Could the Holocaust been avoided?

My point was that if a dictatorial political party with over a 10-year history of racist invective against white people came to power in the U.S. & told us we were just being 'relocated', then a lot of us would be dragged out the door fighting. With butcher knives if necessary. Even against 4 cops with submachine guns, 1 guy with a butcher knife can take down 1 of 'em. You've just gotta be willing to die.

You know, everyone says stuff like this. People don't actually tend to do it. On the whole people are pretty easily cowed by a strong display of force- this applies to people, en masse of course. In a scenario where a minority was faced with what happened to the Jews, I doubt you'd see anything different. A few die-hards might try to fight but the majority? You're a family man, you've got your wife and kids to think about, you heard how the son of the nice family down the road tried something and got shot...no, no, better just be quiet and do what these maniacs say and maybe we'll be ok.

Incidentally whites in the US, being a vast majority group, don't really make a very good example. Try Asians in the US.
 
One thing many participants in this discussion have ignored is that Hitler surrounded himself with people who would listen to Hitler's rants then try to put into action those rants by the most radical means possible in order to curry favour with him. Hitler also encouraged his officials to fight amongst themselves to achieve what they saw as Hitler's wishes.

The Holocaust could've been avoided if there had been a few more pragmatic Nazi officials like Werner Best who rid Denmark of its Jews by tipping off the local authorities and turning a blind eye as the Jews crossed over from Denmark to Sweden and there had been a lot fewer people like Hans Frank, the Nazi overlord of the Government-General, whose answer to ridding his part of Poland of Jews was to exterminate them.

The other thing that could've avoided the Holocaust would've been if the local non-Jewish population had put up more resistance to the deportation of the Jews. Without the co-operation of much of the local population, the identification and the rounding up of the Jewish population in the Baltic states, France, Poland and other countries would've been virtually impossible because the Germans simply didn't have the manpower to do it themselves.

As the old cliche goes: "Evil triumphs when the good do nothing."
 
Malice,
Your wrong about the locals. They did something. They had their eyes on the property the Jews owned and couldnt wait to jump in and claim it for themselves. In several cases like in Poland when some surviving Jews DID come back to their old houses, the Poles who were squatting there refused to hand them back over and in some cases killed the Jews who tried.

Even today jewish families work to recover property like valuable artwork that was looted.

I've read about other cases where Jews hid their children with locals (after bribing them of course) and later on never told the children what had happened to their parents.
 
Anti-Jewish laws and sentiment were not that uncommon at the time, and compared to the pogroms in the commonly occurred in Russia or other parts of Eastern Europe, Kristallnacht was nothing special. Legal discrimination and occasional mob violence against Jews was within the realm of normalcy for the 1930's. The Jewish community had suffered pogroms and discrimination innumerable times in the past, and for a long time the Nazis just looked like more of the same. How would they know that this time, things were different?

I dont think a pogrom had happened for a long time, maybe 30-50 years or more and had never happened in Germany or France. I believe they had only happened in Russia.

You mentioned Krsitelnaught. I read that after it happened when the Jews tried to collect on insurance for their businesses they refused to give them money.

Also after the war most insurance companies also refused to pay claims on life insurance either.
 
The Holocaust could've been avoided if there had been a few more pragmatic Nazi officials like Werner Best who rid Denmark of its Jews by tipping off the local authorities and turning a blind eye as the Jews crossed over from Denmark to Sweden and there had been a lot fewer people like Hans Frank, the Nazi overlord of the Government-General, whose answer to ridding his part of Poland of Jews was to exterminate them.

The other thing that could've avoided the Holocaust would've been if the local non-Jewish population had put up more resistance to the deportation of the Jews. Without the co-operation of much of the local population, the identification and the rounding up of the Jewish population in the Baltic states, France, Poland and other countries would've been virtually impossible because the Germans simply didn't have the manpower to do it themselves.

As the old cliche goes: "Evil triumphs when the good do nothing."

Denmark managed to protect more Jews, simply because Nazis chose to keep Danes content. If their occupation policy was anywhere as harsh as that of Poland, or even France - Danes wouldn`t be so bold. In Poland if Jew was founded hiding in the house - all residents were killed, including women and children, so excuse me - but these two cases are incomparable. Besides - Poles were also subjected to policy of extermination (not on a holocaust scale, but still). Poland lost 6,000,000 civilians (half of them Jews) compared to 1,000 Danish civilians, or 300,000 French. Despite false, stereotypical image many Poles were actively helping Jews, risking their lives. They received more 'Righteous among the Nations' awards, than any other nationality for example.
 
