Could the Holocaust been avoided?

[altamiro]

Flat fucking bullshit.

Actually, not quite. Especially in the POW officer camps during the winter 1945/46 - where Wehrmacht officers were held before the Alleis decided what to actually do with them - the rations were set at or below starvation level (yes, also in US zone) resulting in thousands of deaths which can be attributed to starvation (if you die after contracting common influenza because your body is too weakened to fight the disease, is it death by starvation or not?)

Most of the German population was in a similar situation during the said winter, only in spring 1946 the food supplies from USA and Canada started coming in. The situation was worsened by the arrival of millions of people displaced from Silesia, Sudetenland etc.

Whether it was a deliberate policy, a logistics screw-up or an inevitable transport capacity bottleneck is up for discussion. The starvation itself (not millions certainly, but tens to low hundreds of thousands of deaths, see above) is well documented, and is said to have been the main argument for repealing the Morgenthau plan by the US government.

 

[DuQuense]

Perhaps during negotiations with the Allies (Munich or a similar sort of conference) the Germans make their conditions include the British setting aside land in Palestine for a Jewish homeland.

That is what the Balfour declaration in 1917 was.
What you have to do is have the British clamp down on the 1929 Hebron Riot, and not use that as an excuse to stop Jewish Immigration to West Palestine.
If the British authorities make it clear that East Palestine [Palestine-trans Jordon] is for the Arabs, while continuing to allow Jewish immigration to West Palestine, there will be somewhere for the Jews to be deported to.

 

[loughery111]

They werent loosing war yet, but there were problems in Eastern front and in Africa. Acceptance of nazi ideology in west was thing of time before the war. Reason why Germany was allowed to grow in power was because west was afraid of communism and they wanted to use Germany against Soviet union.

There were lot of war crimes against Germany during the war, bombing, rapes, killing civilians but mostly after the war. Germany was divided, more than 10 million Germans were forced to move to Germany from their homes all around Europe, millions of Germans died of starvation after the war, usa still holds military bases in Germany. Holocaust served as justification for these events.

The west didn't accept Nazi ideology so much as certain political elements of the western leadership were unwilling to go to war to stop it. They didn't take a direct interest in Germany because Germany hadn't yet taken a direct interest in them. Once Germany invaded various western allies, they got sufficiently involved to declare war. Nonetheless, if the question "would you allow Germany to murder six million innocents to keep Stalin out of Europe, when there are better ways to do so?" were put to your average citizen of France, the UK, or the US, the answer would be "no." They didn't accept Hitler's massacre of the Jews, but they didn't know about it until very late, and the military decision-makers who did know regarded ending the war through bombing campaigns as being more important. (Misguidedly, in my mind, but public opinion was not a factor in their decision.)

Now... most of the war crimes you make reference to were committed by the Soviets, who I don't deny killed masses of civilians and POW's, forcibly relocated 15 million people out of former German Pomerania and East Prussia, and stripped East Germany of the industrial and agricultural resources it desperately needed to feed itself. If you want to talk about war crimes, look at the whole Eastern Front, on both sides. Mass murder of civilians doesn't even begin to cover it. Also, rapes and murders by US soldiers, those that are documented, were punished. Obviously not all were documented, but all-in-all the US, British, and Free French and Polish armies in Germany and Austria were remarkably restrained. Soviet conscript soldiers, not so much.

Finally, the US military bases were initially part of the post-war occupation of Germany, justified not by the Holocaust but by the fact that Germany had launched a war of conquest against all of Europe. Their continued presence was a result of the Cold War, when a demilitarized West Germany (which was quickly rehabilitated, rebuilt, and allowed to possess an army) needed someone with teeth to keep the Soviets out.

Actually, not quite. Especially in the POW officer camps during the winter 1945/46 - where Wehrmacht officers were held before the Alleis decided what to actually do with them - the rations were set at or below starvation level (yes, also in US zone) resulting in thousands of deaths which can be attributed to starvation (if you die after contracting common influenza because your body is too weakened to fight the disease, is it death by starvation or not?)

