Map Thread VIII

[Yelnoc]

Ok, here is my attempt.

Awesome! Thanks man.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Awesome! Thanks man.

No problem, just credit me when you use it.

 

[Utgard96]

I made an attempt myself.

 

[Neoteros]

 

[Silent Cal]

Hmmm Austria-Bohemia-Bavaria-Venetia?

Good work, though it took me a bit to make it all out.

 

[Neoteros]

Hmmm Austria-Bohemia-Bavaria-Venice?

Backstory is here http://neoteros.deviantart.com/#/d40ffbb

This map is set in an alternate timeline in which Hungary secedes in the years after the Congress of Vienna, changing Austrian politics in the years to come. In 1878, the state ruled by the Habsburg house, which managed to compensate the loss of Hungary by enacting an aggressive foreign policy, conceded a constitution to the people, who established four federated kingdoms in the Empire, all under the Habsburg crown: the Kingdom of Austria, which controlled new lands in Germany and France obtained with peaceful and violent means, the Kingdom of Czechia, the Kingdom of Italy, largely a merge of the various puppet states of the peninsula plus Romagna and the small Tuscan duchies, and the Kingdom of Slovenia.

 

[Codae]

Mmm...Well a little request : an Aquitain wank.

Is this what you're looking for? I know it's missing labels, but that's about half because I don't know Occitan.

 

[LSCatilina]

Is this what you're looking for? I know it's missing labels, but that's about half because I don't know Occitan.

Thanks, but well if it's a wank, the other countries must be quite small, isn't?

 

[Silent Cal]

Backstory is here http://neoteros.deviantart.com/#/d40ffbb

Yeah, I just realized the last one was Slovenia. The text on the map is pretty blurry so I missed it.

One nitpick though: I doubt "Czechia" and "Slovenia" would be called that, considering they are somewhat anachronistic for the 19th century.

IOTL the names for these potential crowns would be "Bohemia", Czechia's historical name, and "Illyria" or perhaps the historical "Carinthia" for today's Slovenia, though I suppose if TTL had a more successful early "Slavic awakening" they might have pushed for those names.

 

[GodRaimundo]

Just wondering. I know we have had scores of CP Victory maps, which each map maker implementing their own style into the map, but have we ever done a Map that everyone can agree on? Have we ever finally finalized the most plausible peace in a CP victory world?

If not, would it be a good idea to make one once and for all, for each scenario. Such as CP Victory where the US does not get involved, or when the Germans are victorious on the Marne in 1914?

I personally feel like it would be an excellent resource for this site.

As it happens, I just did a map where the Schlieffen Plan is carried out as originally planned, leading to the Germans winning at the Marne. I based much of the map on a the Septemberprogramm, which would probably have been butterflied away, but it seemed pretty logical, given the imperialism of the time.

I assumed that, while the war in Europe would end decisively in the favour of Germany, the UK would be relatively safe, and as the Germans had no intention of taking any British territory at the time, left the British as they were.

I'm not quite sure how to show the German Mitteleuropa economic zone, or even if it would come about in the manner proposed in the Septemberprogramm, which seemed to assume a total CP victory. I personally don't see this happening outside of Europe without an extremely long war which would prove crippling for both sides, and am assuming that the concept would be fairly diluted.

The Balkans are based pretty much on guesswork, and I'm not even sure if AH had any designs on Montenegro at all. The Bulgarian annexation of Serbia is based purely on the idea that Bulgaria would want some kind of territorial gain for their participation in the war.

I haven't included the various revolutions that I would expect postwar in this scenario, but may make another map illustrating them.

I assume the war would finally end on all fronts around 1915, maybe 1916 before hostilities with Britain cease.

So yeah. Here's the map.

 

[Alex Richards]

As it happens, I just did a map where the Schlieffen Plan is carried out as originally planned, leading to the Germans winning at the Marne. I based much of the map on a the Septemberprogramm, which would probably have been butterflied away, but it seemed pretty logical, given the imperialism of the time.

I assumed that, while the war in Europe would end decisively in the favour of Germany, the UK would be relatively safe, and as the Germans had no intention of taking any British territory at the time, left the British as they were.

I'm not quite sure how to show the German Mitteleuropa economic zone, or even if it would come about in the manner proposed in the Septemberprogramm, which seemed to assume a total CP victory. I personally don't see this happening outside of Europe without an extremely long war which would prove crippling for both sides, and am assuming that the concept would be fairly diluted.