Malice,
Your wrong about the locals. They did something. They had their eyes on the property the Jews owned and couldnt wait to jump in and claim it for themselves. In several cases like in Poland when some surviving Jews DID come back to their old houses, the Poles who were squatting there refused to hand them back over and in some cases killed the Jews who tried.

Even today jewish families work to recover property like valuable artwork that was looted.

I've read about other cases where Jews hid their children with locals (after bribing them of course) and later on never told the children what had happened to their parents.

Yes, I am aware that local people in occupied countries exploited the situation faced by the Jews by participating in the round up and killing of Jews, moving into their homes when they were evicted and so forth. However, it is worth bearing in mind that these people were as much a small minority as those who helped the Jews.

The simple truth is that most Holocaust survivors remarked that what shocked them was the fact that most people did nothing to help them. Then again, the consequences of helping could be very serious and those who actively helped to hand over the Jews to the Germans were rewarded, especially in Poland.
 
Denmark managed to protect more Jews, simply because Nazis chose to keep Danes content. If their occupation policy was anywhere as harsh as that of Poland, or even France - Danes wouldn`t be so bold. In Poland if Jew was founded hiding in the house - all residents were killed, including women and children, so excuse me - but these two cases are incomparable. Besides - Poles were also subjected to policy of extermination (not on a holocaust scale, but still). Poland lost 6,000,000 civilians (half of them Jews) compared to 1,000 Danish civilians, or 300,000 French. Despite false, stereotypical image many Poles were actively helping Jews, risking their lives. They received more 'Righteous among the Nations' awards, than any other nationality for example.

The brutal reality was that the severity of Nazi occupation policy had little, or no, impact upon the way in which the Jews in these countries were treated. However, the extent to which anti-Semitism was prevalent in various countries prior to the Second World War did reflect to a large extent the degree to which the Jews were persecuted. In a nutshell it was in the countries where anti-Semitism was rife before the war that the Jews suffered the most at the hands of the local people and the Germans.

The truth is that without the co-operation of the local people the Holocaust would've been nearly impossible simply because the Germans didn't have the manpower to enforce it themselves. Also, without the co-operation of local authorities and peoples, the Germans would not have been able to determine who to deport as the Jews of northern, western and southern Europe were fully integrated into the society around them whereas in eastern Europe this wasn't the case.
 
One thing many participants in this discussion have ignored is that Hitler surrounded himself with people who would listen to Hitler's rants then try to put into action those rants by the most radical means possible in order to curry favour with him. Hitler also encouraged his officials to fight amongst themselves to achieve what they saw as Hitler's wishes.

The Holocaust could've been avoided if there had been a few more pragmatic Nazi officials like Werner Best who rid Denmark of its Jews by tipping off the local authorities and turning a blind eye as the Jews crossed over from Denmark to Sweden and there had been a lot fewer people like Hans Frank, the Nazi overlord of the Government-General, whose answer to ridding his part of Poland of Jews was to exterminate them.

The other thing that could've avoided the Holocaust would've been if the local non-Jewish population had put up more resistance to the deportation of the Jews. Without the co-operation of much of the local population, the identification and the rounding up of the Jewish population in the Baltic states, France, Poland and other countries would've been virtually impossible because the Germans simply didn't have the manpower to do it themselves.

As the old cliche goes: "Evil triumphs when the good do nothing."

I won't speak for Poland or other countries but you're right about France, at least partially.

The Vichy Regime was not only a collaborationist entity, but also a counter-revolutionary regime which sought after the eradication of all symbols of the Republic and all people individually or collectively associated with the Republic, including Jews, since Antisemitism is a component of the French far-right ideology since 1875 at least. That's why Vichy, not only helped for the deportation of Jews (foreign Jews at first, but the French, assimilated Jews would have encountered the similar fate sooner or later), but initiated collective measures, including massive round-ups, before the Nazis asked for them. The infamous Rafle du Vel d'Hiv in 1942 is now a documented evidence of this.

However, the majority of French people were, at worst, indifferent to that policy and, at best, quite hostile to it, especially after the entire territory was occupied in late 1942. While many foreign Jews, especially children, have been hidden in farms, in Catholic or Protestant institutions, or by individuals, many ordinary people didn't felt like reporting their Jewish neighbours of refugees to the police. Inside the Vichy administration itself, some policemen or Gendarmes warned the Jews that a round-up would take place so that they could escape. That's the main reason why more that 70 % of the Jews living in France in 1939 survived the Shoah. Of course, France was not suffering a brutal, direct Nazi administration like in Poland. The country was also far less urban than, say, the Netherlands, and offered many places to hide in the countryside, in the mountains...
 