Most of the German population was in a similar situation during the said winter, only in spring 1946 the food supplies from USA and Canada started coming in. The situation was worsened by the arrival of millions of people displaced from Silesia, Sudetenland etc.

Whether it was a deliberate policy, a logistics screw-up or an inevitable transport capacity bottleneck is up for discussion. The starvation itself (not millions certainly, but tens to low hundreds of thousands of deaths, see above) is well documented, and is said to have been the main argument for repealing the Morgenthau plan by the US government.

Agreed. I have seen some very convincing arguments saying that this was caused by a combination of logistics constraints (we were also feeding Britain and trying to feed Japan at the same time as shipping our own men home and supplying an occupation force in two countries, not to mention supplying the Kuomintang in China) and major screw-ups early on (our leadership drastically overestimated the ability of Germany to produce crops and get them to the people in the cities after we had shattered their transportation network so thoroughly.) I'm fairly sure that some malice entered into it on a purely local scale, especially in the POW camps, but the US government and military did not set out to allow people to starve to death and did move to stop it once it became clear that their intervention was needed desperately. After all, we did supply Germany with a little under half of its caloric consumption in 1946-47 and Japan with more than that (I forget the figures but have seen them in the past)... not the actions of someone trying to commit genocide.

 

[altamiro]

I'm fairly sure that some malice entered into it on a purely local scale, especially in the POW camps, but the US government and military did not set out to allow people to starve to death and did move to stop it once it became clear that their intervention was needed desperately.

Not the actions of someone trying to commit genocide.

Nobody sane is accusing USA as whole or the top government attempting to commit genocide in Germany, but as you write, it seems that some people (either on local commander level, or somewhere on middle government level) were determined to punish German population further by at least partially withholding or re-routing food supply. The command structure of the occupation forces was reshuffled quite a lot in early 1946 - and suddenly supplies started to flow.

They didn't accept Hitler's massacre of the Jews, but they didn't know about it until very late, and the military decision-makers who did know regarded ending the war through bombing campaigns as being more important.

And still, the bombing campaigns were not nearly as effective in ending the war as the decision-makers thought. I am afraid that the application of air-power (i.e. barely aimed high level bombing) to the Holocaust would have been just as ineffective.

Their continued presence was a result of the Cold War, when a demilitarized West Germany (which was quickly rehabilitated, rebuilt, and allowed to possess an army) needed someone with teeth to keep the Soviets out.

And their continued presence after the end of the cold war provides the Bundeswehr with pretty good and easily accessible joint training opportunities - and the government with a pretty good cash source (US military pays a pretty penny in rent). And USA benefit from having massive supply bases in friendly environment.

 

[Cook]

Actually, not quite. Especially in the POW officer camps during the winter 1945/46 - where Wehrmacht officers were held before the Alleis decided what to actually do with them - the rations were set at or below starvation level (yes, also in US zone) resulting in thousands of deaths which can be attributed to starvation (if you die after contracting common influenza because your body is too weakened to fight the disease, is it death by starvation or not?)

Most of the German population was in a similar situation during the said winter, only in spring 1946 the food supplies from USA and Canada started coming in. The situation was worsened by the arrival of millions of people displaced from Silesia, Sudetenland etc.

Whether it was a deliberate policy, a logistics screw-up or an inevitable transport capacity bottleneck is up for discussion. The starvation itself (not millions certainly, but tens to low hundreds of thousands of deaths, see above) is well documented, and is said to have been the main argument for repealing the Morgenthau plan by the US government.

Absolute bullshit.
Stop coming out with such baseless rubbish.

 

[Graehame]

Cook, it's probably a waste of time to try to educate you, since you seem so resistant to the process, but for the information of others on this site who might otherwise be swayed by your ignorant posturing, I've posted some links below-- actually 2 links followed by an anthology of links.

http://http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics and History/us_war_crimes/Eisenhowers_death_camps.htm

http://http://rense.com/general46/germ.htm

http://http://www.whale.to/b/starvation_of_germans.html

 

[Fletch]

Absolute bullshit.
Stop coming out with such baseless rubbish.