The Balkans are based pretty much on guesswork, and I'm not even sure if AH had any designs on Montenegro at all. The Bulgarian annexation of Serbia is based purely on the idea that Bulgaria would want some kind of territorial gain for their participation in the war.

I haven't included the various revolutions that I would expect postwar in this scenario, but may make another map illustrating them.

I assume the war would finally end on all fronts around 1915, maybe 1916 before hostilities with Britain cease.

So yeah. Here's the map.

The only thing that I can really think off the top of my head is that Bulgaria would get all of Serbian Macedonia as part of 'Greater Bulgaria'. Greece and Romania presumably don't join the war.

 

[Silent Cal]

The Balkans are based pretty much on guesswork, and I'm not even sure if AH had any designs on Montenegro at all. The Bulgarian annexation of Serbia is based purely on the idea that Bulgaria would want some kind of territorial gain for their participation in the war.

I'm thinking A-H would support King Nicholas I (who was ousted OTL by Peter I of Serbia and branded a traitor and collaborator) as the ruler of an independent Montenegro, if a Austrian-sponsored one.

Bulgaria also certainly had its eyes on Serbian Macedonia and the area around Nis and Vranje.

 

[B_Munro]

As it happens, I just did a map where the Schlieffen Plan is carried out as originally planned, leading to the Germans winning at the Marne. I based much of the map on a the Septemberprogramm, which would probably have been butterflied away, but it seemed pretty logical, given the imperialism of the time.

I'm not quite sure how to show the German Mitteleuropa economic zone,.

A nice colored border would do the trick, although I will admit it's a bit time-consuming.

I assume the war would finally end on all fronts around 1915, maybe 1916 before hostilities with Britain cease..

I think you underestimate Russia: the logistics of an invasion of the road-poor Russian interior would have been a logistical nightmare, and it took a while and much suffering to bring about the collapse of the Russian state (will the Germans even send Lenin back to Russia in this TL?): I'd expect Russia hangs in there till 1916 because they refuse to give up on the territories they will lose at the start of the war, and don't surrender until the cracks really start to form. (Germany getting all the Ukraine but none of Belorus seems a bit odd).

Bruce

 

[B_Munro]

Also - Turkish Circassia? Wouldn't the Young Turk government prefer Turkish Azerbaijan, since they have a land border and everything?

Bruce

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

I thought we agreed long ago that AH and the Ottomans would never annex anymore territory (or at least in AH's case, very small amounts of territory). Adding all of Serbia to A-H is a terrible idea and would likely bring about an early grave.

The Ottoman Empire was in no position to gain territory, especially if invaded as in OTL. Actually, they got a separate treaty in OTL - I think they'd be fucked completely in any scenario if the Arab Revolt and British invasion occurred.

 

[GodRaimundo]

I was basing the East off a map that I only vaguely remember, and to be honest, I think it might have had some sort of German colony in Circassia. And I wasn't really sure what to do with Serbia, so I just sort of added it to AH for the lack of any better idea.

Also, any ideas on Egypt?? I'm tempted to give it totally to the British, as I really don't think that the Ottomans would have held it in this scenario. I'm also not sure what to do with Azerbaijan and the like, because I think there was a proposal to integrate them into the German sphere of influence, but I'm not sure quite how, or even if that would be feasible ITTL.

But anyway, a slightly updated map.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

I was basing the East off a map that I only vaguely remember, and to be honest, I think it might have had some sort of German colony in Circassia. And I wasn't really sure what to do with Serbia, so I just sort of added it to AH for the lack of any better idea.

Also, any ideas on Egypt?? I'm tempted to give it totally to the British, as I really don't think that the Ottomans would have held it in this scenario. I'm also not sure what to do with Azerbaijan and the like, because I think there was a proposal to integrate them into the German sphere of influence, but I'm not sure quite how, or even if that would be feasible ITTL.

But anyway, a slightly updated map.

Well with Serbia, you could probably give all of Serbian Macedonia to Bulgaria, and some of the more Hungarian-majority border regions to Hungary, and have the rest as a vassal of the empire rather than annexing it wholly. That way the Serbs still have their 'sovereignty'.

The Transcaucasus region could be added to Mittleuropa I suppose, or maybe those states are just German puppets. They might even become Ottoman vassals in a sense (or under some kind of security agreement with the Turks).