I dont think a pogrom had happened for a long time, maybe 30-50 years or more
There were a lot of them during the Russian Civil War, as well as a long series of pogroms between 1903-6. The Soviets, to their credit, were far better to the Jews than Czarist Russia. Most of the killing during the Civil War was done by the Whites, and on the rare occasions when a Red Army unit did that kind of thing said unit was harshly punished.

While most of the anti-Jewish violence in the interwar period tended to be smaller-scale than the Czarist/White state-sponsored pogroms, the idea of mob violence against Jews was still very fresh in everyone's collective memories.

and had never happened in Germany or France. I believe they had only happened in Russia.
"Never" might be a bit of a strong term considering the Hep-Hep riots, but it is a fair point that mass violence against Jews was not something that happened in the Kaiserreich or Weimar Republic. Granted, one can find more if you're willing to go back to the 18th century or further, but that's true of just about every nation in Europe.

Simply put, the Jews have dealt with violence and anti-Semitism in the past. A lot. Their standard responses were to move somewhere else, or just keep their heads down and ride things out. Prior to the outbreak of World War II, the Nazis have not done anything worse than, say, Czarist Russia. Without hindsight, the Jews have no reason to expect anything more than the same unpleasantness they had endured, off and on, for centuries.
 
The brutal reality was that the severity of Nazi occupation policy had little, or no, impact upon the way in which the Jews in these countries were treated.

That`s nonsense. How can this have no impact, if there`s death sentence on you and your family if you are caught helping Jews, compared to Nazis just ignoring that?

However, the extent to which anti-Semitism was prevalent in various countries prior to the Second World War did reflect to a large extent the degree to which the Jews were persecuted. In a nutshell it was in the countries where anti-Semitism was rife before the war that the Jews suffered the most at the hands of the local people and the Germans.
I can agree with that.

The truth is that without the co-operation of the local people the Holocaust would've been nearly impossible simply because the Germans didn't have the manpower to enforce it themselves. Also, without the co-operation of local authorities and peoples, the Germans would not have been able to determine who to deport as the Jews of northern, western and southern Europe were fully integrated into the society around them whereas in eastern Europe this wasn't the case.
Not in Poland. 600-800 thousands strong Nazi occupation force could do whatever they want in General Government. Besides - there was not such thing as local authorities, or collaborative organisations, and Germans run everything.
 
I guess I keep remembering the scene from "Schindler's List" where the Jews are bring put into ghettos and there are these people screaming "Goodbye Jews!" and throwing mud at them. This was before the Nazis became involved.

BTW, on a side note the nazis also went after the gypsies who have also been a persecuted group in Europe which I doubt anyone did anything to stop either.
 
No Numbnuts, if you want to come out with such nonsense the onus is on you to prove it.

Since Allied Prisoner of War Camps were well documented, with the names of all prisoners detsailed recorded, all deaths in custardy likewise recored and reported to the International Red Cross, who had full and unrestricted access to all Allied POW Camps you will have your work cut out for you.

Try doing even the most basic research into a subject and stop coming out with ridiculous, baseless and frankly annoying statements.

Since the main topic of the thread seems quiet right now I though I'd give my viewpoint on the quote above. I would very much like Cook to provide some sources for the information above. My reason for asking this is that I happen to know that at least one of the statements is wrong, and I wonder where he got that opinion from. Also, if that is wrong, then perhaps the rest might be wrong too....

I'm referring too the statement by Cook that the Red Cross had full and unrestricted access to Allied POW camps.

If you actually check (easy to check with google) you will find out that the German Red Cross was disbanded as soon as Germany surrendered since it had been infiltrated by the Nazi party, and therefore was automatically banned and had to be restarted in 1952. No humanitarian considerations were taken regarding the need for a Red Cross in occupied Germany. And it was needed, things were a bit tough for a few years.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,934463,00.html
http://www.german-films.de/app/filmarchive/film_view.php?film_id=1992

Now for the interesting part, if you check with the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which I presume is the organization you were referring to in your claim, they will tell you the following:
"The ICRC made approaches to the authorities of the four occupation zones and, in the autumn of 1945, it received authorization to send both relief and delegates into the French and British zones. On 4 February 1946, the ICRC was allowed to send relief into the American zone, and on 13 April 1946 it obtained permission to extend this activity to the Soviet zone."
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/57jnwx?opendocument

So for 9 months (the months just after the surrender when the number of prisoners was the largest, conditions were at their worst, and the Red Cross help would have saved the most lives) the ICRC was not even allowed to send Red Cross food packets to the the American POW camps, and it is not clear if they were allowed to visit after 9 months or if the ICRC delegates were shut out from the POW camps in the American zone for even longer than that.