With respect, disprove it.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I do remember tales of thousands of Germans dying under French captivity after the war. With regards British and American captivity, I dont know, its not sommit I've read about.

 

[Cook]

With respect, disprove it.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I do remember tales of thousands of Germans dying under French captivity after the war. With regards British and American captivity, I dont know, its not sommit I've read about.

No Numbnuts, if you want to come out with such nonsense the onus is on you to prove it.

Since Allied Prisoner of War Camps were well documented, with the names of all prisoners detsailed recorded, all deaths in custardy likewise recored and reported to the International Red Cross, who had full and unrestricted access to all Allied POW Camps you will have your work cut out for you.

Try doing even the most basic research into a subject and stop coming out with ridiculous, baseless and frankly annoying statements.

 

[Cook]

I must be tired.

Look people, you can come out with whatever conspiracy theory you want to support your moral equivalency theory but unless you have a shred of evidence to back your claims, and produce that shed, you are just peddling nonsense.

 

[BlairWitch749]

I must be tired.

Look people, you can come out with whatever conspiracy theory you want to support your moral equivalency theory but unless you have a shred of evidence to back your claims, and produce that shed, you are just peddling nonsense.

If you read Sepp Lainer's account of being in allied prison camps in france, its pretty gruesome... not dachau, but a mini andersonville for sure

 

[Cook]

If you read Sepp Lainer's account of being in allied prison camps in france, its pretty gruesome... not dachau, but a mini andersonville for sure

You don’t think that maybe, just maybe a warrant officer in the Waffen SS from the Das Reich SS Panzer Division could possibly be a slightly unreliable source?

Just a possibility you know…

Try the previously mentioned sourses of records for the period.

 

[loughery111]

You don’t think that maybe, just maybe a warrant officer in the Waffen SS from the Das Reich SS Panzer Division could possibly be a slightly unreliable source?

Just a possibility you know…

Try the previously mentioned sourses of records for the period.

Most unbiased accounts of the camps suggest that they were, shall we say, "less than ideal" conditions. However, none of the available evidence suggests that this was in any way a concerted policy on the part of the Allies. Rather, there seems to have been a combination of inadequate oversight allowing purely local abuses and a simple underestimation of what would be needed to safely house, feed, and clothe several million POW's. The problems were fixed quickly and oversight was established quickly. A few thousand people died in the camps of malnutrition-related illnesses, but most who suffered were still able to hold out until food shipments began pouring in in early (i think) 1946. Outside the camps, the documentation is much less thorough, and it's believed that a few tens of thousands of people may have died.

To sum up, the US could have done a hell of a lot worse in administering such a thoroughly shattered country, and the unintentional deaths of even this number of people in no way provide the basis for a moral equivalence between the Axis and the Allies.

 

[Sol Zagato]

As I recall, the French used this sort of thing to encourage enlistment in the Foreign Legion.

Specifically in the US occupation zone, wiki has to say the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan
"Conditions in Germany reached their lowest point in 1947. Living conditions were considered worse in 1947 than in 1945 or 1946. At an average ration of 1040 calories a day, malnutrition was at its worst stage in post-war Germany. Herbert Hoover asserted that this amount of rations was hardly more than the amount which caused thousands in the Nazi concentration camps to die from starvation. "
Ref: John Dietrich. The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet Influence on American Postwar Policy (2002)
This is how civilians were living, dunno about the POW camps.


JCS 1067:
http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/ga3-450426.pdf

is somewhat thick reading, but the US government attitude was to let them starve. Do read the whole document if you have the time, there are some other nasty quotes besides these.
Under #16 on page 6:
"Except as may be necessary to carry out these objectives, you will take no steps (a) looking toward the economic rehabilitation of Germany, or (b) designed to maintain or strengthen the German economy."

'These objectives' are outlined at the bottom of page 2 of the PDF, under #4. In summary, the objectives were letting the Germans know they were all responsible for Nazi aggression and crimes, keeping a firm and aloof distance between US troops and the population, the deindustrialization/demilitarization of Germany, and finally restitution to other nations.

