the workhorse of Reaganomics. Think Wall Street or Working Girl. Would you consider yourself affiliated with that generation?
Brainbin said:I think we all know what the greatest car was. The DeLorean DMC-12, of course! (Who cares if it was a lemon, it looked fantastic. And it could travel through time! )
In many cases, I'd agree. After about 15, tho, casting an 18yr old, instead, isn't unreasonable. A 20-something, maybe, under 25, if the actor can pass for the younger. Think of Sarah Michelle Gellar in "Buffy": 18 playing 16, IIRC. She looked younger, & pulls it off. Alyson as Willow played younger, too. Charisma was playing the snooty bitch, so her being, & looking, a bit older wasn't far out of line (for me, anyhow). I won't say the "90210"s were young enough... And sheer duration works against, frex, "Smallville", even allowing Tom Welling & Allison Mack were young enough to begin with (& I'm agnostic on that).Brainbin said:There's a certain authenticity that casting real youth gives you, and there's no amount of polish or experience any twenty-something could possibly have that would compensate for that. Obviously, there are practical and ethical considerations, but it's usually a good idea to cast people who are as similar to their characters as possible.
Please don't ask for convenient morphic twins...pbaustin2 said:we could see some interesting cameos when That Wacky Redhead reaches the Eighties
No worries, mate.Brainbin said:Thank you all so much for your patience.
Obviously, they need to have something ready in time for 2015I wonder if Belfast will get around to building a Museum to the DeLorean in a hundred years, or so?
You know what they say: truth is stranger than fiction! Or, alternatively, the difference between reality and fiction is that the latter has to make sense!Falkenburg said:How they came to build that car, in that town, at that time, is one of those stories of OTL that any sane person would deride as ASB if proposed in an ATL.
Welcome aboard, pbaustin! One thing to take into account is that people who were very young at the time of the POD, like Fox, will have a whole lot of growing up to do, in a world that's rather different from our own. Who knows what career path some of them might take? That said, we may well see a few familiar faces in the years ahead...the POD was in 1966, five years after Michael J. Fox's birth. and since the POD was in late 1966, everyone born until early 1967 is still born as they were in OTL so we could see some interesting cameos when That Wacky Redhead reaches the Eighties.
To be fair, in the long run, ever since the Golden Age, they have been getting better at casting younger. Witness the 1936 film version of Romeo & Juliet, in which 43-year-old Leslie Howard stars as Romeo, and Norma Shearer as Juliet (the youngest of the major players, by a considerable margin) was 34. Contrast a more contemporary film with a famously aged cast, Grease. Even the senior member of the cast, Stockard Channing, was "only" 33! And on 90210, Gabrielle Carteris was actually still in her 20s!I presumed you understood "age appropriate" was a given. Even if the average studio suit doesn't have a clue.
He was the only celebrity guest star in the cavalcade of cameos that was Kenneth Branagh's Hamlet who was even the least bit convincing. (Most of them stuck out like a sore thumb. I don't know who was worse - Jack Lemmon or - ironically enough - Robin Williams).phx1138 said:I'd agree with that.
Sorry. Even if I agreed with you that they could pass for teenagers (and on the whole, they couldn't, except maybe for the petite and relatively youthful Gellar), they all carry themselves as young adults. It doesn't help that their dialogue sounds like it was written by a thirty-something who fancies himself the smartest, hippest guy in the room.phx1138 said:In many cases, I'd agree. After about 15, tho, casting an 18yr old, instead, isn't unreasonable. A 20-something, maybe, under 25, if the actor can pass for the younger. Think of Sarah Michelle Gellar in "Buffy": 18 playing 16, IIRC. She looked younger, & pulls it off. Alyson as Willow played younger, too. Charisma was playing the snooty bitch, so her being, & looking, a bit older wasn't far out of line (for me, anyhow).
Believe it or not, Luke Perry (whose famous forehead wrinkles made him look older than he was), Ian Ziering, and (obviously) Carteris aside, everyone else in the core cast was 21 or under when they started. It's only because of the sheer audacity of the outlying representatives that the show as a whole has this reputation. (Douglas Emerson, who played Scott Scanlon in the first two seasons, actually was 15, but of course they had to get rid of him).phx1138 said:I won't say the "90210"s were young enough...