Therefore I am very curious and hope you can tell us where you found the information that you based your statement regarding full and unrestricted access on?
 
Gullash,
I'm not sure about those issues but I know here in the US many German POW's decided to stay here in the US instead of going back to Germany so things could not have been so bad here.

I suppose though in europe where the food situation for both military and civilians was poor that rations for German POW's were given low priority. Plus given the fact that we were recently at was I have no doubt that sometimes guards decided to vent some anger or settle some old scores - especially on SS troops or other Nazis.
 

Lucian

Banned
I guess I keep remembering the scene from "Schindler's List" where the Jews are bring put into ghettos and there are these people screaming "Goodbye Jews!" and throwing mud at them. This was before the Nazis became involved.
Jews were put into Ghettos by Nazis, Ghettos were established by Nazis as well. Is this Hollywood movie really so terrible at history?

The other thing that could've avoided the Holocaust would've been if the local non-Jewish population had put up more resistance to the deportation of the Jews.
In Poland 1.7 million Poles were ethnically cleansed by Germans during the war and 2 million murdered, if they couldn't stop their own cleansing and mass murder why do you believe they could stop the Jewish one?
 

altamiro

Banned
Gullash,
I'm not sure about those issues but I know here in the US many German POW's decided to stay here in the US instead of going back to Germany so things could not have been so bad here.

I suppose though in europe where the food situation for both military and civilians was poor that rations for German POW's were given low priority. Plus given the fact that we were recently at was I have no doubt that sometimes guards decided to vent some anger or settle some old scores - especially on SS troops or other Nazis.

The situation Gullash refers to occurred in Germany, not in USA or Canada. Most POWs who ended up in allied POW camps in North America (meaning, those who were captured earlier in the war) were treated pretty decently and had boredom as main complaint, not mistreatments, and even there the camp authorities often tried to accomodate. Many POWs stayed because they came to actually like the country they were imprisoned in.

Those taken prisoner at the end of the war, especially officers, were a different story altogether. They were not separated by severity of war crimes they might have been implicated in, or by unit - regular Wehrmacht officers were just as much in danger of starvation as SS officers. The corruption was not at the individual guard level but at local commanders' level.
 
altamiro,
If I was a guard (especially if I was black) I'm not sure how nice I would be to a smirking SS officer who who was making wisecracks and who kept up the "Seig Heil" stuff.
 

altamiro

Banned
altamiro,
If I was a guard (especially if I was black) I'm not sure how nice I would be to a smirking SS officer who who was making wisecracks and who kept up the "Seig Heil" stuff.

Being "not nice" in a situation you describe is certainly breaking all rules of "professional" behavior, but one can understand that (although most SS officers in such situation preferred to keep quiet about their previous unit designation rather than making wisecracks).
Being an occupation officer and making a decision to put the inmates of the POW camps under your responsibility at under-survival rations, and the entire population around the camps at not much more calories per day, is another matter entirely. It's a decision necessarily made in cold blood.
 
altamiro,
If I was a guard (especially if I was black) I'm not sure how nice I would be to a smirking SS officer who who was making wisecracks and who kept up the "Seig Heil" stuff.

Actually its funny that you bring up black occupation troops. Actually they discovered that they were better treated in Germany than in the U.S., it might even have led to the black awakening and civil rights movement.
http://www.atlantic-times.com/archive_detail.php?recordID=1706
 
If countries like the United States, Canada or Australia had been less restrictive in accepting jewish refugees a lot less would have had to die, the 900 jewish passengers of the MS St. Louis who were denied the right of entry in several western countries and of whom many ended up in concentration camps after being forced to return is just one tragic example of many.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Actually its funny that you bring up black occupation troops. Actually they discovered that they were better treated in Germany than in the U.S., it might even have led to the black awakening and civil rights movement.
http://www.atlantic-times.com/archive_detail.php?recordID=1706

Wait...

You come into a long dead thread, one that you took part in while it was still breathing for THIS?

That's a Yellow Card.

DO NOT NECRO.

Learn it, Love it, Live it!
 
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