Also, #21 on page 7
21. "You will estimate requirements of supplies necessary to prevent starvation or widespread disease or such civil unrest as would endanger the occupying forces."
Get that? Don't starve them so much that they have successful riots.

When word got out back to the states, and when the Soviets started installing communist governments in eastern Europe, this policy was abandoned.

SUMMARY: There were hard feelings on the allied side. They were kind of sick of German militarism.

 

[loughery111]

As I recall, the French used this sort of thing to encourage enlistment in the Foreign Legion.

Specifically in the US occupation zone, wiki has to say the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan
"Conditions in Germany reached their lowest point in 1947. Living conditions were considered worse in 1947 than in 1945 or 1946. At an average ration of 1040 calories a day, malnutrition was at its worst stage in post-war Germany. Herbert Hoover asserted that this amount of rations was hardly more than the amount which caused thousands in the Nazi concentration camps to die from starvation. "
Ref: John Dietrich. The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet Influence on American Postwar Policy (2002)
This is how civilians were living, dunno about the POW camps.


JCS 1067:
http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/ga3-450426.pdf

is somewhat thick reading, but the US government attitude was to let them starve. Do read the whole document if you have the time, there are some other nasty quotes besides these.
Under #16 on page 6:
"Except as may be necessary to carry out these objectives, you will take no steps (a) looking toward the economic rehabilitation of Germany, or (b) designed to maintain or strengthen the German economy."

'These objectives' are outlined at the bottom of page 2 of the PDF, under #4. In summary, the objectives were letting the Germans know they were all responsible for Nazi aggression and crimes, keeping a firm and aloof distance between US troops and the population, the deindustrialization/demilitarization of Germany, and finally restitution to other nations.

Also, #21 on page 7
21. "You will estimate requirements of supplies necessary to prevent starvation or widespread disease or such civil unrest as would endanger the occupying forces."
Get that? Don't starve them so much that they have successful riots.

When word got out back to the states, and when the Soviets started installing communist governments in eastern Europe, this policy was abandoned.

SUMMARY: There were hard feelings on the allied side. They were kind of sick of German militarism.

The Morgenthau Plan was more or less dead on arrival and was never really implemented... it just took a while for it to be formally scrapped. That said, the US certainly did not move quite as quickly as humanly possible to feed Germany. It did, however, move pretty damn quickly. Need sleep now, will post more tomorrow.

 

[Sol Zagato]

The Morgenthau Plan was more or less dead on arrival and was never really implemented... it just took a while for it to be formally scrapped. That said, the US certainly did not move quite as quickly as humanly possible to feed Germany. It did, however, move pretty damn quickly. Need sleep now, will post more tomorrow.

JCS 1067 is the extent to which the Morgenthau Plan was impleminted, as far as I can tell. There do seem to be some indications that people (like Lucius Clay) were making headway against it in Fall 1946.


Now, back to the original subject. How can you avoid the Holocaust and have a somewhat recognizable WW II?

 

[Fletch]

No Numbnuts, if you want to come out with such nonsense the onus is on you to prove it.

Since Allied Prisoner of War Camps were well documented, with the names of all prisoners detsailed recorded, all deaths in custardy likewise recored and reported to the International Red Cross, who had full and unrestricted access to all Allied POW Camps you will have your work cut out for you.

Try doing even the most basic research into a subject and stop coming out with ridiculous, baseless and frankly annoying statements.

You know something, civility costs nothing, arsewipe. Your being about as civil as Hitler in a Synagogue and I find it grossly offensive to be called in your next post a 'conspiracy theorist', let alone numbnuts in this one. All because I stated I read somewhere of the conditions in French camps post-war. As to the Red Cross, this was as after the war, being the open-minded, well-read scholar you obviously are looking like, and not a twat, you will know the Red Cross never had access to German PoWs until 1946.

Fuck this.

Edit. Following a quick search online, I have got figures for you. link.

As I suspected, not comparable to the Nazis crimes, but mistreatment none the less. Mainly due to mismanagement rather than evil intent, mind. Of course, what the fuck is the point of me posting this as you'll no doubt see this as some form of Nazi trolling.