They weren't. Welling especially looked way too old and too buff for the part. The funniest thing about Smallville, though, was that the actress they cast for Lois Lane (Erica Durance) was actually older than the one cast for Superman Returns (the annoyingly ubiquitous - and talentless - Kate Bosworth), when it should be the reverse!phx1138 said:And sheer duration works against, frex, "Smallville", even allowing Tom Welling & Allison Mack were young enough to begin with
Thank you, Nigel, and welcome aboard!I've just managed to catch up with this Thread, and I must say it's been an enjoyable read.
The transporter room, actually - it would be too cluttered on the bridge. (It also allows for a nice confluence between Star Trek technology and Doctor Who technology. And the transporters have always had a mind of their own anyway - poor Mr. Kyle won't know what to do with himself!NCW8 said:I particularly enjoyed the Star Trek/Dr Who crossover - I can just imagine the Doctor's first appearance on the episode with the Tardis materialising on the bridge of the Enterprise.
Many of these same points were raised when I discussed the event with a consultant, right down to referencing the exact same timeline. I won't reveal whether I chose to retain Wilson or elect Heath, but I will divulge that the decision I made was a critical one that will tie into other important events elsewhere, as has so often been the case in developing this timeline. But thank you very much for your input, because you've confirmed a number of important points.NCW8 said:On the subject of UK politics, I think it should be fairly easy to change the result of the 1970 election. The late swing to the Conservatives is thought to be due to poor balance of payments figures released just before poling day plus the bad news of England being eliminated from the World Cup. I think that you've said that the UK economy is slightly better off ITTL and that alone might be enough to change the result. Alternatively, having England win the quarter final (maybe Gordon Banks doesn't fall ill ) or just having the election held a couple of weeks earlier could change things.
I recall hearing once how surprised everyone was when the '68 film version of "Romeo & Juliet" (with Olivia Hussey) was cast that both leads were actually teenagers.Brainbin said:To be fair, in the long run, ever since the Golden Age, they have been getting better at casting younger. Witness the 1936 film version of Romeo & Juliet, in which 43-year-old Leslie Howard stars as Romeo, and Norma Shearer as Juliet (the youngest of the major players, by a considerable margin) was 34. Contrast a more contemporary film with a famously aged cast, Grease. Even the senior member of the cast, Stockard Channing, was "only" 33! And on 90210, Gabrielle Carteris was actually still in her 20s!
Presumably I was too old to notice, then.Brainbin said:Sorry. Even if I agreed with you that they could pass for teenagers (and on the whole, they couldn't, except maybe for the petite and relatively youthful Gellar), they all carry themselves as young adults. It doesn't help that their dialogue sounds like it was written by a thirty-something who fancies himself the smartest, hippest guy in the room.
That does surprise me.Brainbin said:Believe it or not, Luke Perry (whose famous forehead wrinkles made him look older than he was), Ian Ziering, and (obviously) Carteris aside, everyone else in the core cast was 21 or under when they started. It's only because of the sheer audacity of the outlying representatives that the show as a whole has this reputation. (Douglas Emerson, who played Scott Scanlon in the first two seasons, actually was 15, but of course they had to get rid of him).
Erica wasn't the only one. By that time, Tom was older than the film Supes, too. (He wasn't your Batbane, was he?) That's what you get for having a successful series.Brainbin said:They weren't. Welling especially looked way too old and too buff for the part. The funniest thing about Smallville, though, was that the actress they cast for Lois Lane (Erica Durance) was actually older than the one cast for Superman Returns (the annoyingly ubiquitous - and talentless - Kate Bosworth), when it should be the reverse!
I wonder how the Soviets are reacting to the new television and cultural landscape of the West?
I wonder how the Soviets are reacting to the new television and cultural landscape of the West?
I've never seen the 1936 version, but I have since the 1996 Baz Luhrmann version, which also had a relatively young cast (DiCaprio was 21, Danes was 16), and the Zeffirelli version blowed it out of the water. There are many reasons why this was the case, and I believe that having younger actors (Whiting was 17, Hussey was 15) was a factor. There's a greater emotional honesty there, which is part of the reason why they gave better performances. The direction no doubt played a part, as does Luhrmann's ludicrous decision to "modernize" the setting. (Still not the worst "modern-day" version of a Shakespeare play, though; that dubious honour goes to the 2000 version of Hamlet, starring Ethan Hawke as the scion of Denmark Corporation). I liked Claire Danes in "My So-Called Life" as much as anyone, but Hussey was magnificent as Juliet. Still probably my favourite screen Juliet. Whiting definitely trumped DiCaprio, as well. I've mentioned before, that certain actors - even very good ones - can founder without strong direction, and Leo is definitely one of them. (At least he wasn't wearing his patented spoiled-little-kid-scowl face for the whole movie).I recall hearing once how surprised everyone was when the '68 film version of "Romeo & Juliet" (with Olivia Hussey) was cast that both leads were actually teenagers.