Though as for Egypt, I'm still convinced the Ottomans would get their separate treaty and would be dismantled by the British (heck, the Germans might even support something like that. I don't think the Germans gave any guarantees to the Turks. Either way unless the Ottoman Empire is neutral in the war or can stabilise before its end, or if the war ends too early for the British to incite rebellion or invade, I'm sure they're bound to collapse. Egypt wasn't even part of the empire in actuality. The whole suzerainty was just a formality and may as well have been phased out before then completely.

Edit: Also, anything the Germans lose in the Pacific will remain lost. They had no power projection there - I'm talking about the Japanese of course, who occupied most of the German North Pacific and Shantung, and the Australians and New Zealanders who took control of New Guinea and much of Germany's South Pacific. But of course, this is all relative to when your war ends.

 

[Plumber]

Well with Serbia, you could probably give all of Serbian Macedonia to Bulgaria, and some of the more Hungarian-majority border regions to Hungary, and have the rest as a vassal of the empire rather than annexing it wholly. That way the Serbs still have their 'sovereignty'.

The Transcaucasus region could be added to Mittleuropa I suppose, or maybe those states are just German puppets. They might even become Ottoman vassals in a sense (or under some kind of security agreement with the Turks).

Though as for Egypt, I'm still convinced the Ottomans would get their separate treaty and would be dismantled by the British (heck, the Germans might even support something like that. I don't think the Germans gave any guarantees to the Turks. Either way unless the Ottoman Empire is neutral in the war or can stabilise before its end, or if the war ends too early for the British to incite rebellion or invade, I'm sure they're bound to collapse. Egypt wasn't even part of the empire in actuality. The whole suzerainty was just a formality and may as well have been phased out before then completely.

Edit: Also, anything the Germans lose in the Pacific will remain lost. They had no power projection there - I'm talking about the Japanese of course, who occupied most of the German North Pacific and Shantung, and the Australians and New Zealanders who took control of New Guinea and much of Germany's South Pacific. But of course, this is all relative to when your war ends.

You gravely underestimate the Ottomans. And the Japanese Navy was weaker than the German one IIRC, though with British help Japan was of course superior.

 

[Kriegdämmerung]

New map...

Just a few questions/comments:

Shouldn't Finland be a part of Mitteleuropa, especially considering its origins?

Likewise, I think that this state http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountainous_Republic_of_the_Northern_Caucasus (or an analog) would be respectable, especially considering Germany's commitment to dissolving Russian influence.

EDIT: Also, a victory in the Balkans would like be able to encourage the Austro-Hungarians to enforce their will over Albania. Perhaps have a forced Albania and an already pro-Central Powers Greece in Mitteleuropa?

Though as for Egypt, I'm still convinced the Ottomans would get their separate treaty and would be dismantled by the British (heck, the Germans might even support something like that. I don't think the Germans gave any guarantees to the Turks. Either way unless the Ottoman Empire is neutral in the war or can stabilise before its end, or if the war ends too early for the British to incite rebellion or invade, I'm sure they're bound to collapse. Egypt wasn't even part of the empire in actuality. The whole suzerainty was just a formality and may as well have been phased out before then completely.

Edit: Also, anything the Germans lose in the Pacific will remain lost. They had no power projection there - I'm talking about the Japanese of course, who occupied most of the German North Pacific and Shantung, and the Australians and New Zealanders who took control of New Guinea and much of Germany's South Pacific. But of course, this is all relative to when your war ends.

You gravely underestimate the Ottomans. And the Japanese Navy was weaker than the German one IIRC, though with British help Japan was of course superior.

I agree with both, I think that Egypt is going to keep the status quo, with the Ottomans not possessing the power to both take Egypt and reclaim the Caucasus.

And yeah, the Pacific is off-limits to the Germans.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

You gravely underestimate the Ottomans. And the Japanese Navy was weaker than the German one IIRC, though with British help Japan was of course superior.

It wasn't so much the power of the navy, but their projection capabilities. As you said, the British were far superior in that area of the world and Japan was still their ally. Germany couldn't land men in their lost territories even if they could somehow get their ships there.

As for the Ottomans, am I really? Let's assume the Arab Rebellion starts on cue and the British still invade and occupy nearly the entire southern portion of the country, much of Syria, Jordan and Mesopotamia and all of Palestine. Post-war, the Turks are fighting in their own territory not to repel invaders but to hold together their own empire.

And I am underestimating the Ottomans by saying they are more or less screwed? Germany isn't going so say, "Woah, hey, cut them some slack." The Ottomans will be a part of a separate peace. Granted I think that it all depends on when the war ends though.