 

[altamiro]

I must be tired.

Look people, you can come out with whatever conspiracy theory you want to support your moral equivalency theory but unless you have a shred of evidence to back your claims, and produce that shed, you are just peddling nonsense.

If you read any moral equivalence between USA and Nazi germany in these posts you must be more tired than you think. Go to bed and sleep at least 12 hours, then read again.

Now, if you want to claim that all US and UK commanders were highly competent angels, that there were no numbsculls motivated by petty revenge and hate at all in the chain of command, that the logistics of supply chain didn't experience any screwups, and that the US government didn't need to (quite effectively) react to this problem by early 1946 - then you need even more sleep.

Feel free to report me to Ian. Despite your absolutely uncivilized behaviour I will not do so for now.

 

[PrairieVoice]

Ok, try another idea: what if the other countries that were occupied had resisted exploitation of the Jews the same way Denmark did?

Consider in WW2 when the Nazis told the Danish Jews to wear the yellow star ALL the Danes put on the star including the king. When the Nazis demanded the Danish hand over the Jews the Danish police refused. Later on when they did export the Danish Jews to the camps the Danish government kept track of them thru the Red Cross and many were returned. Norway did some of the same.

Compare that to France, Poland, Netheralnds, Hungary and elsewhere where they freely handed over Jews even before being asked and did nothing to protect them even though these Jews were their fellow citizens.

So what do you all think? If say Vichy France or the other countries leaders had protested how Jews were treated do you think that would have made a difference?

 

[BlairWitch749]

You don’t think that maybe, just maybe a warrant officer in the Waffen SS from the Das Reich SS Panzer Division could possibly be a slightly unreliable source?

Just a possibility you know…

Try the previously mentioned sourses of records for the period.

Why, he wasn't a war criminal, he was only a combat soldier, and his story mirrors a lot of other... basically not enough food, clothing or shelter, plus some abuse by the guards

Andersonville wasn't deliberate murder, it was just not properly provisioned and nobody gave a shit

 

[Geon]

Philosophy of Hitler and the Nazis

Regardless, of how badly German P.O.W.s were treated in various countries, the original question remains; Could the Holocaust be avoided?

First, In his controversial book: Hitler's Willing Executioners, the author discusses the underlying anti-semitism that had been simmering in German society for several centuries. This was one of the seeds of the Holocaust. Martin Luther himself wrote several tracts that were very anti-semitic in nature and helped reinforce this atmosphere.

Secondly, Hitler's own violent anti-semitism is a matter of record. In Mein Kampf he speaks of his fondest dream as "seeing Jews hang from ever lampost in Vienna." His writings attest to a deep hatred of the Jews.

Thirdly, the Nazi ideology was based on the occult idea of a master race (i.e. Aryan) which according to that ideology must one day take its rightful place as ruler of the world. (Several recent documentaries have highlighted this fact.) That meant the elimination of all other races. In Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer the author points out that to the Nazis there were only two kinds of peoples; the Aryans (Ubermensch) and everyone else (Untermensch).



Finally, the Nazis (like most dictatorships) needed a scapegoat whom could be blamed for Germany's defeat and humiliation byWorld War I and the Versailles Treaty. A dictatorship uses this trick often to divert attention from real problems onto an enemy real or imagined and the Jews fit the bill nicely. Therefore, to avoid the Holocaust the following would have had to occur.

1. No Hitler--This should be a no-brainer. Hitler was a rabid rascist who surrounded himself with other rabid rascists. Without him there is no focus for the hatred.
2. No humiliating Treaty of Versailles--The idea that Germany was "stabbed in the back" was a favorite myth the Nazis used, in conjunction with their idea of an international Jewish conspiracy meant to destroy Germany and the Aryan race.
3. No Thule group. The Thule group was a prime force behind the Nazi ideology of racial purity. Remove this and a critical leg of Nazi ideology falls by the wayside.

I offer these three ideas for discussion.

Respectfully,

Geon