That's true, but I'm willing to call that justifiable, for a few reasons. First of all, Routh strongly resembles Christopher Reeve, which is important for continuity purposes (though this is capsized by Bosworth looking and sounding absolutely nothing like Margot Kidder). Also, Superman is Kryptonian, and would presumably age more slowly than humans, so even in-universe it does make some measure of sense... though once again, since Bosworth also looks much younger, it weakens that effect. I'm glad her career is stalling now, because a few years ago she seemed to be in everything and I really don't get why. Does she have something on all these directors? Has she threatened to blackmail them? Obviously, I really don't like her at all. Though I do like her name. Bosworth. The perfect name for a butler, valet, or chauffeurphx1138 said:Erica wasn't the only one. By that time, Tom was older than the film Supes, too. (He wasn't your Batbane, was he?) That's what you get for having a successful series.
You're all raising some good points. We've touched on Soviet culture before, and with the information provided so far, they've got cause to celebrate relative to OTL - Bobby Fischer did not win the World Chess Championship from Boris Spassky, meaning that it remains in Soviet hands. Likewise, Canada narrowly lost the Summit Series vs. the USSR, and thus the Soviets are more or less established as the masters of hockey, much to the chagrin of the Canadian national psyche (which has resulted in major changes in Canada). Losing the space race aside, they're flying relatively high at the moment, and we'll touch more on their space program very soon.I wonder how the Soviets are reacting to the new television and cultural landscape of the West?
imagine they still see it much as in OTL with the glaring omission of MASH - makes you wonder how much they read into that OTL.
A longer running and more successful Star Trek which includes a Russian as a major character in a sympathetic (if sterotypical way) might please them. Also there is no Omega Glory ITTL and while the Federation/Klingon conflict is an obvious parallel to the US/USSR cold war, it is not entirely negative to the USSR. Indeed the series finale shows them co-operating against the Romulans (who can be seen as stand-ins for the Chinese).
Evidently, I should stay away from anything film related here. I don't have nearly the appreciation of the subtleties you do.Brainbin said:I've never seen the 1936 version...
I'll give you that one.Brainbin said:That's true, but I'm willing to call that justifiable, for a few reasons. First of all, Routh strongly resembles Christopher Reeve, which is important for continuity purposes
I have no problem with Supes aging more slowly. It's him being visibly younger as an adult than his "teen" self that I meant. In this instance, using an older actor & playing younger might make the most sense: with his powers, he would have to be more mature, more disciplined. Also, as a Kryptonian, who says his mental development doesn't give him the impulse control human teens don't have? (Think Vulcan. {Hmm...})Brainbin said:Also, Superman is Kryptonian, and would presumably age more slowly than humans, so even in-universe it does make some measure of sense...
That's mean.Brainbin said:Bosworth. The perfect name for a butler, valet, or chauffeur
Given Sov mistrust of PRC, I'm not sure you really need to bring Japan into it.Brainbin said:With regards to Star Trek, Nigel has picked up on a lot of the finer nuances of my intended political subtext, but I'll lay it all out there for the official record: as IOTL, the Federation represents the Western Allies, the Klingons are Soviet Russia, and the Romulans are Red China. However, ITTL, the Klingons and Romulans are not allied or even on very good terms, as a direct allegory of the Sino-Soviet split. (IOTL, the Klingon-Romulan "alliance" happened due to budget limitations, which necessitated the use of a Klingon ship model to portray a Romulan ship). This means that there's a tripartite Cold War situation going on. ITTL, detente emerges after the conclusion of the overseas quagmire, though in more muted and low-key fashion. Meanwhile, the USA and Red China still have very chilly relations. ...This combination results in Red China, and not Soviet Russia, being seen as quite possibly a greater potential threat in the future, which is why their analogue in Star Trek emerges as the ultimate villain. Because all-out war is breaking out, they have to shift to WWII allegory. Thus, the Romulans become Imperial Japan, and the Federation and the Klingons become unlikely allies against a mutual threat.